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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Dr Peepee

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Oh, then yeah covering inside is just way better as something to do more if you're gonna miss haha. But you can get value from dropping through first then either DJ attacking or faking that and punishing/threatening his landing.
 

AnonymousID

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Hey PP so I've been playing my friend a lot and he's really good (He's on edwins top 52 list!) and I feel like my decision making needs work. Sometimes I get into the mindset of just doing the thing that beats the last thing they did. (like I get upsmashed, so next interaction I'll try shielding, or I get dashback grabbed so next time Ill try jump foward lasering instead). I think this method works great if the opponent just does the same thing but of course good players always change things up.

When I play my friend I feel like a typical interaction would probably be like 1. undershoot aerial (gets dd grabbed) 2. overshoot aerial (gets shielded) 3. laser (get full hop aerialed) (maybe the problem here is I just always instantly jumped foward) In my mind I feel like I'm doing different things every time, but clearly it's too predictable. I feel like I have multiple answers to all of foxes options, but it becomes so much harder when you have no idea what they will do next.

There's moments though where I feel like I mix things up really well and play a lot more reactively which gets me a lot of openings, but it feels more of a subconscious thing so I'm not sure what's happening decision making-wise. So yea if you have advice on this topic, I'd love to hear it. Thanks!
 

Dr Peepee

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Sometimes you do need to just change what you do entirely instead of always jumping in. Sometimes you need to start the mixup the exact same way(same spacing and starting actions) because it's different otherwise. Sometimes you need to pick options that are just safer such as waiting or retreating lasers instead of always attacking. Sometimes you need to learn how they change options and not just expecting them to do one thing over and over.
 

AnonymousID

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Hi, how do I deal with fox's double jump on flat stages like pokemon or FD? Usually I try to read it and laser their fall but if the fox is really good at drifting between away and forward it becomes really hard. I feel like its no matter what I do it's really easy for me to get clipped by an aerial.
 

Dr Peepee

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If you want to laser, try doing so around the peak of their DJ. This will give you time to react to their drift. However, you may be too close if you are still getting clipped.

You can also dash FH Nair/Dair or FH Bair a DJ as well as FH/DJ over their DJ and fall on them with Dair.
 

AnonymousID

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Hey PP, whenever I start a tournament set without any warm up I play really bad in the sense that I miss my dashes/drifts/combos and just get stuck a lot. I feel like I need to play a bunch of friendlies before I can play to what I'm capable of. Do you have any advice in playing your first game as good as possible? The ideal answer would be to just play friendlies before hand but sometimes that's not possible due to me TOing and doing other tasks.
 

Marzipann

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Hey PP! Hope you're well. I was wondering if you had any pointers towards how to deal with nerves in tournament. I've heard you've recommended others meditation in the past. Do you have any exact guides or videos to help with this cause I've never really meditated before and don't know where to start. Is there any other general advice you'd give besides meditation? When I've asked people before the response has normally been just enter a lot and the nerves will gradually go away, but I only get nervous for bigger events and I can only enter 1 every few months so entering lots isn't really an option
 

Dr Peepee

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Nerves is such a broad topic I have worried about handling everything in the video I wish to make. Something simple you can do is reframe your anxiety as excitement. They both work along the same biological pathway and research(and people in chat) have supported that it works.

As for meditation, there are two main styles I know of. The first is very simple: you breathe in through your nose and out through your mouth. You focus on the air coming in and the parts of your face it goes in and out of. I find it very useful to think "in" while going in and "out" while going out to occupy my conscious mind. You will get distracted, it's normal, and the main trick of meditation is bringing your attention back to the breath. This trains you to focus and can also be very calming.

The other style is body scan. You slowly go over every part of your body, observing tension. You release tension in each place you notice it. Eventually you will have scanned all of yourself and can sort of imagine feeling into the space around you if you want, or switch to the other style if you want to do more. You can also achieve this result by imagining the room filling with water(you can breathe in this water).

Focusing on why you're excited, your goals, applying your training....these are all things that take you away from fear and toward excitement as well which is the main goal.

If none of this works, emotions are probably your next best angle, but that's a large topic. It's still beneficial to try everything else first and this stuff also makes the emotional work easier, especially if you're also taking care of your body.
 

