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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Bones0

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So I'm starting to get better at ledgedashing, but I'm not sure what to do after I ledgedash on stage. I usually ledgedash and then panic roll towards the middle cause I don't want to get hit, but there are times where it's better to just attack right out of ledgedashing, right? When I watch Foxes ledgedash I see them upsmash, but that's probably not as good of an option for Falco, so I'm wondering what I should be going for most of the time.

Also I'd just like to say thanks to everyone who keeps answering all my questions. I really appreciate it, and hopefully one day I'll be good enough to actually contribute back myself.
- Jump shine (WL off side plat if available)
- Turnaround utilt
- SHFFL aerial (hard to consistently do with full invul)
- SHL/short dash back SHL (risky until you've conditioned them to respect other options)
- FH (mix up drift to side plat vs. around plat with a laser)
- Dash FH to top plat (immediate dair ACs)
- FH WL onto side plat (lets you set up shield drops if they try to attack)

The general rule of thumb for Falco is to LHDL when the opponent is too far to punish it, and if they are close enough to threaten it, your ledgedash options should be fast enough to threaten them, if not hit directly. Falco's dash is way worse than Fox's so you can't really use it the same as Fox's, but LHDL limits how far away they can stay when they see you grab the ledge. Shield and roll aren't terrible options after ledgedashing, but you get punished way harder if they read/cover those options than if they read an invul option that protects you with a hitbox.
 

kaptinkillem

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Nov 3, 2014
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38
Is it really "way worse"? I thought falcos was like only 3 or 4 frames worse. Which I guess could qualify as way worse but idk, you can still put out a lot of different invincible options
 
Last edited:

Bones0

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Is it really "way worse"? I thought falcos was like only 3 or 4 frames worse. Which I guess could qualify as way worse but idk, you can still put out a lot of different invincible options
I was talking about his dash, not his ledgedash intangibility (which is only 1 frame worse). Fox goes over twice as far with his dash in the same amount of time, which means he can frequently get to the inner edge of side plats before his invul runs out. This huge threat range forces opponents to respect his space way more than Falco's because Falco's short dash limits him to just outside of his initial waveland range.
 

Barron

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El Paso, Texas
How does Falco cover the basic options off of ledge? Roll, getup attack, standard getup, and tournament winner both under and over 100%. Does Falco have to pick different options depending on the character? Or is it one size fits all? Some of the options such as roll and tournament winner seem pretty basic, but I'm looking for a more in depth look. Maybe noting things such as "Falco can place a lingering dair to cover standard getup on reaction" or something. Perhaps there's already a thread dedicated to this, but it would be nice to get a newer perspective as well. Not looking forward to information related to ledge dashing, rather focus on the basic ledge options.
 

Squidster

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Sup team, I have a few gifs of me vs Marth, I'd love to hear thoughts if yalls can :D (PP / Bones)

1. https://gfycat.com/EuphoricOblongHorseshoecrab

Ground game, Marth is mixing up shield / power shield and wd oos and take laser jab. Having trouble illuminating the ground game in my head a little. Thoughts?

2. https://gfycat.com/LeanHonorableBass

Here i do a decent job of jumping over the power shields but still feel like I'm missing opportunities, should i be looking to jump over the PS with more aggressive options like approaching late aerials or something? Maybe just more aggression after the laser that jumped over the PS like laser > dash grab or something.

3. https://gfycat.com/FaithfulBabyishKrill

I think this shield I do is extraneous and I tend to do when I'm a little spooked. I also have a big problem with picking panic options after whiffing aerials, here I panic and spot dodge right after the whiffed Nair.

Thanks in advance!
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Sup team, I have a few gifs of me vs Marth, I'd love to hear thoughts if yalls can :D (PP / Bones)

1. https://gfycat.com/EuphoricOblongHorseshoecrab

Ground game, Marth is mixing up shield / power shield and wd oos and take laser jab. Having trouble illuminating the ground game in my head a little. Thoughts?

2. https://gfycat.com/LeanHonorableBass

Here i do a decent job of jumping over the power shields but still feel like I'm missing opportunities, should i be looking to jump over the PS with more aggressive options like approaching late aerials or something? Maybe just more aggression after the laser that jumped over the PS like laser > dash grab or something.

3. https://gfycat.com/FaithfulBabyishKrill

I think this shield I do is extraneous and I tend to do when I'm a little spooked. I also have a big problem with picking panic options after whiffing aerials, here I panic and spot dodge right after the whiffed Nair.

Thanks in advance!
#1, 6:31 - You shot this laser too soon. You can cover TR in/TIP with dair, so they will almost always TR away, and establishing laser pressure is great, but you should time it so it hits right as his animation is ending to maximize your frame advantage while limiting his space. If you're not able to combo off the laser directly, then whether it hits or he is forced to shield it is largely irrelevant. I'd rather have a late laser out that he can shield if it means I had more time to advance and I'm now within range to grab, approach, zone, dash back to set up for a whiff punish, etc.

You DDed, but I'm not too sure what it really did for you. The main thing I'm guessing you were expecting was immediate fair after taking the laser. It's a common option for Marth to throw out to defend himself, and waiting outside his range to punish it is a worthwhile endeavor. However, I find you can sort of multitask by simply lasering again from the appropriate positioning. If he fairs to stuff an approach, he will jump over the second laser and you can still whiff punish on reaction by SHFFLing him out of the air. If he does not expect an approach, he is likely to approach himself on the ground. Run up grab, WD in dtilt, and dash attack are the most common options, and something they all have in common is they lose to consecutive lasers. The one thing you could do that would lose to all of those options is to DD so far away that an abnormally aggressive fair is the only thing you can really punish. It's unclear if you were aware of these threats, but for good reason, you felt unsafe DDing at that spacing, and backed off to reestablish laser pressure. Marth players have asked me how to deal with this type of lasering and the only thing I've come up with is to move forward between the lasers and PS the second one, or move forward at a shorter distance that I'm not ready to capitalize on.

I think the best way to understand the ground game vs. Marth is to view everything in relation to your lasers, specifically two consecutive ones. Look at all the times you shoot two consecutive lasers without moving. What does the Marth do? If you're like me after discussing this with Sami, you'll be amazed that Marth pretty much can't do anything, at least nothing that directly threatens you. Most of the time it's move back (approaching laser after him to rinse and repeat), jump in place (laser in place to rinse and repeat), jump forward (whiff punish on reaction with either an aerial or close laser), and move forward on the ground (approaching aerial, retreating/in place aerial, grab, do whatever you want since you just lasered him in the face).

If you understand the fundamental FGC mixups established in Street Fighter, you should know about the most traditional RPS. Character A shoots Hadoukens. Character B reads a Hadouken with a jump in. If the read was good, he gets a juicy punish. If he jumps in and A opted not to shoot a Hadouken, he gets Shoryuken'd (upper cut anti air). This is largely how I view Falco's lasers vs. Fox, though Melee has more complexities due to platforms, drift, and double jumps. Now imagine that Character B is incapable of jumping in, and you've got yourself Marth's neutral vs. Falco on FD. It's really not pretty, and when I watch Falco vs. Marth, no one seems to be playing to this meta. What actually seems to happen is that Marths camp until Falco does a bad approach that he didn't have to do, then they out-punish the Falco. Marth vs. Fox has devolved into a similar dynamic, even at the top level, though it's understandably different due to Fox relying on speed over a projectile to threaten the space in front of him. Even the one time we got to see Sami play Falco vs. Marth against PPU at G4, he largely seemed to outplay him in neutral, then do something unnecessary and die.

Quick rundown of the times he gets punished (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEpN4JclsUM):
0:45 - Hit by PPU's respawn invul
0:58 - Accidentally FHs to top plat giving up center stage and laser control
Rest of the stock was a bunch of weird tech flubs/whiffs.
2:15 - Decides to DD WD around instead of lasering
2:34 - This is the first good example of the current meta. Falco lasers, and Marth is not close enough to punish a second laser. Despite this, Sami tries to approach. If you remember the 4 main options I laid out before, you'll remember the first and most common one is moving backwards. PPU WDs back and gets a free grab. Marths have come to rely heavily on these kinds of free openings, and the vast majority of them do not have any answer besides move backwards and hope Falco gives himself up.
3:00 - Hit during PPU's respawn invul
3:28 - Sami opts not to establish laser pressure and instead goes for a read on PPU approaching by moving forward and retreating with a dair. This generally isn't bad, and he didn't even get punished until he dashed in for another read after the retreating dair.

