Project M Demo: Stage List Debate Thread for OTL

[Ugg]

A few friends and I are planning on running Project Melee weeklies that will team up with "The Lazy Blokes" tournament series which has been extremely successful relative to the current activity of the OTL. Hopefully Project M will bring a whole new wave of players to the OTL and help spice up the subforum that once was.

However, before doing so, we'll need to establish a ruleset. More importantly, though, a STAGE LIST.

This belongs here for a few reasons:

- There isn't really an established stage list.

- If point one is valid, it's definitely not accustomed for WiFi. We need to take this into account for when making a stage list for OTL.

- EVERYONE'S opinion will be voiced and listened to.

That said, there are a few topics we'll need to decide on:

One stage ban, or two?

How many neutral/CP stages?

What stages will make up the stage list?



OKAY. This is the "testing period" stage list. Anyone may argue it as they wish, and it gives us a good starting point.


Starters

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
PS2: M
Warioware: M
Skyworld: M
Pictochat: M
Dream Land: 64
Fountain of Dreams: Melee

Counter Picks

Temple: M
Pirate Ship
Rainbow Cruise
Delfino Plaza
Lylat Cruise
Port Town Aero Dive
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Meta Crystal
Yoshi's Island: Brawl
Halberd
Yoshi's Story: 64
Castle Siege
Jungle Japes
Corneria
Rumble Falls: M
SSE Jungle

Banned

Mario Circuit
Luigi's Mansion
75M
Temple
Onett
Fourside: M
Saffron City: 64


Let's hear everyone's thoughts!

 

[PwnerBren7]

I feel that there are so many great choices in stages. Due to so many choices, it would appear that two bans would seem efficient. Also I feel that a eleven neutrals should be an adequate amount while there can be many more CPs than that number.

Neutrals:
Yoshi's Story: 64
Battlefield
Final Destination: Melee
Dream Land: 64
Fountain of Dreams: Melee
Smashville
SSE Jungle
Rumble Falls: M
Pokemon Stadium 2: M
Meta Crystal
Wario Ware: M

YI:B, Halberd, Lylat and others are debatable as Neutrals but there are already enough neutrals and I feel as though they are not needed

Counterpick:
Temple: M
Skyworld: M
Rainbow Cruise
Delfino Plaza
Lylat Cruise
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Pictochat: M
Yoshi's Island: Brawl
Halberd
Jungle Japes
Castle Siege

PTAD, Corneria, and other stages should be banned due to aspects they have that don't work well with P:M's mechanics and other reasons

 

[Jimmyfosho]

some stages should be only for doubles like SSE jungle and Hyrule castle.

 

[Cubone]

Starters

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
PS2 : M
Warioware : M
Skyworld : M
Pictochat : M

Counter Picks

Temple: M
Pirate Ship
Rainbow Cruise
Delfino Plaza
Lylat Cruise
Port Town Aero Dive
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Meta Crystal
Yoshi's Island: Brawl
Halberd
Yoshi's Story: 64
Dream Land: 64
Fountain of Dreams: Melee
Castle Siege
Jungle Japes
Corneria

Doubles only CPs

Rumble Falls: M
SSE Jungle
Saffron City: 64

Banned

Mario Circuit
Luigi's Mansion
75M
Temple
Onett
Fourside: M

My opinion. Definitely with 2 stage bans.

Other variations I think that would be worth mentioning are moving Halberd and Yoshi's Island: Brawl to starters(making it a 9 starter list) and/or clearing out the doubles only. Move SSE: Jungle and Rumble Falls : M to cp and Saffron City to banned

 

[dualseeker]

I agree with what Bren says. 2 bans is an adequate amount for that many stages. I also agree with his stage list completely.

Some stages to be banned would be 75M, PTAD, And some others that could be problematic with P:M's gameplay mechanics. I wonder if Frigate Orpheon would be a good stage to include. Since P:M has a heavier gravity than Brawl does, I think Frigate has much more dangers because of the added gravity. The stage flip could potentially be even more dangerous. But, it might not be so bad as to impede gameplay... But that's just my opinion, though.

