Practicing SHFFLing and other

[SmokedCarpenter]

Not sure if this is the right place for this thread (I'm new to smashboards and forum layouts in general) but if it is I'd like to ask you guys some of the best ways to practice shorthopping, fastfalling, and L-cancelling.

Basically I've been playing smash since it was released but never competitively or anything. This is my first attempt at learning these advanced tactics and stuff, so it's been tough so far lol.

I've been practicing shorthopping with Peach, Captain Falcon, and Marth. (I haven't decided on a main yet but I'm thinking one of those three, but suggestions for noob friendly characters would be appreciated!) It was surprisingly tough at first but now I can pretty much do it with all three of them, it's still a challenge doing it in a live game environment however (I tend to clench and push the buttons a lot harder in game so it's harder to shorthop).

I watched a video on youtube suggesting to pick fox in training mode and down air, L-cancel, and down+b. If the combo says 2 or more then you L-cancelled, if not then you didn't. So I've been able to do that successfully off and on. Still working on doing it multiple times in a row successfully.

If you guys have any suggestions on a better way to practice these techniques and more importantly how to incorporate them into my actual gameplay that would be awesome. I'm sure someone has already asked this but I have no idea how to navigate forums or anything to find it lol. Thanks :D

 

[Alexo30]

I believe that you should just practice all of the techniques by yourself, a lot. Learn how to wavedash, L-cancel, SHFFL, etc. proficiently, while becoming faster and more consistent. All of the techniques will become second-hand with due time.

As for the actual game environment, I believe that you just need to focus and keep calm. Just continue to play against people, and you will become more comfortable.

Hope this helped!

 

[SmokedCarpenter]

Thanks for the feedback! I don't have a consistent practice partner unfortunately but I'm hoping to play with my friend a few times over break so he can teach me all this in person.

I've been practicing my butt off this morning lol. Today was mostly practicing spiking with marth (pretty sure I'm gonna main him just because he has really easy hitboxes). I've actually gotten pretty good at it in a very short time, I just practiced throwing the enemy off the ledge (in training at first) then shorthopping and down airing to spike them. Eventually I started trying it in CPU matches and I'm at the point where if I concentrate on killing only by spiking I can beat some level 9s :D

I also did a little shorthopping and L-cancelling practice. I have a question about SHFFLing. Is it still possible to L-cancel if you don't shorthop or fastfall? I've been practicing on fox and I think it works because I just jump, down air, L-cancel, shine, and the combo reads 2-4 so I guess it works. Obviously you want to incorporate shorthopping and fastsalling eventually but for now just L-cancelling is tough enough!

I'm having a friendly tournament with a bunch of kids from my hometown just after christmas which is why I'm suddenly practicing so much lol. Most of them don't play competitively and can't do anything advanced like wavedashing either, but there are at least 2 who can do that stuff and are pretty good. I'm hoping to at least put up a good fight against them, but I'm not sure I'll have time to practice enough before then!

 

[Alexo30]

That's the way to do it, practicing for hours. Cannot tell you how many nights have been sleep-less lol.Yeah Marth is one of the easiest characters to begin with. Don't play level 9s. You need to play like some level 1s and 3s, just to work on your combos( for Marth, U-air juggling, Ken combos, U-tilts, etc.). Don't get used to always using spikes, expand your options and abilities. Yeah you can L-cancel on any aerial. Good luck!

If you have any other questions or concerns, feel free to PM me.

 

[Ausp]

@SmokedCarpenter

My advice is to make a list of all of the basic technical stuff that you need to cover and then practice them all day. Really, it comes down to a grind. Your muscles will eventually recall the timings. Just understand that the timings begin to change when your aerial attacks are hitting something (they differ when you hit a character that is shielding from a character that isn't) as opposed to when they are not.
Also, watch some videos of tournament matches and try to identify the differences in play when one player is on the offensive and another on the defensive. You'll notice a reactive process of one chasing the other around. Try to imitate it in your matches. I mentioned this because you are preparing to play in a tournament setting. This is important to understand against human opponents.

Hopefully, this helps:

 

[SmokedCarpenter]

I basically just went up a level each match just to see if I could actually kill them with spikes. I've also been working on U-air combos but it's hard to get a real feel for that since they make little attempt to escape it even when given the opportunity. Thanks so much for your help, I'll PM you if I have anymore questions :D

 

[SmokedCarpenter]

That is actually the exact video I watched, thanks for the advice! It's gonna be a tough transition to human opponents but we'll play some warm-ups first hopefully :D

 

[Varist]

It's generally not a good idea to practice "comboing" a CPU just because they let you do it without trading and they have very predictable DI.