PPU didn't properly deal with Sami's lasers even a single time and managed to get him down to last stock. This kind of stuff continues through the rest of the set which is depressing, but also quite promising. I don't want to blow this out of proportion to make it sound like Falco beats Marth free since human error and reaction time are real things, and platforms give Marth a great "jump in" when he normally has none, but it feels like the meta has stagnated at this point and won't improve until Falcos step it up. As far as Wes is concerned, I've tried to figure out how he beats any Marth, let alone PPU, but the best I can come up with is he does extremely high risk immediate DJs with amazing drift mixups, and then punishes the ballz off of the Marth. It's truly a sight to behold once you get used to viewing the matchup through the heavy laser-focused lens that I have for the time being. I still haven't given his last set vs. M2K a proper studying, but perhaps I'll take some time to do so.


I realize I just went on a giant tangent to explain the ground game, so let me go back to your specific examples.

#1, 6:25 - You continue lasering and aside from being hit by a few PSed lasers, you're not really losing anything from continuing to shoot. Eventually, you land a laser relatively close and decide to approach. The simple explanation is you just weren't close enough to be approaching there. Take laser and jab is actually a blessing compared to the take laser and DD grab you could have been caught by.

Laser lower to make PSing more difficult. Ginger has mentioned he likes high lasers up close to dissuade Marth from jumping, but I haven't tested that myself. I think the increased risk of getting PS grabbed is not worth it, and I think Marth's advancing jump options are limited enough and get punished hard enough that I welcome the mixup most of the time (exceptions: when I'm at high % or relatively cornered).



#2, 7:55 - Hopefully the bthrow was an accident. Even at 0%, uthrowing and fishing for a jump shine as he comes down/lands on the plat or doing a SH uair/bair in a way that's safe and allows you to retain stage control is best. Don't FH, and don't let him get behind you by running across the plat or something. Fthrowing him to the ledge is decent, though Marths usually DI uthrow away and end up on ledge anyway, so I feel like you don't gain much from fthrowing unless you suck at capitalizing on the uthrow opportunities. Maybe you can dthrow and tech chase TR in with a hard read dair. It's a predictable tech situation, and the punish would be brutal. Another thing worth testing.

#2, 7:52 - You laser a bunch which he is utterly incapable of dealing with, then you eventually land a laser right on his shield. Not the way I would have went about it (run up PS grab would have rekt you, but he went for fair OoS instead), but you should be able to react to Marth's positioning while you laser to know what attack to do as soon as you land. If you see him moving during the startup of your laser, you can think about how much time you have left until the laser comes out, then also think about how far he will travel in that small length of time. From this, you can extrapolate his positioning since he can't reasonably change his position before the laser comes out, and aside from SDIing it away, you will know what to do. In this example, you could have shined right after the laser, at which point the world is your oyster. Shine grab, multishine, or waveshine through are the big go-tos for pressuring Marth.

Instead, you daired behind him hoping he would move backwards. Marths won't really do that when it's possible to overshoot a dair (which means you're basically on top of them/through them). They will usually only retreat if they have enough time to avoid laser immediate SHFFL because that's the standard threat Falco has after lasers.

#2, 7:51 - Similar laser distance in the opposite direction. You aren't close enough to laser SHFFL which you recognize, so you read his movement back with an approaching laser. Not terrible, especially if they are being predictable with their retreating/not protecting their space with aerials, but if you remember what I said before about being able to punish SH fair if you shoot a second laser, you can see how that might have played out in this situation. The fairs he is doing are bad and should lead to huge pillar combos.



#3, 7:18 - He WDed forward between your lasers, so as soon as you recognize the forward movement while you do the second laser, you have the green light to approach with a SHFFL. You can run up grab to read the shield, but if he grabs it might just beat yours because you have to move forward some. Because you didn't approach, you correctly felt your space was no longer protected. Without a laser out, you panicked and dashed back into shield. The problem with this kind of defense is Marth doesn't really care about spacing. His options all have insane range due to his speed and hitboxes. The hard part about the laser style I like to use is if you don't respond to his movements properly, you can be caught way out of position with no protection. Mixing in retreating/in place/approaching, pull back dairs can add a nice mixture of threat if you feel the Marth is getting in your space too much, but ultimately it seems like you shielded because you don't trust that the lasers will protect you. Between any two lasers, Marth can't hurt you, but if he moves forward between them, then you either need to strike or use a defensive hitbox becuase a third laser will not be safe at that range.

#3, 7:17 - Once you realize he backed off instead of destroying you for shielding in the corner (because he was anticipating you to approach after eating your laser at point blank range like you should have), you reestablished laser pressure. Unfortunately, similar to before, you follow up the laser with a SHFFL from too far away and he retreats. You're lucky to not get grabbed outright, but the fact that you're in such a bad position means you feel forced to dodge. Rolling away is a pretty hard dodge for Marth to cover if he has to retreat really far like he did here, but one thing I know Wes does well is abuse jab to keep himself safe. With Marth at 90% and fiending for a grab, he's unlikely to start crouching here, so jab is probably a good way to cover your tracks if you do end up doing a bad approach. I recall you talking about that kind of jab in your Falco ditto analysis, so I imagine you know exactly what I'm talking about.
 

Dr Peepee

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How does Falco cover the basic options off of ledge? Roll, getup attack, standard getup, and tournament winner both under and over 100%. Does Falco have to pick different options depending on the character? Or is it one size fits all? Some of the options such as roll and tournament winner seem pretty basic, but I'm looking for a more in depth look. Maybe noting things such as "Falco can place a lingering dair to cover standard getup on reaction" or something. Perhaps there's already a thread dedicated to this, but it would be nice to get a newer perspective as well. Not looking forward to information related to ledge dashing, rather focus on the basic ledge options.
Lingering Dair will cover most of them, and when that doesn't work delayed Bair either hits, gives you time to react before/after the Bair. Simplest way to answer it I think.

Sup team, I have a few gifs of me vs Marth, I'd love to hear thoughts if yalls can :D (PP / Bones)

1. https://gfycat.com/EuphoricOblongHorseshoecrab

Ground game, Marth is mixing up shield / power shield and wd oos and take laser jab. Having trouble illuminating the ground game in my head a little. Thoughts?

2. https://gfycat.com/LeanHonorableBass

Here i do a decent job of jumping over the power shields but still feel like I'm missing opportunities, should i be looking to jump over the PS with more aggressive options like approaching late aerials or something? Maybe just more aggression after the laser that jumped over the PS like laser > dash grab or something.

3. https://gfycat.com/FaithfulBabyishKrill

I think this shield I do is extraneous and I tend to do when I'm a little spooked. I also have a big problem with picking panic options after whiffing aerials, here I panic and spot dodge right after the whiffed Nair.

Thanks in advance!
1. In the beginning, you get him super off balance and he does a panic Nair OOS after shielding. You should have put more pressure on at least after you confirm the Nair, if not before. Then he mostly shields and moves backward and this gives you more of a chance to take stage. The PS he does get could be avoided by shooting lower so it's harder for him to hit or you can jump over it if he does hit it. When you do end up attacking, it's from quite far away. I'd suggest more dash in laser in place to keep yourself safe but get more pressure as a starting point.

2. You got next to him twice after doing good jump ins and didn't shine. I think both times you got in shine would have worked.

3. Well if he immediate grabbed you'd have beaten him for sure but he had to keep backing up to avoid your Nair iirc. It may be helpful to add in jabs on landing or Ftilt even to keep your opponent's timing on whiff punishing honest.
 

Squidster

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Dope, both perspective are sick.