Mostly, though, all of the stages that Bren suggested would be pretty ideal. Although, we can always add to it in the future.

And I do like Jimmy's idea of double only stages, since some stages would be great for doubles play. Although, they don't need to be specifically for doubles only, but could be used for both, like SSE Jungle. It's great for doubles, but it is also a pretty good 1v1 stage. Although, stages like Hyrule, where kills can be slightly hard or difficult to get could be used as doubles stages, if we ever decide to have a doubles P:M tournament as well.

A few team stages could be:

SSE Jungle
Hyrule 64
Delfino plaza
Wario Ware: M
Fourside: M (possibly?)

Those are just a few opinions of mine.

Anyways, I hope this becomes a success ^__^. I'll be keeping active with this discussion. I'll check back on here tomorrow then ^__^.

 

[Cubone]

Everyone that is against PTAD should post real details so I can debunk them.

Mostly, though, all of the stages that Bren suggested would be pretty ideal. Although, we can always add to it in the future.

Stages are inherently legal, not the other way around. If anything stages should be removed if issues are found with them later.

Mario Circuit - Permanent walkoffs, the track overhead serves to make walkoff camping even worse due to protecting from aerial approaches.

Luigi's Mansion - Temporary cave of life and circle camping not to mention that the stage is huge.

75M - If you think this should be legal, your opinion shouldn't even count.

Temple - circle camping, huge stage, cave of life.

Saffron City: 64 - Huge stage, awkward layout similar to fourside. I could see it as a doubles only stage but not thats it.

Onett - Huge, awkward layout. Permanent walkoffs as well as having a sort of cave of life effect due to being able to tech the buildings.

Fourside: M - Huge stage and an awkward lay out that would promote time outs. Also with the way its split in half, DI'ing and teching the stage would be similar to a cave of life effect.

 

[Ugg]

Example stage list posted. Thoughts/discussions on individual stages begin!

 

[skaterbaj]

yeah seems fine to meeee

 

[tera twin]

I think Saffron should be a counterpick. Saffron is an evil stage for Lucas and Ness, however, I don't think banning an entire stage because of the inconvenience of two characters is right. There's this rule exactly for this problem in smash 64. Somebody should check the 64 boards and see if they can find it.

edit: oh i thought i saw saffron on the banned list. anyways, i haven't played in saffron extensively enough to debate about the stage being too big argument.

 

[dualseeker]

Everyone that is against PTAD should post real details so I can debunk them.

Well, as far as I know, PTAD's central platform doesn't have any ledges. The absence of ledges on a platform where characters are going to spend a majority of their time on could be made even more hazardous since P:M has heavier gravity mechanics. Characters who have poor horizontal recovery, such as Marth or Link, could have trouble getting back on stage, and be be susceptible to more damage from the road, or be much earlier.

Sure, PTAD has a few areas that have ledges, and have mostly no wholes, but the times the player arrives on one of the touchdown areas are infrequent and the time spent there is usually short. Characters like will have an easier time killing people like Link or ZSS, since their recoveries depend on tethers, and since you fall faster, it could lead to an even earlier death for those characters.

Although, this stage has great benefits for people with great recoveries, like Pit or Metaknight, who won't really have that much trouble getting back on stage. They would easily be able to return to the stage if they are knocked off, and they would have an easy time hampering people from getting back. While these characters would get the usual advantages of picking PTAD, the benefits would be doubled due to P:M's heavy gravity mechanics. It would kind of be like picking a run-off stage and have DDD as your opponent. DDD would be able to kill you much faster and would be almost guaranteed a kill if he grabs you. There would be less of a chance for the road to keep a player from losing a stock, and even if a character were to be hit by the road, they might not even be able to get back up until they are either at a high percentile, or the main platform comes close to the ground.