Whether you realize it or not by actually concentrating on hitting the CPU and comboing him you are subconsciously ingraining habits in yourself that are specific to CPUs.

If you fight against CPUs and practice killing CPUs, you will get better at beating CPUs. But not necessarily better at beating players.

The reason for this is the habits that are formed. You get very comfy at a certain point, fighting things that don't hit back and always walk up to you. So you suffer a kind of shell shock when you're up against a human opponent who is waiting for you to run at him and make a move before he begins his own string of hits.

This is not to say practicing on CPUs is valueless, but there are two things that come from practicing against a CPU: killing a CPU and getting comfortable with your character.

Perfect practice makes perfect, so how do you refine that practice into something meaningful without developing bad habits?

You purify it by removing the intent to actually kill the CPU. If you're trying to do your throw to down air spike off the stage, you could see that as "getting comfortable with Marth's down air and its application" but when you're in a match against your friend later on, and he's at the edge, and you throw him, and you try that very same combo, it will likely miss completely. The same way you may throw to down air out of habit after fighting CPUs, you may develop subtler unsafe habits.

If you catch yourself forward smashing when a CPU is walking up to you, that is not good practice. In a real match, if people walk up to you and your ingrained response every time is to forward smash, they will shield, wavedash out of it and grab you. It is one of the oldest tricks in the book to beat a Marth's badly spaced forward smash.

So don't practice killing CPUs. Practice moving around the stage. Meander over to the CPU by using platforms and getting comfortable with them. Don't practice on FD. Hit the CPU every once in a while with different moves just to see if you can adjust your L-cancel timing properly. If your controller has a good Z button, try L-canceling with Z. If it isn't comfortable don't bother. There's tons more "mistakes I made when I was younger" kind of tips but those are the ones that spring to mind. Maybe other people could tell you different things that would help you.

 

[SmokedCarpenter]

That was like, incredibly helpful! Everyone here is so nice and helpful lol :D

I see what you're saying about CPUs, which is why when I fight them I'm not just trying to beat the CPU, I'm trying to kill it with a spike, or juggle it, or grab combo it, I try to make the focus a specific technique each match. Hopefully this way I will learn the technique without being lulled into a sense of security killing CPUs.

I've gotten pretty decent at juggling the CPU near the edge of the stage and then finishing with a spike or sometimes just hitting them up or off the side. One thing I have a lot of trouble with is doing those crazy risky things you see in tournaments where you follow your opponent off the edge to kill them and then jump back up. Most of the time I'll finish him off then fall to my death as well.

The biggest problem I have with L-cancelling is figuring out when I actually did it properly or not. There are some times when I'm pretty sure I've done it as marth and some times when I know I messed up, but most of the time I'm not sure if I did or not. I've spent most of today learning marth's basic combos instead of L-cancelling mostly because it's easier and I can practice my shorthops when doing combos.

One thing I didn't practice (cause I don't know what it is!) Is the "Ken combo" that Alexo30 mentioned. I know it originated from ken's marth style but I don't know what the actual combo entails. Is there a good video tutorial of it or something?

Thanks again for all the help from everyone, I'm sure I'll have a lot more questions to throw at you soon :D

 

[Alexo30]

@SmokedCarpenter head on over to meleeiton.me and you can find the "Marth Trials" video. It shows you a lot of combos and practice techniques for Marth mains, designed to test your Smash abilities.

 

[xCardiac]

I watched a video on youtube suggesting to pick fox in training mode and down air, L-cancel, and down+b. If the combo says 2 or more then you L-cancelled, if not then you didn't. So I've been able to do that successfully off and on. Still working on doing it multiple times in a row successfully.


Another way to practice this would be with marth's Neutral Air. If you're standing with your back facing your opponent, get them up in the air and try to chain NAirs until you can do them across the whole stage. It's all timing and spacing, as you have to try to keep as close to your opponent as possible or else they may be tippered and sent flying. The key is adding a little direction towards your opponent while air-bourne. Hope this has helped!

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

No C stick in training mode though

 

[xCardiac]

No C stick in training mode though

Use another controller and put the match on infinite time. Just treat it like a CPU on "Stand". Better part is, you can move it around to your liking with the second controller. There's also a glitch that you can enter a match as 1P, but I'm not sure about that, nor do I think it would be affective for this training method. Atleast you'll be able to use C-Stick!