@Bones

I feel like this sentence: “Between any two lasers, Marth can't hurt you, but if he moves forward between them, then you either need to strike or use a defensive hitbox becuase a third laser will not be safe at that range.” Kinda exemplifies my fear. I think Marths that are really fast leave me a quarter beat behind and I end up always seeing the situation in hindsight after I’ve already picked my post laser action. Like “ah yes he was further than I expected so I was too far to approach there” or “oh he was SUPER close I coulda gone for a grab there.” You talking about paying attention to Marth moving forward and mapping out where he’ll be after the next laser is really interesting though, I’ll look out for that more, it’s possible I’m not necessarily looking for the right things so my reactions aren’t primed to recognize scenarios.

@PPMD

1. Dash forward laser in place is a clean little solution I think. I’ve been trying to implement more half approaching laser which I think is similar if not exactly the same? Idk if there’s nuance between dash forward laser in place and half approaching laser.

2. Similar to what I said in my response to Bones, I think I regularly find myself a quarter beat behind where I don’t recognize that I land on top of him able to shine until after I’ve already committed to picking my post laser option. I think it mostly comes down to not necessarily looking for the right things though, after rewatching the gif it seems obvious that I should be looking for shine after my approaching lasers lol.

3. Makes sense. Nowadays though people just hold down and spam grab during their grab so its possible my jab woulda been CC grabbed anyways, but I’ve seen you do lots of jabs that end up hitting shield and messing up opponents timings and you have good mixups off of it so it’s definitely something I could develop more.
 

Dr Peepee

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1. not sure what you mean by half approaching unless you mean drift back or something.

2. I think having the option in mind will help a lot. If that doesn't solve it play with some ideas and if nothing works we can try something else.

3. Yeah that's fair, so you can still Ftilt or dash back for quick options that wouldn't normally lose to CC.
 

Squidster

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1. Basically I dash > short hop > let go of forward before I leave the ground and I end up traveling like half the distance of a normal SH, no drift back even needed, it's pretty dope.
 

Bones0

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Dope, both perspective are sick.

@Bones

I feel like this sentence: “Between any two lasers, Marth can't hurt you, but if he moves forward between them, then you either need to strike or use a defensive hitbox becuase a third laser will not be safe at that range.” Kinda exemplifies my fear. I think Marths that are really fast leave me a quarter beat behind and I end up always seeing the situation in hindsight after I’ve already picked my post laser action. Like “ah yes he was further than I expected so I was too far to approach there” or “oh he was SUPER close I coulda gone for a grab there.” You talking about paying attention to Marth moving forward and mapping out where he’ll be after the next laser is really interesting though, I’ll look out for that more, it’s possible I’m not necessarily looking for the right things so my reactions aren’t primed to recognize scenarios.

@PPMD

1. Dash forward laser in place is a clean little solution I think. I’ve been trying to implement more half approaching laser which I think is similar if not exactly the same? Idk if there’s nuance between dash forward laser in place and half approaching laser.

2. Similar to what I said in my response to Bones, I think I regularly find myself a quarter beat behind where I don’t recognize that I land on top of him able to shine until after I’ve already committed to picking my post laser option. I think it mostly comes down to not necessarily looking for the right things though, after rewatching the gif it seems obvious that I should be looking for shine after my approaching lasers lol.

3. Makes sense. Nowadays though people just hold down and spam grab during their grab so its possible my jab woulda been CC grabbed anyways, but I’ve seen you do lots of jabs that end up hitting shield and messing up opponents timings and you have good mixups off of it so it’s definitely something I could develop more.
Well you're always going to be "behind" in the sense that Marth will move forward before you can react, which is why the second laser is so crucial. It gives you a timing buffer to react to their movement off of the first laser. If they WD back after the first laser and you shoot a second, you have all of that time the second laser is coming out to recognize and close space with an approaching laser. If they move forward after the first laser, you have to get out of the idea that you need to catch their movement forward with an attack. Sometimes it's a worthwhile read, but if you catch their movement forward with your second laser, you have all of that time your second laser is hitting to react to their movement. As soon as you realize they moved forward, you can rely on your second laser hitting at least their shield and grab, you can approach because he's too close to defend against laser SHFFL, or if you find yourself feeling unsafe, just start out by using fadeaway dair.

Fading away after the second laser is pretty safe even if he retreats or stays in place because it's still really hard for him to whiff punish, and if he moves in there's a chance you'll hit him trying to aerial OoS after the second laser. That is what I spammed a lot when I was first getting used to the concept of reacting to the movement off the first laser because I was like you in the sense that I was not too good at reacting to it, partly because I had an irrational fear of Marth's range.
 

Squidster

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Aight I have plenty to work on vs Marth for now.

Falco ditto now has been a bit of a thorn for me lately. I just reread this post by PPMD on reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comme...lco_vs_falco/dngc201/?st=j9q5c8hg&sh=3fa8f886

Gonna try to layout a structure for the MU here and then study vods and possibly find gifs of weird situations to me in the next few days. I think this matchup is really complicated and it feels like everyone has their own little niche within the matchup that they like to play and it forces you to play their game and ignore the rest of it, but maybe that’s just coming from my lack of knowledge / understanding of the whole thing.

More or less it seems like the matchup breaks down to ground game (with laser control and vs laser control) and platform game (from platforms and vs platforms.)

Ground Game
I’ll just list defensive options and what they beat / lose to since both sides are important since it’s a ditto.

Take laser turnaround Utilt: you mention Dair approaches beat this but Nair approaches lose. Also slight dash dance before approaching beats this pretty hard. So mainly the Utilt beats Nair approaches and approaching laser or run up options like grab or shine or something from certain ranges.

Shield > shine oos. Beats early approaching aerials (Nair or Dair). Loses to late aerials, grab, shine grab, approaching laser, dash dancing in front of them puts em in a bad spot.

Shield laser > Bair oos. Beats approaching basically all approaches, loses to 2 consecutive lasers or maybe slight dash dance before approach at certain spacings / drifts.

Roll. “escapes” approaches. Loses to dash dance, consecutive lasers, etc.

Full hop. “escapes” basically everything except reading it with full hop aerials or something idk. Switches the game to the vertical game / platform game I guess.

Shield laser > SHL oos. Beats dash dances, might trade lasers if they consecutive lasers, probably loses to approaches with Nair or Dair and the bigger payoff might just be based on %.

Take Laser > Dash back / shield wd back. Beats approaches but it can be hard to wiff punish. Gives up space vs consecutive lasers but sometimes it gives you the space you need to fight back for laser control or fh out safely. Only REALLY loses to approaching laser or half approaching laser.

Take laser > approaching sh Nair or something. I think there’s a little bit of a RPS mixup with aggressive options out of taking laser like sh over low laser and running shine under high laser. You also can running PS > Dair or something to be aggressive out of your opponents laser but all of these require both you to be close and your opponent to not account for it as they have frame advantage after the laser. If they have a tendency to laser > dash back / dash dance a lot though you might want to check em and go in after lasers every now and then or just laser out of laser idk.

Powershields. Long range you can just PS > laser if you lose laser control to take it back and close range you can threaten run up PS > Dair or something. I find PS to be decent in the matchup just because the ground game really does focus on lasering a lot so lots of Falcos end up lasering really predictably. To play around it you can just space a little further and shoot low lasers as per usual.

From this list I don’t REALLY a reason for Nair approaches after laser over Dair approaches though it might be better at catching them if they laser at low % or something idk.

Platform Game
I think part of my real problem comes in vs aerial opponents who just full hop the second they get hit by a laser ever and then play the platform game. Your post actually does a reasonable job of covering both sides of this game as well though. I think if we’re being thorough we’d probably have to list options from side and top platforms for every stage individually. I’ll be more brief though.

I want to list options but I’m having trouble finding a structure for it which is likely why I have trouble playing the situations out.

Spamming SHL on the ground especially high SHL can catch them coming down if they attempt to drop down laser, but they can time it between the lasers but its hard to time it between lasers from the top platform? Side platform they can drop through or run off laser.

Run off ff aerials cover a certain space pretty well but is limited to the where the platforms go to.

Sh aerials cover some space but can be lasered if Falco has space to get that out or it can lose to Utilt at certain spacings. I imagine trying to Utilt opponent’s Dair isn’t worth it unless you’re at super low %.