Basically, the characters who already have a bad horizontal recovery, or have trouble getting back on stage, would easily be beaten on this stage. And characters who have an extremely versatile recovery would be difficult to beat, more difficult than it should be.

Those are my thoughts anyways. Although we can keep PTAD and see how it goes at first ^__^.

Although, if PTAD's been changed or the stage isn't that detrimental to characters with bad recoveries, please let me know. I kind of don't want to be making points about an old version of the stage ^^;.

 

[Cubone]

Well, as far as I know, PTAD's central platform doesn't have any ledges. The absence of ledges on a platform where characters are going to spend a majority of their time on could be made even more hazardous since P:M has heavier gravity mechanics. Characters who have poor horizontal recovery, such as Marth or Link, could have trouble getting back on stage, and be be susceptible to more damage from the road, or be much earlier.

CP quality right there not ban criteria.

Sure, PTAD has a few areas that have ledges, and have mostly no wholes, but the times the player arrives on one of the touchdown areas are infrequent and the time spent there is usually short. Characters like will have an easier time killing people like Link or ZSS, since their recoveries depend on tethers, and since you fall faster, it could lead to an even earlier death for those characters.

Except they will be bouncing off the road instead of falling to death more often than not.

Although, this stage has great benefits for people with great recoveries, like Pit or Metaknight, who won't really have that much trouble getting back on stage. They would easily be able to return to the stage if they are knocked off, and they would have an easy time hampering people from getting back. While these characters would get the usual advantages of picking PTAD, the benefits would be doubled due to P:M's heavy gravity mechanics. It would kind of be like picking a run-off stage and have DDD as your opponent. DDD would be able to kill you much faster and would be almost guaranteed a kill if he grabs you. There would be less of a chance for the road to keep a player from losing a stock, and even if a character were to be hit by the road, they might not even be able to get back up until they are either at a high percentile, or the main platform comes close to the ground.

Once again, a CP quality for those characters. Lol. Its nothing like getting walk off CG'ed by DDD,which would affect a much larger portion of the cast for one thing and leads to certain death. If they hit the road anytime around and definitely after 15% they should be able to get back on the platform, and if they hit below that they'll bounce once and hit it again and then be able to get back up.

Basically, the characters who already have a bad horizontal recovery, or have trouble getting back on stage, would easily be beaten on this stage. And characters who have an extremely versatile recovery would be difficult to beat, more difficult than it should be.

CP Quality! CP Quality! CP Quality! Also they don't have to go to the ledge where an opponent will be waiting for them. If they know they can't get past them they can opt to land closer to the middle of the road, bounce off and recover through the stage.

Those are my thoughts anyways. Although we can keep PTAD and see how it goes at first ^__^.

Although, if PTAD's been changed or the stage isn't that detrimental to characters with bad Smilies




[More]
recoveries, please let me know. I kind of don't want to be making points about an old version of the stage ^^;.

Comments in green.

 

[PwnerBren7]

I'd imagine you want to define CP Quality before using it as the basis for your entire argument. My points are pretty much the same as Dual's but I would just like to add on that due to a lack of ledges some character recoveries will go through the platform even those that appear to be landing on it. In a game that has mechanics to make recovering require great skill and perfection, there is no need for a stage which further challenges recoveries and invalidates some recovery options.

EDIT: How can you consider perfectly balanced stages with neutral qualities, such as Yoshi's Melee, FoD, and Dreamland 64, counter picks....? Also on the current lists the Neutral to CP ratio is ridiculous... One thing I like about Cubone's list are the doubles only stages. These are good to have, although Rumble Falls isn't even that big. Finally Corneria and PTAD do not seem to work well with P:M mechanics in my perspective, although I'd have Corneria over PTAD any day.

 

[Ugg]

Cubone and I came to agreement on the list in the OP and we ultimately decided to get rid of the doubles only section, however that's up for debate.

Also, how many neutrals would you suggest?