R3_

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hi, long time no see

I wanted to ask about how falcos use uair shine for pillar combos instead of the traditional dair shine. why do they do this? what are uair's advantages/disadvantages over using dair?

another, maybe too broad of a question but i tend to drop combos after about 2 hits in games. usually it will just be an aerial into shine, a shine into shine or a shine to aerial and then it just drops because i cant find anything off of their away di or i mess up a tech chase. ive practiced a fair bit in unclepunch combo training and just beating up cpus or playing unranked and i still struggle to get combos going, let alone kill. is there like a flowchart for falco combos i can read up on or smth?

thank you for answering if u do
 

Dr Peepee

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Yo

Uair single hit I assume you mean? They do this to avoid people holding down on Dair to exit stun and shine out, and also to avoid people holding down on Nair to go too far away. DI mixup sort of and combos into shine at the right percents. If you mean both hits or second hit of uair you may need to explain more.

There is a flowchart but it's not something I can write with any sort of clarity or shortness. So much is situational. Even so, you can probably get a lot of value from looking at how you dropped a combo and asking yourself how to punish their DI or tech if you knew they would do it, but also if you didn't know or if they mixed it with other things. Messing up a tech chase is something you can use savestates to practice specifically.
 
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McLovinll

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Hey pp what do you thing are some key concepts to understand playing against fox.
 

Dr Peepee

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1. You outrange Fox

2. Pressure Fox's landing lag whenever possible. This doesn't mean rush him down there.

3. His shine OOS is crazy fast plus he can CC shine reversal well, so be sure to do mid Nair or late Nair/Dair on approach unless Dair knocks down and crosses up, and have tigher/spaced shield pressure

4. Mix lasers with attacks when edgeguarding
 

SalaMenace

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Hey PP :)

This happens to me a lot vs Fox, where I try to establish laser control and they just run up and powershield it and I die.

Later this game I tried to adapt by dairing at him in a similar situation, but he was still able to get his shield up and punish me.

I'm wondering if maybe he's just reacting to my dash? Like, "oh he's dashing back, he must be going for a laser." Or, "oh he's dashing in, he must be going for an aerial."

If that's the case, then would it be better to dash in, and then dash back laser?

Or is there something else important I'm missing about this situation? Or are there other good mixups to consider in this spot?
 

Dr Peepee

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I'm not usually gonna watch vids, but for that first one just shoot a lower laser so it's harder/impossible to PS. You can also just Dair in place vs laser if you see them coming in.

You would Dair in place, high Dair in is punishable oos.

But yeah dash back laser is good as Bair to keep Fox out.
 

SalaMenace

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Oh sorry, I thought it would be quicker to just show it rather than type it all out.

So you're saying a late dair in place is a good way to keep fox out? And that it's possible to short hop, react to him running in, and then choose the dair instead of the laser?
 

Dr Peepee

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Or retreating early Dair, maybe even earlier Dair in place. That can depend on percent somewhat.

And the reaction would have to be around peak of the SH because you can't get the laser out otherwise, but yes it's something to consider. Bair and Dair are easier though.
 

Ds24

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hello!
I was watching Zain play Llod at summit 13, and I noticed that Zain wouldn’t catch turnips, but would powershield them instead??? This seems really goofy to me. What’s the reasoning behind this? Does any of it apply to falco?
 

Dr Peepee

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He powershields them because it's easy and because they go back at an angle that Peach can't move through.

Falco could probably make use of it too, but his default PS isn't as easy as say Marth's crouching PS. There's some talk about Falco's walking ZPS being useful right now, but I don't think I'm informed enough to give good advice there. I'd say it's probably better left alone unless you want to turn off light shield on your controller to get easier access to PS and can find a decent setup for it.
 

beefchang

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Hey PP!

I'm a newer player and feel like my game plan has no structure. I just run around and get stray hits and follow up on instinct where I can.

What would you consider to be a general process for Falco to follow during the course of a game?

I've heard the term win-condition, what would you consider to be Falco's win-condition and how should I aim to get there?
 