Full hops to threaten them on platforms can threaten things like rising Bair or falling Dair if you get above em. Not sure how these interactions work really.

So yeah I feel like the ground game is starting to be illuminated but if they mostly to avoid that game and full hop the second they lose laser control I have trouble pinning them down or seeing structure in the matchup. If I’m on a platform I also don’t feel very comfortable so the matchup ends up being pretty weird for me. This writeup feels a little all over the place which works because the matchup feels all over the place to me right now lol. Hopefully things can be simplified a bit as we discuss it?
 

Dr Peepee

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Turnaround Utilt only beats Nair if you're far enough away otherwise Nair can trade or beat Utilt.

Shielding loses to early spaced aerials which can also beat Utilt(though you could just do mid or late aerials to space around Utilt too).

Bair OOS can lose if both Falcos are close together but otherwise yes.

Lots of these things are spacing dependent as I go down the list but you're working on the right track.

Yeah coming between lasers from the top plat works very well especially if laser pattern is predictable/predicted.

Can also WD off aerial to get Bair farther.

Just figured I'd touch on a few things for ideas and we can start there/let you work on it/let Bones fill in more.
 

Squidster

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Ah yeah definitely didn't think about early spaced aerials.

I think once I start to figure out how to play vs platform opponents I'll have a pretty solid starting structure.
 

SalaMenace

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Look at Armada's edgeguard here (he's the red Falco) https://youtu.be/cJcQKl9R8kM?t=800

I thought this was cool so I tried to practice this, but I can't seem to shine firefox consistently without getting burned. I'm not sure if I'm just bad, or this is a really inconsistent thing to do. Is this something you guys can pull off regularly?
 

Bones0

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I have been struggling in the ditto as well, so I am definitely interested in figuring out a coherent strategy. The biggest structure I've been relying on is vertical positioning. So ground vs. ground, ground vs. plat/air, and plat/air vs. plat/air are the 3 general categories of positioning. The first set I analyzed, I was giving up ground control constantly just trying to laser Falco off the plats, and the opponent would sneak back down to the ground and punish me.

The next time I played him, I focused on maintaining laser control, but antiairing Falco from side plats seems impossible. Creating a sort of "laser net" for them to fall into is really effective if you time it properly with relation to their drop down, but they can just react to your laser and run off/drop through with a laser of their own after. I also have to be ready to antiair run off/SH off aerials with a possible FF vs. no FF mixup. It seemed so difficult to deal with, I'm wondering if perching on the side plats is actually the place you want to be, and perhaps the matchup will shift to who can control the side plats better. Alternatively, I need to be more aggressive with my antiairing when they are on the side plats instead of passively lasering/waiting for them to attack. Similar to fighting Sheik/Marth's run off plat fair, it might be best to proactively approach with a SH uair to protect yourself and prevent them from dropping through. The problem I see with this as opposed to lasering is that they can just shield drop punish or dodge it and drop through to punish.

Another thing I want to really figure out is how in the world do you play FD in this mu? It should be simpler to understand without plats, so maybe that is the best way to go about breaking down the structure of the matchup. Once we understand what to do on flat ground, it's easier to add plats into the equation separately.


Look at Armada's edgeguard here (he's the red Falco) https://youtu.be/cJcQKl9R8kM?t=800

I thought this was cool so I tried to practice this, but I can't seem to shine firefox consistently without getting burned. I'm not sure if I'm just bad, or this is a really inconsistent thing to do. Is this something you guys can pull off regularly?
I can do it consistently. It's just one of those things you have to practice specifically. Use 20xx replay to send Fox off stage and have him up-B (give yourself as much time after loading the state as possible), then practice FHing or SHing out and shining. If you get burned before he moves, you were too early, and if you were burned by the beginning of his movement, then you were too late. It's that simple.
 

kaptinkillem

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Speaking of edgeguarding, ive done an edgeguard a few times that seems really good where you go off and hit fox or falco with a dair timed to hit them right as their up b starts to move, so you trade. It's basically a guaranteed kill at any percent if they're below the stage, and since you trade you can always make it back to stage. Seems very consistent to me. Seems pretty similar to the armada shine with fox, but I don't really see any falcos go for it.
 

Dr Peepee

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I feel like sometimes I don't trade which is why I don't go for it, not to mention they could go another direction if they saw me coming if I go low and we both die lol.
 

Cucumber

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How do you sdi fox's full hop upair on a platform?
Let's say I choose to tech roll to one side of the platform. Should I always sdi to slide off? If I notice he is jumping across the whole platform to cover my roll, would sdi into the platform be a good option?
 

SalaMenace

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I can do it consistently. It's just one of those things you have to practice specifically. Use 20xx replay to send Fox off stage and have him up-B (give yourself as much time after loading the state as possible), then practice FHing or SHing out and shining. If you get burned before he moves, you were too early, and if you were burned by the beginning of his movement, then you were too late. It's that simple.
Oh so it's about timing rather than spacing? Like there's a window right before he travels where there's no hitbox?
 

Dr Peepee

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How do you sdi fox's full hop upair on a platform?
Let's say I choose to tech roll to one side of the platform. Should I always sdi to slide off? If I notice he is jumping across the whole platform to cover my roll, would sdi into the platform be a good option?
Well I think no matter their positioning it's best to slideoff unless they SH Uair on lower side platforms maybe? I haven't ever seen that interaction or tested it though. Also at percents you can't get knocked down from Uair you'd also not need to hold down or that direction lol

There is a mid height laser we can shoot in the ditto so the enemy falco can't dash under it or sh over it right?
I don't think so? You have to shoot fairly high to cover SH iirc but I never fully looked into it admittedly. Bones probably knows.
 

Ultrasatanicus

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The recent posts have given me a fresh perspective on how approach ground game vs marth. I’ve been struggling with a couple of things that you guys might be able to help me contextualize. It’s possible that through describing my problems I’ll find the answer, but I’ll start typing nonetheless.

One of my main strategies is one that druggedfox has brought up in his tweets (and personal discussions with me) which is SH low laser > SH high laser to jump over if they had powershielded. What tends to happen to me is that Marths are able to PS the first laser > wavedash > dash attack me for doing this which is completely unreactable in my experience and can lead to a grab combo/juggle or a knock down. They can cover an incredible amount of space doing this, and the SH high laser isn’t the only thing it beats. If I choose to do a fade away Dair after I shoot my initial laser (with the idea being zoning out forward movement from marth while maintaining stage control) I get hit by his disjoint and just get beaten out. I can CC this but that loses to things like run up grab (terrifying). I feel like sometimes if they’re forcing this mix up on me that I’m required to do an approaching early aerial which seems to get beaten by a million things (shield grab, pivot grab, CC your nair/jumping if you dair, etc.). I simply don’t feel comfortable holding center stage because of this run up > grab and dash attack mix up. Is there something I’m missing here? Should I be standing even farther away to widen the range marth would have to move to approach me with these mix ups? That would open up the amount of time I have to react to his change in position/direction as well, but I’m afraid I’ll be too far away to properly punish a whiff, and I’m also afraid of marths that are able to switch up their direction inbetween lasers. Let me know if I have any misconceptions or if you guys have any solid ideas on how to feel more comfortable against this mix up! I’d really appreciate it :)
 

Ultrasatanicus

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Pressuring marth on the ledge:

I’ve never sat down and thought about the exact mix ups you get to force when marth is on the ledge, but I figure I’ll start typing and see where I end up. I’d love for you guys to add to the discussion.

I always remember PP’s forward smash vs M2k’s forward air from the ledge at apex and wonder how that worked! What type of conditioning was done? Was it the spacing that made it work? What were the risks involved? Player specific read? So many things went into 1 F smash and I realize my ability to pressure marth on the ledge isn’t nearly as well thought out (it seems).