 

[Cubone]

I'd imagine you want to define CP Quality before using it as the basis for your entire argument. My points are pretty much the same as Dual's but I would just like to add on that due to a lack of ledges some character recoveries will go through the platform even those that appear to be landing on it. In a game that has mechanics to make recovering require great skill and perfection, there is no need for a stage which further challenges recoveries and invalidates some recovery options.

EDIT: How can you consider perfectly balanced stages with neutral qualities, such as Yoshi's Melee, FoD, and Dreamland 64, counter picks....? Also on the current lists the Neutral to CP ratio is ridiculous... One thing I like about Cubone's list are the doubles only stages. These are good to have, although Rumble Falls isn't even that big. Finally Corneria and PTAD do not seem to work well with P:M mechanics in my perspective, although I'd have Corneria over PTAD any day.

CP Quality - Feature that favors some characters and provides an obstacle for others without completely invalidating that charater.

The lack of ledges by no means makes it an auto loss for anyone.

Yoshi's, FoD, DL64 all feature basically the same things as Battlefied does with small differences (FoD's moving plats, Yoshi's slants and Randall and boht are basically minature BFs. DL64 has wind and tends to be a larger BF.

Corneria was legal in melee.

 

[Juushichi]

Was and all of them have different boundaries/blastzones. I think they had diff platform heights too.

 

[Cubone]

Its still pretty much just scaling the entire stage. How is having 4 stages that similar beneficial?

Also, how many starters do people think we should have? With a larger list I could see adding some of those stages, but you can't just add 2 of them without anything different, which means we're looking at 9 or 11 starters.

 

[professor mgw]

For starters:

Final Destination
Project M: Temple
Battlefield
Skyworld
Smashville

(just my list)

 

[Revven]

Just wanted to chime in on two stages that might seem unchanged but actually have been changed:

PTAD: Cars and that one wall no longer have ridiculous KB, iirc the cars don't kill you until 135%. Not that that matters for what the argument is but that's what's been changed.

Pirate Ship: Bombs have less knockback, catapult has less knockback, and bow has less knockback. Basically, still hazardous but not as ridiculous as before.

Keep these changes in mind when discussing these two stages. I'm actually also enjoying reading people discuss stage legality in PM.

 

[Ugg]

Just wanted to chime in on two stages that might seem unchanged but actually have been changed:

PTAD: Cars and that one wall no longer have ridiculous KB, iirc the cars don't kill you until 135%. Not that that matters for what the argument is but that's what's been changed.

Pirate Ship: Bombs have less knockback, catapult has less knockback, and bow has less knockback. Basically, still hazardous but not as ridiculous as before.

Keep these changes in mind when discussing these two stages. I'm actually also enjoying reading people discuss stage legality in PM.

We've realized the PTAD changes, but not the Pirate Ship. Thanks for informing us! We're enjoying discussing it and creating our own stage list. :D

 

[PwnerBren7]

I just wanted to add something that may be useful to our debates/final decisions. This is the somewhat-official Pound V P:M stagelist posted by JCaesar.

Stagelist:
Starters:
Battlefield
Dreamland 64
Fountain of Dreams
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium 2
Smashville
Yoshi's Story

Counterpicks:
Wario Ware (singles only)
Metal Cavern (singles only)
SSE Jungle (doubles only)
Temple:M (doubles only)
Yoshi's Island: Brawl
Rumble Falls+
Halberd
Brinstar

Main thing to notice is it's significantly smaller than most of our ideas. Any opinions?

 

[Ugg]

Delfino, Lylat, Castle Siege, Picto, Frigate, Skyworld are illegal to name a few. No thanks.

 

[PwnerBren7]

Delfino, Lylat, Castle Siege, Picto, Frigate, Skyworld are illegal to name a few. No thanks.

Well yeah some of the bans are odd... but I don't think we shouldn't have such extremities such as PTAD and Corneria.