Here's a question for you!

Do you use your C-Stick for all aerials? Also, how do you, personally, hit the C-Stick? Do you use the bottom of your thumb for all C-Stick inputs or do you move the top of your thumb down to the C-Stick?

I usually use the C-Stick for: FAirs going towards the left, DAirs so I don't accidentally fast-fall off the stage, and lastly, Falling UAirs, as I always seem to tap-jump.

 

[Alexo30]

Use another controller and put the match on infinite time. Just treat it like a CPU on "Stand". Better part is, you can move it around to your liking with the second controller. There's also a glitch that you can enter a match as 1P, but I'm not sure about that, nor do I think it would be affective for this training method. Atleast you'll be able to use C-Stick!

Here's a question for you!

Do you use your C-Stick for all aerials? Also, how do you, personally, hit the C-Stick? Do you use the bottom of your thumb for all C-Stick inputs or do you move the top of your thumb down to the C-Stick?

I usually use the C-Stick for: FAirs going towards the left, DAirs so I don't accidentally fast-fall off the stage, and lastly, Falling UAirs, as I always seem to tap-jump.

Using the C-stick is really personal preference and which character you use. I play Captain Falcon and I use the C-stick a for all aerials and I use the top of my thumb. It's all preference.

 

[Varist]

Using the c-stick varies for techniques.

There are definitely times where using the c-stick is inferior unless you have inhuman finger speed.

The fact of the matter is you should be using A or Z for most aerials out of shield because it's closer to your jump button. You should be using C-stick for things like reverse shine bair because you need to be holding a different direction than the one you want to aerial in.

I don't know about different ways to hit the C-stick, there is only the most accurate way and that is always preference. I personally move my thumb all the way down and position it right on top of the stick. Doing it faster lets you get your aerials out faster.

Using the C-stick for most of your aerials is generally a good rule just because it lets you control your momentum slightly better. If the whole left side of your hand is dedicated only to where your character will be drifting, you can space approaches far better than if you had to worry about holding a certain direction for your next move.

At the same time though it doesn't make any more difference than you let it make. If you use an amalgamation of C-stick, A and Z, that's fine. Mango says he barely uses c-stick and look where he's at.

 

[bearsfan092]

U There's also a glitch that you can enter a match as 1P, but I'm not sure about that, nor do I think it would be affective for this training method. Atleast you'll be able to use C-Stick!

Wait can I get a link to this glitch? It'd be nice to do some platform tricks with.

 

[dRevan64]

Wait can I get a link to this glitch? It'd be nice to do some platform tricks with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk_UFsvRte4
Lovage's berserker video used this glitch. It's great.

 

[Alexo30]

Wait can I get a link to this glitch? It'd be nice to do some platform tricks with.

Look up "Name entry glitch". It should be on supersmashbros.wikia.com.

 

[SmokedCarpenter]

Wait so....C stick is actually useful? I was taught C-stick is for scrubs my whole life lol XD

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

It's essential for retreating fairs and falling uairs...

 

[SmokedCarpenter]

It's essential for retreating fairs and falling uairs...

Yeah I can see how that would be impossible otherwise....guess I've just never considered doing either of those lol baby steps

 

[xCardiac]

It's essential for retreating fairs and falling uairs...

Crouch Cancelled f-smashes too doe >

 

[SAUS]

Wait so....C stick is actually useful? I was taught C-stick is for scrubs my whole life lol XD

lol yes a lot of people will say it's cheap or noobish, but really, it's just another button for inputting things. People think it's cheap because they are naive, and think skill in the game lies in something so small as inputting a smash move. If you can't beat a wall of Marth forward smashes because they get them every time with the C-stick, you are boned if you play against someone with actual skill.

Unfortunately, learning the game with the C-stick means all 1p modes become absolute crap. If you want an idea of how horrible it is for me to play single player melee, then imagine this:
Which button/input do you use to jump? Whatever it is, imagine that particular input/button is disabled during all 1p modes. For example, if you use Y, that button no longer does anything in 1p. X, same thing but for X, and if you actually use tap up on the joy stick to jump, imagine that is disabled. In all of these cases, the other buttons all work perfectly fine, so you can still do everything, you just have to play with different buttons. That's how painful 1p mode is for me

EDIT
Don't let that stop you from using the C-stick lol. It's still worth it. VS is the best mode.

 

[SmokedCarpenter]

Haha thanks for the advice :D I actually jump/wavedash with X and shorthop with Y since my Y button is much less worn.