My go-to ledge pressure technique is to crouch and hold down + forward near the ledge and either down smash or shine them if they choose to do either rising up air/nair/fair, react to regular get up with shine/down smash, or react to ledge roll with a forward smash. At a glance I really think this sort of positional pressure is effective. I’ve used it against Zain and smashgod as well as my local decent marths with relative success, but have run into a couple problems on occasion. A good ledge dash seems to be trouble for me. If they ledge dash through me and either shield or dash I’ve lost all positional advantage and it seems like I have no solid reactionary counter to this. The reward for being correct seems so juicy to me though! If I get a CC down smash on them for doing a rising double jump aerial they’re literally dead at most %’s. Also, I’m not sure how feasible it is for marths to consistently do ledge dashes that have actionable intangibility. Marths are generally pretty lazy off the ledge in my (limited) experience. I also think back to pp doing 200 million lasers with dash dances mixed in against M2k’s marth sitting on the ledge on Pokémon stadium (water transformation) and thinking that M2k had no good counterplay in that situation, but can’t reasonably explain why. If marth does regular ledge stand and gets hit by a laser it just seems like the classic “marth’s in the corner and falco is in center stage” conundrum that I still have trouble dealing with (see my previous post). How TRULY good is my advantage if I’m lasering marth when he’s in the corner? I don’t yet fully understand. Also, I attempt to use side platforms with SH backward > fall through platform to whiff punish as they come onto the stage with some success, but generally feels like a large risk if my timing is called out.

Sorry if that was just a giant mumble, I’m on a plane with no internet and have 2 hours to type stream of consciousness marth vs falco theory and figured you guys might be able to help me out. Thanks in advance for anyone who responds! I’m very excited to gain a more solid understand of the risk/reward that comes with different positions in this match up.
 

Ultrasatanicus

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Something that I’ve been messing around with against marth is forward throw. I hold them close-ish to the ledge and let them DI in (almost no reason not to in their position). If you are successful with the DI trap it seems to combo into dash attack at certain mid %’s (I haven’t done any actually testing, but it works consistently in practice). I stole this from silentwolf’s fox from a LONG time ago. I’m wondering if you guys find this mixup worthwhile or if I should just always be up throwing which in my opinion is becoming worse and worse as people are figuring out how to SDI the lasers properly. Of course you can still shark under them even if they get great SDI, but getting a solid punish on a 50/50 DI mix up seems pretty great to me. Also, if they DI the throw out they’ll find themselves off stage and have to burn their double jump to get to the ledge. Might be stupid cheese! Let me know :)
 

Squidster

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First Post: PS > dash attack / grab mixup

Yeah so I’ve been SUPER focused on this sort of ground game vs Marth lately and I have a few “solutions” to this problem.

There’s two mantras I’ve been employing recently that have made a pretty big difference in my game:
1. Space further away
2. Be more decisive when you land a laser close up

1. Spacing far away solves so many problems at once its insane. The biggest “downside” to spacing far away is, as you said, you don’t get to wiff punish things anymore. But lasers give you such firm control that you get go into threat range on your terms basically whenever you want. Marth is kind of either stuck or he’s moving forward a lot which leaves him susceptible to a lot things. Generally I space far and “slowly” approach with half approaching lasers until I reach him and mix in dash back turnaround lasers when I sense he’s moving forward a lot.

2. Being more decisive when you land a laser eliminates a slew of Marths options up close. For example, low laser > approaching Dair beats all variations of powershield > wavedash, that is to say, if you’re jumping over a low laser you don’t have to do so with a high laser.

If I’m far away I’m a big fan of low laser > approaching low laser. It’s much easier to jump over a power shielded laser when approaching since you’re moving the opposite direction as a laser. I’ve being mostly doing half approaching lasers lately to minimize risks and still maintaining this laser control. If I’m close, low laser > approaching Dair is REALLY powerful. Mixed in with laser > dash back (and all the mixups that come with this) Marth starts to be REALLY spooked when you get close and you get to feel relatively safe.

The biggest takeaway here I’d say is that I’m not a fan of this high laser you’re describing after jumping over a PS and this high laser is whats giving the Marth so much breathing room to spook you with all these mixups.
 

Squidster

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Second Post: Marth on the ledge

Yeah this scenario is annoying to solve because in high pressure tournament situations it’s so much easier to just walk to center and hope Marth gets off lmao.

I’ve done the crouch you thing you described and it’s def amazing at times but I ran into the same problems you described as well as just failing to react to ledge hop counter and fade back ledge hop Fair > go back to the ledge.

When I’m too high % to CC sometimes I just shield by the ledge and kinda accomplish the same thing with doing Dair / shine OOS vs bad ledge hop aerials but ledge dash and just holding the ledge is still a problem.

Lasering a ways away is amazing and super limits Marths options and I haven’t yet encountered a Marth who’s down to super wait out that scenario but if you can land a laser and start mixing in these laser dash back and half approaching laser pressure like I described before it’s only a matter of time before Marth swings too close and gets punished.

Sometimes I like just playing the mixup of spooking him that I’m gonna grab the ledge. Run up shine > turnaround > wd back to the stage a couple times or just face away from the ledge and shield > wd towards the ledge a couple times. If you face away from the ledge with shield you’re able to punish bad ledge shop aerials as well as threaten wd back to steal the ledge from him if he keeps stalling. This seems pretty powerful vs opponents who really do stay on the ledge for awhile.

I def didn't conclusively answer your question or anything but like you said hopefully the continued discussion is helpful :D
 

Squidster

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Third Post: Fthrow vs Marth

I think there’s def something there, Fthrow seems better than I used to think actually. I played Macd’s Falco of all things with secondaries like Marth or Peach and he does a ton of Fthrow > approaching sh fair or something and he caught me a surprising amount of time, and trying to avoid it in the obvious ways like blowing your jump can be equally dangerous.

As of right now I generally still always Uthrow and haven’t experimented much with Fthrow but I’ll give it a try and report back what I find (one of my roommates is a good Marth player so I can test out things easily lol.)
 

Dr Peepee

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The recent posts have given me a fresh perspective on how approach ground game vs marth. I’ve been struggling with a couple of things that you guys might be able to help me contextualize. It’s possible that through describing my problems I’ll find the answer, but I’ll start typing nonetheless.

One of my main strategies is one that druggedfox has brought up in his tweets (and personal discussions with me) which is SH low laser > SH high laser to jump over if they had powershielded. What tends to happen to me is that Marths are able to PS the first laser > wavedash > dash attack me for doing this which is completely unreactable in my experience and can lead to a grab combo/juggle or a knock down. They can cover an incredible amount of space doing this, and the SH high laser isn’t the only thing it beats. If I choose to do a fade away Dair after I shoot my initial laser (with the idea being zoning out forward movement from marth while maintaining stage control) I get hit by his disjoint and just get beaten out. I can CC this but that loses to things like run up grab (terrifying). I feel like sometimes if they’re forcing this mix up on me that I’m required to do an approaching early aerial which seems to get beaten by a million things (shield grab, pivot grab, CC your nair/jumping if you dair, etc.). I simply don’t feel comfortable holding center stage because of this run up > grab and dash attack mix up. Is there something I’m missing here? Should I be standing even farther away to widen the range marth would have to move to approach me with these mix ups? That would open up the amount of time I have to react to his change in position/direction as well, but I’m afraid I’ll be too far away to properly punish a whiff, and I’m also afraid of marths that are able to switch up their direction inbetween lasers. Let me know if I have any misconceptions or if you guys have any solid ideas on how to feel more comfortable against this mix up! I’d really appreciate it :)
I'm pretty sure you can high laser before he can dash attack. If it's really true he has that much time, I'd need to see video evidence if you have it. Having time to act after lasering means you can be in the process of starting another laser as the PS happens so it just seems impossible for Marth to PS then WD then dash then dash attack before your laser comes out. So it might be possible you're waiting and trying to confirm something, or doing a dash you aren't expecting etc if my belief is true.

Regardless, holding down vs dash attack is pretty good but not always reliable since Falco is benefiting from moving a lot so he can't hold down too often. If you can hold down vs dash attack you probably should though since Marth's lag is so bad on it you can run/WD shine him out of his lag or you can SH Nair/Dair mixup or even work Utilt if you wanted to I guess as well as Fsmash.