 

[Cubone]

Mute City is comparable to PTAD and was legal in melee as was Corneria. Being able to tech the wall removes the issue of having a permanent wall there in the first place.

and again Stages are inherently LEGAL post why it should be banned not "I think". Burden of proof lies with whoever wants to ban it not the other way around.

and as far as the Pound 5 stagelist goes, its bad. Everyone involved with P:M did a great job on the game but that stage list makes the work go to waste that they put into the stages.

 

[PwnerBren7]

Banned

Mario Circuit
Luigi's Mansion
75M
Temple
Onett
Fourside: M

Both Dual and I have given you points on why PTAD should be banned and the only counters you've given are a bunch of "CP Qualities" and other attempts at dodging the facts. Mute City's cars were garbage compared to PTAD's, Mute City didn't have a hitbox on a vertical wall, and Mute City's destination zones were flat.
EDIT: Also Melee had way fewer stages to work with.
EDIT 2:

Spoiler

I need to read more

Regardless my points still stand.

 

[Cubone]

Everyone that is against PTAD should post real details so I can debunk them.



Stages are inherently legal, not the other way around. If anything stages should be removed if issues are found with them later.

Mario Circuit - Permanent walkoffs, the track overhead serves to make walkoff camping even worse due to protecting from aerial approaches.

Luigi's Mansion - Temporary cave of life and circle camping not to mention that the stage is huge.

75M - If you think this should be legal, your opinion shouldn't even count.

Temple - circle camping, huge stage, cave of life.

Saffron City: 64 - Huge stage, awkward layout similar to fourside. I could see it as a doubles only stage but not thats it.

Onett - Huge, awkward layout. Permanent walkoffs as well as having a sort of cave of life effect due to being able to tech the buildings.

Fourside: M - Huge stage and an awkward lay out that would promote time outs. Also with the way its split in half, DI'ing and teching the stage would be similar to a cave of life effect.

Based on your statement, you should tell us all why you believe that these stages should be banned then. Both Dual and I have given you points on why PTAD should be banned and the only counters you've given are a bunch of "CP Qualities" and other attempts at dodging the facts. Mute City's cars were garbage compared to PTAD's, Mute City didn't have a hitbox on a vertical wall, and Mute City's destination zones were flat.

1st off -Learn to read.

Dual's argument was lack of ledges, which is an obstacle to some characters but doesn't make anything an unwinnable MU for them. Not to mention he went and used characters that aren't in the demo for his proof. Bouncing off the road also gives you another option to get back onstage rather then only being able to go for the ledge.

Your arguments:
Stage is too big.
The main plat is roughly the size of FD and the blast zones are smaller.

Car combos lolol:
Only at low percents and only one car combos into the one behind it. Even at 0% you have time to jump and get away from the cars before you fall back into them (Fastfallers might not, but catering to them is scrub mentality.)

Wall:
Doesn't kill. Its in a set spot, learn it and take advantage of it.

Track combos:
1 section of the track combos for 30% (only 2 hits). Like the wall, its a set spot so learn it and avoid it.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Okay, time to debunk some of this nonsense.

Yoshi's Story, BF, DL64, and FoD may all follow the 3 platform layout, but they play VERY differently.
a. Yoshi's story:Melee has small boundaries both vertically and horizontally, a medium central platform length, low 1st AND 2nd level platforms, has a wall to recover with, has slanted edges to make edgeguarding more difficult for some characters, and of course...has randall (which is on a predictable timer btw). The platform layout changes the dynamic of certain matchups as it allows certain moves to hit through the platforms that wouldn't reach BF platforms (or just cover MORE of the platform, which is a great benefit for tech chases). The platforms are also above the ledge, which helps some characters get around ledge pressure (Falco can ledgehop and land on the platform for instance)

b. DL64 has one of the highest ceilings in the game, and horizontal blastzones to match. Again there is a wall to help recover with (not a large wall, but it's still there), and the 1st and 2nd level platforms are both higher than BF. The central platform is very large as well, making this a much better alternative to BF for more mobile characters. The wind is a minor issue, but it still screws with spacing oriented characters occasionally (grr Marth).

c. FoD is hardly even compatible to BF. With the 1st level platforms going anywhere from almost YS height to in the ground there's really no comparison to be made. For large portions of time the platforms will be low enough to land on from a shorthop. More notably, most characters have a part of their body ABOVE the platforms while standing under them during portions of the match. The top platform is also the same height as Yoshi's Story's top platform (lower than BF). The boundaries are medium in size, but the main platform is one of the smallest main platforms in the game. This combined with the obtrusive nature of low platforms and you have a stage where just MOVING is a difficulty for some characters.