Dr Peepee

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You generally want to beat your opponents' moves, and land strong combo starters. So vs Pikachu, it helps to be somewhere you can react to or preemptively do moves that beat Pikachu Nair but also let you pressure Pikachu. Strong combo starters may be different at different percents, and you may want to land more Nairs than Dairs at KO/edgeguard percents. Utilt isn't great at 0 vs Pikachu for combo starters but at like 30ish or so it can be really good.

A win condition is a particular spacing that's really good for you, so like having a laser out while you're close to someone is really good and can be called a win condition.
 

LumpyCPU...

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What is the current good options when you get grabs on fast fallers? I feel like i get absolutely nothing off of uthrow these days and dthrow leads to me either going for a tech read and lasering when i guess wrong.
i have had mixed success off of fthrow/bthrow but it seems like I’m guessing unless I’m near the ledge.
 

Dr Peepee

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A lot of this stuff super depends. For Fox for example, you can Dthrow if the percent is pretty low and you're the port closer to 4 and get a guaranteed shine but otherwise it's a mixup between regrab and stuff.

BUT ANYWAY, the main thing is to throw them off the stage if you can. Fthrow/Bthrow. Trying to keep them from grabbing edge is best. Fthrow can be useful around 40 when it knocks down so you can tech chase. Uthrow/Fthrow mixup is pretty good because they're both fast. Uthrow in general is great but people SDI it well so now it can be sort of a mixup, but at mid or high percents you can still react and get a Bair after they jump(or before if they don't react to Uthrow).
 

LumpyCPU...

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To me, the biggest benefit falco gets from grabbing more often is not the follow ups, but the conditioning. If i show that i am willing to grab you often, you can’t just shield through my sloppy pressure every time. I had some follow up questions, but they are answerable in uncle punch.

On an unrelated note, I like the way mango was using dair > ftilt a lot at GOML in situations that lead to unexpected edgeguard scenarios or where dair > shine might have missed because of SDI. Do you think dtilt is viable in this way? Do you have certain ways to land dtilts?
 

Dr Peepee

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Grab only stops shield if you can get okay followups, otherwise they will keep shielding since reward is better.

Dtilt is more necessary there yeah. You can also do dash jc shine sometimes. It depends on how you land the initial Dair and percent.

I don't prefer landing Dtilt because of its lag, but if I think they will hold in then doing it around 35ish sets up great combos.
 

EvanF

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Hello!
If I laser marth from mid range and expect them to aerial in place afterward, what should I do? Should I shoot another laser? Dash back and try to whiff punish on reaction? Dash back and then approach as a read? Something else? Thanks :)
 

Dr Peepee

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High Nair catches them out of the air, but you may need to be closer. People define mid range differently. If Marth does something not immediate then immediate Nair easily wins.

Mango does turnaround WD in Bair which you can try if you like. If Marth is coming into you, then walk away Utilt can beat some things. You can also lower laser into Nair to punish Marth out of the air.
 

EvanF

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I tried to laser>nair a CPU doing instant fair out of shield, and the best I could do was trade, no matter the distance. It’s a bit easier to nair Marth’s nair but you do have to be really close.

By midrange I meant like around marth’s tipper fsmash range. I just feel like marth’s aerials beat mine, and his option to dash back and whiff punish makes it even more skewed in his favor. I try to dash dance and then approach, but marth can do a delayed aerial to beat that too. The mixups just seem really bad for falco
 

Dr Peepee

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You might be able to win if you do a low enough laser, but yeah you may want to laser into Ftilt if you just want something fast that stuffs his jump. Take note that if he's shielding his stun will be less than if he got hit by the laser! You would have time to aerial the way you did before and win then.

Also keep in mind that Marth doing immediate Fair can then be locked down by you much more easily, and much more easily Nair'd out of the air.
 

beefchang

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Hey PP!

As Falco, what are some considerations I should take when deciding to use shield over other close range defensive options such as CC, shine, and spacing? I feel as though I hardly use shield and never know when it is the best option or what to do after using it.
 

Dr Peepee

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Shield is good when you're pretty sure they will attack AND you can't CC punish(which is usually, CC isn't great for Falco in most matchups). Sometimes you can't move away or get an attack out in time but you can shield so those would be good times to do it.

Out of shield, shine is great if you can hit it, but SH Dair(any direction really), Bair(usually AC but depends), FH, roll, spotdodge, and WD are all great.
 

beefchang

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Hi PP!