More to the point, I like countering PS by either jumping over with an attack(you could drift back if concerned about shield maybe? though against Marth's shield grab that may not matter if you hit shield), moving to a side platform and dropping with another laser(I like this one a lot), taking the laser then jabbing/Ftilting them as they come in(they won't be holding down but I save it for more last ditch situations), and while I don't do this I think Z-PS'ing the laser back at them would be pretty strong if you could predict when and how they'd go for it. I also try shooting lasers as low as I can to make them super hard to regular PS and occasionally throw in easier ones to mess with their confidence in their PS game.

Finally, you probably are standing too close to Marth. You should be quite far away from him(longer than your dash SH Nair no FF range in fact) and then only get closer once you have laser control established. Most people fight too close so I'd experiment with a farther away starting position.

Pressuring marth on the ledge:

I’ve never sat down and thought about the exact mix ups you get to force when marth is on the ledge, but I figure I’ll start typing and see where I end up. I’d love for you guys to add to the discussion.

I always remember PP’s forward smash vs M2k’s forward air from the ledge at apex and wonder how that worked! What type of conditioning was done? Was it the spacing that made it work? What were the risks involved? Player specific read? So many things went into 1 F smash and I realize my ability to pressure marth on the ledge isn’t nearly as well thought out (it seems).

My go-to ledge pressure technique is to crouch and hold down + forward near the ledge and either down smash or shine them if they choose to do either rising up air/nair/fair, react to regular get up with shine/down smash, or react to ledge roll with a forward smash. At a glance I really think this sort of positional pressure is effective. I’ve used it against Zain and smashgod as well as my local decent marths with relative success, but have run into a couple problems on occasion. A good ledge dash seems to be trouble for me. If they ledge dash through me and either shield or dash I’ve lost all positional advantage and it seems like I have no solid reactionary counter to this. The reward for being correct seems so juicy to me though! If I get a CC down smash on them for doing a rising double jump aerial they’re literally dead at most %’s. Also, I’m not sure how feasible it is for marths to consistently do ledge dashes that have actionable intangibility. Marths are generally pretty lazy off the ledge in my (limited) experience. I also think back to pp doing 200 million lasers with dash dances mixed in against M2k’s marth sitting on the ledge on Pokémon stadium (water transformation) and thinking that M2k had no good counterplay in that situation, but can’t reasonably explain why. If marth does regular ledge stand and gets hit by a laser it just seems like the classic “marth’s in the corner and falco is in center stage” conundrum that I still have trouble dealing with (see my previous post). How TRULY good is my advantage if I’m lasering marth when he’s in the corner? I don’t yet fully understand. Also, I attempt to use side platforms with SH backward > fall through platform to whiff punish as they come onto the stage with some success, but generally feels like a large risk if my timing is called out.

Sorry if that was just a giant mumble, I’m on a plane with no internet and have 2 hours to type stream of consciousness marth vs falco theory and figured you guys might be able to help me out. Thanks in advance for anyone who responds! I’m very excited to gain a more solid understand of the risk/reward that comes with different positions in this match up.
Well, if you can get your CC to work then that strategy is good. If Marth hits their edgedash/haxdash then it's not so good. I think the M2K strategy of retreating Fair edge regrab can also be difficult for this strategy to handle but I haven't labbed that. However, this seems to related to the first post as you noted so I guess maybe these will solve each other in a sense.

Something that I’ve been messing around with against marth is forward throw. I hold them close-ish to the ledge and let them DI in (almost no reason not to in their position). If you are successful with the DI trap it seems to combo into dash attack at certain mid %’s (I haven’t done any actually testing, but it works consistently in practice). I stole this from silentwolf’s fox from a LONG time ago. I’m wondering if you guys find this mixup worthwhile or if I should just always be up throwing which in my opinion is becoming worse and worse as people are figuring out how to SDI the lasers properly. Of course you can still shark under them even if they get great SDI, but getting a solid punish on a 50/50 DI mix up seems pretty great to me. Also, if they DI the throw out they’ll find themselves off stage and have to burn their double jump to get to the ledge. Might be stupid cheese! Let me know :)
Yeah I was doing the same thing with Fthrow. You can jab and Ftilt after it sometimes too I think which can be pretty good. Even Marth DI'ing away isn't awful if you can edgeguard well because then it's an easier position for that. In general I think Falcos should not only be working more on sharking after Uthrow since nothing combos anymore, but also mixing Fthrow and Bthrow with it for at least positional advantage and to change people's comfort with being grabbed so they don't know how to DI, as well as learning as many true and pseudo combos on various DIs in those positions. This is definitely the type of situation you can blow up a lot with this mixup too. If they begin DI'ing out then Uthrow gets way stronger since the lasers won't hit them and you can just Dair.

Oh and, can you please just edit your posts or hit enter when you want to start new thoughts next time? Just gets kinda jumbled if you multi post a lot =p




Squidster Squidster good job vs wes btw. You gotta watch for when he switches into camping mode but you really put the theory to work which was nice to see =)
 
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Squidster

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My understanding is that his high laser is going over Marth's head when Marth dash attacks.

And thanks!

Westballz is actually so good on the top platform lol. I feel like I’m spooked and threatened the whole time and if I jump to hit him he’s either shielding ready to shield drop shine or he just full hopped and is falling on my head with a Dair or something.

On bigger stages I could get away with lasering the top platform from the side or something. On Yoshis I kinda just spaced fh Bairs or tried to get there first, but from the top platform I was not nearly as threatening as he was so it wasn’t as good a spot for me.

The ground game felt good, even when I lost it the structure of the matchup was making sense to me.
 

Dr Peepee

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You got super anxious and he just WAITED for you lol. You always got super angsty and lunged at him from far away which became really predictable. Slow it down and watch, and in those analytic moments you will see you can make a lot of choices and have time to pick different options. Wes was waiting for you a lot, but even if he wasn't you can still counter him coming at you. So if you want you can cover his ways in first, but then if he doesn't give you anything you need ways to threaten his platform game. I think that will turn things around for you a ton. Keep it up man
 

Bones0

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1. Low laser, high laser to beat PS
- PSing should be pretty rare if you're shooting low lasers. I am pretty confident I could hit them with upwards of 70% consistency with my Marth, but most Falcos don't consistently shoot low, and I also am just way better at PSing than any actual Marth main I've seen (/modesty).

- Before I go in depth with the situation, it's worth mentioning that PSing the PSed laser back at them is really good, and once you get used to timing your shield based on the distance between you, you'll find you can hit it relatively consistently, especially on higher lasers. This lets you really stack on the laser pressure all at once and almost guarantees a safe approach if it works, but the downside is you can potentially get stuck in shield if you miss the PS, and your consecutive laser pace is slowed down if you're constantly shielding in anticipation of a PS.

- They should barely have enough time to get their shield up, let alone dash attack (which is quite slow). Keep in mind that the goal isn't to shoot the second laser high. Often Falco players shoot the second one high because they need to get over the first PSed laser and aren't able to FF. This is another reason shooting the first laser low is very important. When the PSed laser is just grazing the ground, you can start your second laser immediately, whereas if you need to jump over a mid-height laser, you have to time your jump so that the apex of your SH coincides with the laser, and consequently, you will need to delay your laser because you want a laser low enough to hit Marth, but you are prevented from lasering earlier and FFing in order to jump over the first. Squid is also right on the money when he mentions approaching over PSed lasers being much easier than jumping in place.

- One thing you mentioned which struck me as strange was that you referred to Marth's DA as unreactable. This makes me think you are waiting too long (i.e. waiting at all) before shooting the second laser. There's no downside to shooting the second laser immediately. The number one reason I see Falcos getting hit by Marth DA is they are trying to DD. Marth has too much range for DD to be useful if you anticipate him staying grounded imo. Even when you properly anticipate moves like dash attack or run up grab/dtilt, how often are you able to DD around these? More importantly, how often are you able to punish them even if you do outspace them? It's extremely hard even for Fox to whiff punish Marth's options in neutral, so with Falco's much slower speed, he doesn't have a shot. You either need to attack preemptively, or maintain laser control so that they don't have time to get these long range options out. The times I think DDing is best are when you're closer to Marth, especially when he's shielding. From shield, Marth's only real threats to you are WD forward grab and aerial OoS. Aerials OoS, unlike Marth's options from a stand still, have much less range and are more liable to be whiff punished with a proper DD. The WD forward grab simply has a lot of startup, and requires Marth to spend that startup within range of all your hardest hitting options (primarily dair).