Whether or not these stages should be neutrals is debatable (unless your okay with having a lot of neutrals). But making them counterpicks solely because they're "similar to battlefield" is nonsense

 

[dualseeker]

@Cubone: Sure, I know that characters won't have an unwinnable MU if they go to PTAD. But characters that originaly have advantages (not mentioning any names since I don't know which character I stated that isn't in the demo

Spoiler

prays its not Pit

) on PTAD in Brawl will have their advantages doubled or even tripled. Recovering in Melee is MUCH harder than it is in Brawl, and it can punish harshly for flawed recoveries. Sure, the road is there, but it adds unneeded damage, and if they do get bounced up back onto the stage, their opponent will most likely be waiting to punish. Airdodging won't help much either, since it can also be severely punished. Considering that players have to be above the platform before the game will even let them land on it, it could lead to many punishes. Even if the road isn't that big of a problem, it can cause unneeded damage. Where as characters that have good recoveries wouldn't have to worry, and when I say better, I mean WAY better than most, like Pit's or MK's recovery in Brawl.

And Mute City was a good stage, but that stage had generally more room to move around. And the stop points would always stop, you wouldn't skip them, like what PTAD does. PTAD's platform randomly chooses when to stop, and I think it even varies how long it stays on the ground. So, in PTAD, you don't know if it's going to stop in time for you to take less damage. While Mute City's was pretty predictable, and you could plan your strategy better. Not to mention the cars in Mute City were actually destructible... Fewer Cars = Profit XD (doesn't really matter, but it was lulzy that you could make cars go boom in Melee XD).

I'm not saying PTAD is a bad stage, but P:M's mechanics makes the hazards worse and harder to deal with. Characters who have a hard time on it already would have an even harder time. I know that you take characters to CP's to hamper them and give you an advantage, but PTAD would make the characters have a broken advantage and a horrible disadvantage, which is something CP's shouldn't do. CP's should hamper a character just a little, but not so much as to make said character be forced to take damage/have a slight chance of not recovering at all/getting run over.

But, if you want to keep PTAD in, go ahead. I just think that it would cause problems and give characters unfair advantages.

EDIT: I get the feeling that PTAD has somehow drastically changed. If it has can someone please tell me the changes? If it has changed, then yeah, it would be a stage to consider.

 

[Cubone]

I realize that FoD, DL64 and Yoshi's don't play exactly the same as battlefied but I still find that its still too close to have all 4 on the starter list. I see all 3 as starter materials but with each one you add I feel that something different needs to added along side it.

@Dual The only chars you mentioned the first time that are in are Marth and Link. Trying to get back to the ledge on any stage is going to lead to you taking damage more than likely with the vicious edgeguarding that exists in P:M. Being able to bounce off the road and take 15% would be favorable to trying to recover against say, Sheik and getting faired which is more than likely ending in a stock loss for you. Bouncing off the road can lead to you landing anywhere on the stage, I'm sure you'll get punished for it but you still have the chance to DI the other way from your waiting opponent and evade them. Its not like you hit the road and its an automatic hit for them.


EDIT: I could actually see adding all 3 of them alongside Halberd.

 

[Ugg]

I would probably like a 9 or 11 starter list at this point.

 

[Knubs.]

EDIT: I get the feeling that PTAD has somehow drastically changed. If it has can someone please tell me the changes? If it has changed, then yeah, it would be a stage to consider.