Thanks for answering all my questions! I have yet another. I've been playing a very laser heavy game that makes my opponents hold shield. I don't yet have the tech skill for shine-heavy shield pressure, but I can pretty regularly get grabs when they are not expecting it. What are some common grab follow-ups I should be looking for on fast fallers? Thanks in advance!
 

Dr Peepee

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Yoyo!

On Fox, you can Dthrow shine at lower percents(this is less likely to work if you are a higher port, and also if they know about this trick and have good SDI). You can get a mixup even if they get out. Throwing them offstage is always great. Fthrow tech chase at high 30s and low 40s is great, especially if they land close to the edge so the tech chase is easy. You can then mix these with Uthrow more so people don't always expect it. Bthrow isn't great but could perhaps be used occasionally to push someone closer to edge. Sometimes out of Uthrow you can true (dash) FH shine or SH Nair and sometimes you can't. You may need to guess or practice to get faster reactions depending on the situation(sometimes it's unreactable is what I mean). At higher percents, it's okay not to go for a true followup on Uthrow because they usually have to DJ to avoid your attack and you can set up for FH/DJ Bair then.
 

Safe

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Hello PP,

How do I beat fox fullhop in place when I approach?

Really struggling with consistently punishing or at the very least staying safe from this option whilst approaching. My answers so far have been FH/SH DJ aerial to beat them out of the air or land on top of them if I have the read, FH lasers if they keep doing it even when I'm at a distance, and running shine -> wavedash forward to go under them. All of these sorta work but not too consistently. One option I've thought about but haven't tried yet is shield stop and laser their landing, sort of analogous to how you might dash back laser the landing of a fox fullhop with forward drift.

Ty in advance
 

Dr Peepee

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You can also dash in pivot SH/FH Bair but you have to start before they jump so it's not always reliable. Fox's FH is just great at keeping people out, so in addition to what has been said so far I'd recommend lasering the landing and playing a mixup, possibly a more aggressive one if you can land it closer to have better advantage.
 

LumpyCPU...

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If I’m getting abused by fox’s FH, i will try FH nair/dair as a callout or i will try to run under them and rising bair.
The super oldschool rule of thumb (aka oversimplification) was that falco beats fox if they’re both short hopping or if they’re both full hopping.
 

Decipher

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Yoyo!

On Fox, you can Dthrow shine at lower percents(this is less likely to work if you are a higher port, and also if they know about this trick and have good SDI). You can get a mixup even if they get out. Throwing them offstage is always great. Fthrow tech chase at high 30s and low 40s is great, especially if they land close to the edge so the tech chase is easy. You can then mix these with Uthrow more so people don't always expect it. Bthrow isn't great but could perhaps be used occasionally to push someone closer to edge. Sometimes out of Uthrow you can true (dash) FH shine or SH Nair and sometimes you can't. You may need to guess or practice to get faster reactions depending on the situation(sometimes it's unreactable is what I mean). At higher percents, it's okay not to go for a true followup on Uthrow because they usually have to DJ to avoid your attack and you can set up for FH/DJ Bair then.
Hello PP,
Falco's on net play keep downthrow CG me (as fox) and link it into moves like shine, jab, d smash. even at higher percentages where I know its possible to get out of. Just asking to know if I could be doing anything better then mashing shine.
 

Safe

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Hiya

Couple of questions this time round. Hope they're not too vague.

1. How do I play around FoD platforms in their low position where I can't SH laser without being interrupted landing on the platform?

2. How/when do I actually utilise shffl aerials? Most of play seems to use rising aerials or aerials without fastfalling e.g., stuffing their own aerials, crossing them up without fastfall so I go further, undershooting with a rising dair so the hitbox stays out as long as possible etc. It would seem whenever I do use a shffl aerial, I get anti-aired, or dash back whiff punished, or they pre-emptively roll. Most of my shield pressure seems to start from grounded approaches.

3. How do you stay 'switched on' all the time whilst playing? This game demands a lot more focus than a lot of other games I play or even other hobbies that you can sort of do in the background. How do you stay present in the here and now rather than drifting off into other unrelated thoughts or even just getting stuck thinking about 1 interaction that happened a whole stock ago?

TY in advance
 
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