- If, after all of this, you still feel like you need to approach to protect yourself, I recommend dash jumping forward then drifting back asap. This type of pull back aerial is crucial for allowing you to threaten the space in front of you (covers any forward movement that he does), but also makes it much harder for him to whiff punish with DD grab because he is dashing back with your full SHFFL length in mind. Even with Marth's massive grab range, the disparity is quite stark, and more than enough to avoid most DD grab attempts.

- If you have center, but have not established laser control, I would honestly recommend giving up center just to do so. I'd rather dash back laser and work my way forwards with consecutive lasers than to play the risky laser vs. approach mixup that is usually required to beat a Marth that's within his DA/running grab range.



2. Marth at the ledge
- I have a terrible tendency to challenge Marth at the ledge. Whether it's CCing, shielding, or trying to use jumps/plats to whiff punish his LH option with an aerial, it never seems worth it. The risk is just way too huge, especially when you consider that the reward is often only resetting the situation where they get put back on the ledge with 15% more. I got to play Rishi the other day and after countless gimps, I decided I would just stop challenging him.

- Instead, I resolved to let him come back on stage, similar to Peach edgeguarding, and just keep a laser in his face for when he does. I saw much better success with this. I'm not sure what exactly you were doing if the laser wasn't working, as it's a fairly traditional pressure scenario. If you greet his ledge option with a laser, diving right in with an approach will at least meet his shield if not hit directly unless he A. counters, or B. rolls behind you. The rolling in is obviously a bad turn of events if it happens, so you need to discourage it as much as possible, and staying back to laser a second time so you're positioned to cover roll also deals with counter as you can react to the laser triggering it and punish the lag. Aside from that, the laser ensures he doesn't have enough time to really do anything except perhaps airdodge onto the side plat (a tactic PPU utilizes on Yoshi's). A Marth that's confident with reverse ledgedashing, especially if they immediately DJ onto the side plat after doing it, might throw a wrench into this formula, but I think in general they will just get hit by the laser as they slide off because of how frame tight Marth's reverse ledgedash is compared to Falcon's.



3. Fthrow
- If they DI up/in and you can combo from it (or if it's tight enough that they won't want to risk DJing), it seems like a worthwhile, especially at low %s, but I'm not sure why exactly a Marth would DI up/in for a low % Falco throw however. Dthrow he can DI away to the ledge (or simply react and change his tech direction before he hits the ground). Uthrow he usually wants to DI away to avoid the dair (at low %s DIing in might be preferable if he really wants to avoid being off stage). And bthrow never combos on him to my knowledge, but if Falco has a hard conversion possible on bthrow, I might reconsider this point.

- Regardless, Marth's certainly aren't afraid of Falco bthrow since no one does it. Most good Marths I play either DI away for uthrow or SDI the lasers away. I think I mentioned it earlier, but I generally view uthrow as having the same result as an fthrow. They end up on the ledge, but at least with uthrow I get to look for an opportunity to bair them out of the air before they drift to the ledge.

- If Marth is higher percent and actually can't afford to poorly DI an fthrow by the ledge, to me this just buffs uthrow even more as they DI in and get set up even better for an off stage dair KO.



Squidster Squidster
Can you articulate a bit about what structure you're currently using for the ditto? Were you just keeping in mind all of the different options you listed earlier in the discussion, or was there more behind it?
 
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makehersquirtle

Smash Rookie
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Messages
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Bones0 Bones0 In response to your post from earlier about the ditto, and the interaction on the side platform.

One option worth exploring is dash under where the are currently located then do a retreating fullhop backair to the top platform, or shine waveland onto platform. These threaten the space of the falco on the platform, and force him to commit more to defensive options, which you can then play around ( preemptive drop through /shield drop aerial, shielding, or drop through laser).

Once you have showed your opponent the ability to threaten this space, you can then start mixing in options that beat those options by countering them.
Counters:
1. Drop through aerial/laser gets beat by auto cancel back air or uptilt.
I think ac bair is probably better most of the time since you can act out of it quicker, sneak in an uptilt after to threaten them whif punishing you with a drop through afterwards, or can dash back after. ( also worth considering mixing in empty hops to make whif punishing harder).
2. Shield is probably the most difficult to deal with, but you could mixup dd under platforms/ waiting to react and punish shield drop aerials/ doing options like fullhop back air that safely threaten them coming out of shield. However, this becomes much more difficult if they can sd laser, and I'm not really sure what to do then.

Most importantly, i think lasering a lot in this position in this mu is really bad since your opponent can just react to your laser and drop through laser to regain laser control, and the risk reward of hitting your laser just isnt worth it.
 

Bones0

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Bones0 Bones0 In response to your post from earlier about the ditto, and the interaction on the side platform.

One option worth exploring is dash under where the are currently located then do a retreating fullhop backair to the top platform, or shine waveland onto platform. These threaten the space of the falco on the platform, and force him to commit more to defensive options, which you can then play around ( preemptive drop through /shield drop aerial, shielding, or drop through laser).

Once you have showed your opponent the ability to threaten this space, you can then start mixing in options that beat those options by countering them.
Counters:
1. Drop through aerial/laser gets beat by auto cancel back air or uptilt.
I think ac bair is probably better most of the time since you can act out of it quicker, sneak in an uptilt after to threaten them whif punishing you with a drop through afterwards, or can dash back after. ( also worth considering mixing in empty hops to make whif punishing harder).
2. Shield is probably the most difficult to deal with, but you could mixup dd under platforms/ waiting to react and punish shield drop aerials/ doing options like fullhop back air that safely threaten them coming out of shield. However, this becomes much more difficult if they can sd laser, and I'm not really sure what to do then.

Most importantly, i think lasering a lot in this position in this mu is really bad since your opponent can just react to your laser and drop through laser to regain laser control, and the risk reward of hitting your laser just isnt worth it.
I think the FH bair is a good idea, but the issue is getting close enough to actually do it. When Falco is on a side plat, it feels like drop through laser, run off laser, and run off dair give him a ton of good mixups to attack bottom mid. Against most characters I would wait in bottom mid and try to anti air direct attacks (utilt/aerial to beat their run off) or laser to catch them dropping down and abuse my positioning/frame advantage from there. The FH bair, AC bair, and utilt you're describing pretty much require me to already be near the plat, but the issue is advancing anywhere past center requires me to correctly predict their drop through/run off option with a laser/uair. If I try to laser them dropping through and they didn't, then they can drop through with a laser of their own on reaction and suddenly he has laser control.
 

makehersquirtle

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I think the FH bair is a good idea, but the issue is getting close enough to actually do it. When Falco is on a side plat, it feels like drop through laser, run off laser, and run off dair give him a ton of good mixups to attack bottom mid. Against most characters I would wait in bottom mid and try to anti air direct attacks (utilt/aerial to beat their run off) or laser to catch them dropping down and abuse my positioning/frame advantage from there. The FH bair, AC bair, and utilt you're describing pretty much require me to already be near the plat, but the issue is advancing anywhere past center requires me to correctly predict their drop through/run off option with a laser/uair. If I try to laser them dropping through and they didn't, then they can drop through with a laser of their own on reaction and suddenly he has laser control.


From what I could think of, there are two ideas that make sense from that position, and they kind of work in tandem.

1. Do a rising double laser onto the other side platform to regain laser control, work from there to close distance by then taking the top platform, or retaking center and work position from there.
2.Abuse the top platform. You can use this to set up the position previously described, and to help close space on the other Falco without the threat of any drop down laser or aerial options. Falco on a side platform can't do much about this unless he predicts the timing of your full hop to the top plat.

From the top platform , you can threaten their run off with a back air or dair to prevent your opponent from taking space, you can drop through and laser them to prevent them punishing your return to the bottom level of the stage with a drop through laser, or feint dropping through to bait them into doing something like a dash in aerial off the platform to try to call out your drop through options.

If they give up to much space you could take the side platform and then work position/ them being in the corner from there.