Just wanted to chime in on two stages that might seem unchanged but actually have been changed:

PTAD: Cars and that one wall no longer have ridiculous KB, iirc the cars don't kill you until 135%. Not that that matters for what the argument is but that's what's been changed.

Pirate Ship: Bombs have less knockback, catapult has less knockback, and bow has less knockback. Basically, still hazardous but not as ridiculous as before.

Some noted changes.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

This is, objectively, the best possible rule-set for Project M:

SUPER SMASH BROS. PROJECT M DEMO RULES:

LEGAL STAGE LIST:
Battlefield
Brinstar
Castle Seige
Delfino Plaza
Dreamland
Final Destination
Fountain of Dreams
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Lylat Cruise
Metal Cavern
Onett
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Pokemon Stadium 2
Port Town Aero Drive
Rainbow Cruise
Rumble Falls
Saffron City
Skyworld
Smashville
SSE: Jungle
Temple: M
WarioWare Inc.
Yoshi's Island
Yoshi's Story

BANNED STAGE LIST:
75m
Corneria
Fourside
Mario Circuit
Temple​

GENERAL RULES:

• Items are set to off.
• Stock and Time are set to 4 stock and 8 minutes respectively.
• Regular sets are best of 3 matches (Losers, Winners and Grand Finals sets are best of 5 matches).
• After a match has been called, if a player is 2 minutes late he will receive a warning. At 4 minutes late, he will be given a loss for the first game of the set. After 6 minutes, he will be given a loss of the entire set.
• Any stage may be played on so long as both players and the tournament host agree to it, including banned stages.
• Timed our matches will be determined by the remaining number of stocks, then percentage of the current stock. In the event of a stock and percentage tie, replay that match. Any Sudden Death match is strictly not to be played.

ADDITIONAL RULES FOR TEAM PLAY:

• Life Stealing is allowed.
• Team Attack is set to on.

SET FORMAT/COUNTER-PICK SYSTEM:
1. Blind picks character selection.
2. Players 1 strikes 7 stages from the Legal Stage List, Player 2 then strikes 7 of the remaining stages. All of the current remaining stages are considered "Counter-Pick Stages" for the set.
3. Player 1 strikes 5 of the remaining stages, Player 2 strikes 6 of the remaining stages, and Player 1 finally strikes the second and third to last remaining stages.
4. Match 1 is played on the last remaining, un-strike stage after steps 2 and 3.
5. The losing player of the preceding match picks a Counter-Pick Stage to be played on for the next match.
6. The winning player of the preceding match picks a character.
7. The losing player of the preceding match picks a character.
8. The next match is played.
• Repeat 5-8 for all consecutive matches as necessary until the set is complete.

OTHER:

• Controller ports are determined by Rock-Paper-Scissors if there is a dispute.
• All people are responsible for their own controller settings/name tag and must make sure they are set before the match begins. Both players must agree to restart a match on account of a controller problem.
• Unnecessary delays in a set are discouraged. This can occur before (not playing a match), during (taking an unnecessary amount of time to counter-pick) and after (not reporting the match's results) a set that has been called.
• Wireless controllers (including Wii Remotes and Classic Controllers) are discouraged because of interference, unreliability (battery life) and time hindrance.

 

[Ghostbone]

This is, objectively, the best possible rule-set for Project M:

Don't say objectively when it's just your opinion .

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm doing that just to annoy people, Ghost

But seriously, I can back up all of the decisions I made with that list wayyyyy past simple preference.

I can explain why Hybrid Stage List Striking is better than the current, static, starter/counter-pick system. I can explain why stages that are "gay", "require a slightly different play-style" and/or "aren't battlefield clones" should still be legal. I can explain why Corneria is broken (unless the guns get removed in the patch) and why Onett/Jungle Japes/etc... aren't.

Try me, people who disagree

 

[Euclid]

I'm doing that just to annoy people, Ghost.