If they find a way to take space and get under you on ground level/ put you in a bad situation you could always jump to the other side platform from the top plat and set them up in a similar situation.
 

Squidster

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Squidster Squidster
Can you articulate a bit about what structure you're currently using for the ditto? Were you just keeping in mind all of the different options you listed earlier in the discussion, or was there more behind it?
Yeah I'm mostly talking about the ground game but basically my understanding of what to do in the different modes (having laser control, not having laser control, fighting for laser control) feels a lot better now than it used to.

Having laser control in general has been feeling a lot better in every matchup and was pretty easy to apply directly to the ditto. My mantras have been 1. Space further 2. Laser faster 3. Be more proactive to make sure every laser has a threat, be it a direct approach or a dash back (and all the threats off dash back.) By doing fast lasers and mixing up half approaching laser and dash back turnaround laser I feel SO in control and safe once I establish laser control that all they can really do is full hop (not literally but that’s often what they resort to).
Here's a dope gif of the half approaching laser:
https://gfycat.com/BigheartedBelatedCrane

When my opponent has laser control I’ve started to see the options better. I used to rely a lot on shield laser > Bair to stuff approaches but I realized take laser turnaround Utilt nets bigger punishes and fairs better vs 2 consecutive lasers (because you’re still on the ground when you take the next laser.) Basically it forces them to approach in certain ways to delay their attack timing or use more dair or approach from REALLY close in order to threaten and all of these basically result in you having a little more breathing room. I either used this room to dash back and hopefully dodge an approach letting me regain laser control or I use this breathing room to pick an aggressive option like run under laser > shine or sh over laser > Dair which is generally a powerful mixup vs people who aren’t super cognizant of their laser height and spacing. If they’re maintaining the tension really well and I don’t see the openings I kinda just retreat more until I get quite far away and then fight for a laser or a full hop or something.

Basically I found myself struggling a lot in the past trying to regain laser control and this time around I was so much more comfortable with them having laser control that I didn’t panic roll or sh laser despite their frame advantage and get bopped for it or something.

Lastly when fighting for laser control I still kinda do the mixup I describe with sh over their laser or run under their laser, that mixup mixed in with just continuing to fight the laser war until I can be the one shooting faster and at more consistently deliberate heights felt good. If I lost the laser war being more willing to retreat or full hop instead of hanging onto the idea that I can force laser control.

The vertical game is starting to make more sense as well but I’m still working on that so I don’t quite yet feel ready to speak to that. I do think though that generally speaking what you’re describing here with your opponent taking to the side platform is going to be way more common when you have control and if you have laser control you should be pushing to stay pretty close to them. This means that if they try to take to the platform they do have a risk since you’re close enough to threaten quite a lot of stuff.

Top platform seems like a slower and steadier game than I used to believe so just being cognizant of their threats and taking your time to threaten them seems good.
 

Bones0

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How do you do the half approaching laser? Do you have to let go of forward really quick? I can do it some of the time just based on instinct, but I'm not sure what exactly I'm doing that keeps the dash short. It seems very deceptive since you're definitely dash jumping forward but not going far at all.

Nvm, I got it haha. Really sick stuff.
 
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Chiggaman23

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Oct 17, 2017
Messages
14
Ok first off, I have many questions. My first is, what would be a good pressure option for those above me on the platforms? Usually I go for SHFFL up airs, but that may be easily punished due to predictability. I want something to mix my options up. Leading to my next question, I must point out that one of my strong suits as a Falco player is pulling off the Bombsoldier (JC shine to up-b) consistently. Do you think this and down tilt are viable KO options? My prominent use of getting out of multi-hit moves is to use down tilt or shine to break out and start a ko setup or combo. I am also good at reading DI, baiting recoveries, and overall being defensive. But, my pressure options are lacking, I have work on multishining, waveshines, and shine grabs to do, and I struggle in some matchups that are particularly defensive themselves. (mostly Marth and Peach) So I ask, what are some tips on the matchups? I may have more questions, just hang on.
 

roboticphish

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Dec 19, 2013
Messages
54
Third Post: Fthrow vs Marth

I think there’s def something there, Fthrow seems better than I used to think actually. I played Macd’s Falco of all things with secondaries like Marth or Peach and he does a ton of Fthrow > approaching sh fair or something and he caught me a surprising amount of time, and trying to avoid it in the obvious ways like blowing your jump can be equally dangerous.

As of right now I generally still always Uthrow and haven’t experimented much with Fthrow but I’ll give it a try and report back what I find (one of my roommates is a good Marth player so I can test out things easily lol.)
I want to explore this a little bit more, and also look at fthrow in the ditto. I was sitting with 20xx and trying to figure out the optimal trees for the fthrow knockdown when you are close enough to the ledge that both characters get a reduced distance out of their tech to ledge, but far enough away from the ledge that they can't slideoff DI the throw. For reference, this length is somewhere between ~1/3rd and ~2/5th the distance of FD away from the ledge.

So in this position, I want to make Marth or Falco maximally suffer. This knockdown happens at roughly 45% on Falco, maybe a little earlier for Marth, so it's a great weight to set up a combo or knock them offstage with a strong move. The tree, as I have it figure out now, looks similar to this:

fthrow > walk forward to prepare for missed tech/tech in place

Tech in place -> D-tilt or Up-smash. I don't think it's possible to reach Falco with shine at that %, pivot up-tilt is the best option but too volatile for tournament conditions, and jumping after them to pop them up with a dair is too high-commitment and gives up the ability to react to the rolls. These two will launch the opponent barring godly downwards DI, but can be done at range in that case such that you're out of range of Falco's tech in place shine and can retreat from marth's tech in place grab. I'm not sure which option of the two is better; Falco's up-smash is laggier, but can be done out of a run in case they DI the Fthrow full away, whereas dtilt can be done out of a crouch, and thus is better able to cover tech roll in. Looking for input here, or potentially a better followup for this situation. It may be possible (and likely) that dtilt is better when they're closer to 45% than 90%, and up-smash only when getting that godlike ASDI down becomes near impossible. I considered dash attack, but it clanks with too much, can be ASDI'd down until much higher %s, and is ten frames laggier than dtilt to boot. So at the moment, these are the two in my tree.

Missed tech -> I think the above options will cover this before they're able to input anything, but it's possible there might be another, better option for either the low- or high-range %s. Walk up shine maybe? Regardless, below around 60% I think the best option is probably just to walk up and crouch to block against the getup attack, then react to the other three with the options below. Marth is invincible for longer if doing a getup-attack off his back, but both should be punishable with F-smash or run-up shine/shinegrab, right?

Tech roll to ledge -> Move towards and either f-smash or ftilt, depending on %. I think f-smash is better near the 45% range and t-tilt nearer to the 90% range, but I'm not sure exactly where the cutoff would be. Probably closer to 80% on Falco (60ish for Marth, maybe? I check it out with the old version of 20xx and I think the %s are different for marth. Might have to do more work), I'll start using ftilt. Couple of reasons for this. Fsmash will get them offstage at lower %s, whereas ftilt is more likely to be ASDI'd down and provide snap-to-ledge DI for Marth or instant dj recoveries with Falco. But at those higher %s, they're more ready to survival DI the f-smash and less ready to be holding down for the ftilt DI. Against Falco, that means you cover the instant dj and instant dj side-b, and with marth that should give you enough time to set up the faux-marth killer (rolling to the ledge like you're going to marth killer, and forcing out the option). I'm pretty sure about this one, the goal is to get them offstage and prepare for the edgeguard.

Tech roll towards stage -> this is actually where I'm most stuck. The intuition for me is to f-smash to punish the roll, since I can easily react to that after my tech in place/missed tech option. But that doesn't lead to anything from this position except to knock them away and reset neutral. Even at higher %s (90% and up), most opponents are DI'ing well enough to have a lot of recovery mixups from this position. But I also know that the opportunity to have Marth knocked down at this %s needs to be taken full advantage of, so I don't think regrab is the best solution.

If any of my fellow Falcomasters can take a look at this tree and help me figure out where I can shore it up, it'd be much appreciated. Thanks all.
 
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