Another way of saying, "I'm an idiot for thinking I matter," on the internet :D

 

[JCaesar]

Can I just say that the Pound V stagelist is extremely small for simplicity's sake more than anything else. It's going to be a large and hectic tournament and a small stagelist will help it run smoothly, as well as eliminate any issues people might have with some of the more questionable stages. It will be the first time that a lot of people play Project M so I wanted to keep it simple and clean and uncontroversial so everyone can get a good first impression of Project M. I modeled it after the Pound V Melee stagelist.

I will definitely be using a much more liberal stagelist for locals and tourneys where Project M is the main event.

 

[Cubone]

I'm doing that just to annoy people, Ghost

But seriously, I can back up all of the decisions I made with that list wayyyyy past simple preference.

I can explain why Hybrid Stage List Striking is better than the current, static, starter/counter-pick system. I can explain why stages that are "gay", "require a slightly different play-style" and/or "aren't battlefield clones" should still be legal. I can explain why Corneria is broken (unless the guns get removed in the patch) and why Onett/Jungle Japes/etc... aren't.

Try me, people who disagree

Problem with that idea is the fact whoever strikes first not only gets an extra strike but also get to ultimately decide where to start from the last 3 stages. Not to mention it also further complicates/lengthens the striking procedure (not that this in itself is a huge problem provided people know what they're doing.)

I also fail to see how Corneria is a bigger problem than Onett and Saffron

 

[MonkUnit]

Onett is a permanent walkoff. That's the main issue. Also, permanent walls.

 

[Ugg]

Can I just say that the Pound V stagelist is extremely small for simplicity's sake more than anything else. It's going to be a large and hectic tournament and a small stagelist will help it run smoothly, as well as eliminate any issues people might have with some of the more questionable stages. It will be the first time that a lot of people play Project M so I wanted to keep it simple and clean and uncontroversial so everyone can get a good first impression of Project M. I modeled it after the Pound V Melee stagelist.

I will definitely be using a much more liberal stagelist for locals and tourneys where Project M is the main event.

Thanks for clearing that up, haha, we were really wondering what was up. That does make sense, though!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Problem with that idea is the fact whoever strikes first not only gets an extra strike but also get to ultimately decide where to start from the last 3 stages.

Would you be able to suggest an alternative? I had a feeling I had worked out the striking order poorly...

I also fail to see how Corneria is a bigger problem than Onett and Saffron

Jigglypuff 100-0s almost everyone there by pound camping on the lower gun with a percentage lead. What on Earth is wrong with Saffron?

Onett is a permanent walkoff. That's the main issue. Also, permanent walls.

It isn't permanent, it's interrupted on a regular basis by cars. Walk-offs are also high-risk, high-reward in a Melee environment, and thus balanced by default anyway.

The walls aren't a problem now that Fox has lost his wave-shine infinites, and the platform lay-out prevents camping the middle of the stage from being too strong a camping position.

Another way of saying, "I'm an idiot for thinking I matter," on the internet :D

Well aren't you a rude one.

 

[Cubone]

Would you be able to suggest an alternative? I had a feeling I had worked out the striking order poorly...

Jigglypuff 100-0s almost everyone there by pound camping on the lower gun with a percentage lead. What on Earth is wrong with Saffron?

It isn't permanent, it's interrupted on a regular basis by cars. Walk-offs are also high-risk, high-reward in a Melee environment, and thus balanced by default anyway.

The walls aren't a problem now that Fox has lost his wave-shine infinites, and the platform lay-out prevents camping the middle of the stage from being too strong a camping position.

To make it simple you would have to add/cut a stage and have the list as a whole being odd. The second person striking would also need 1 to take one of the first's somewhere in the process.

For Corneria doesn't that fall under stalling? Especially if Puff is the only one exploiting it.

Saffron I'm really on the fence about due to the awkward layout and the fact that its just a huge stage.

Onett I have issues with those same two points, as well as the walkoffs (the cars may interrupt but camping them is still an issue.) and an effect similar to a cave of life where all they have to do is DI down and tech the buildings.