PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[MrYaah]

maybe its just because I have long thumbs but I've always multishined on Y by not literally moving my thumb but having the tip of my thumb on the y and the base on the b and i just rock my thumb back and forth without really moving it much

 

[OninO]

Yeah my thumbs are definitely too short to do that comfortably

 

[RadiantHero_]

Hi, i'm new in smashboards.

I'm a n00b in Melee, though i've been playing it since 2001, but after I saw the pros in the game, I felt in love with it, so I want to main Falco and I don't know where to start. I hope people in this forum can help me to get better and better.

So, what's the first advice to a newbie Falco?

 

[FE_Hector]

R RadiantHero_ First off, welcome! Secondly:
- Learn immaculate control over your movement (especially wavedashes and wavelands)
- Perfect your laser game (don't rely on them too much)
- Get comfortable using Falco (sounds dumb but is super important)
- Work on followups/basic combo game.

 

[eideeiit]

Think. The single best thing to do with anyone is thinking.

 

[Bones0]

Hi, i'm new in smashboards.

I'm a n00b in Melee, though i've been playing it since 2001, but after I saw the pros in the game, I felt in love with it, so I want to main Falco and I don't know where to start. I hope people in this forum can help me to get better and better.

So, what's the first advice to a newbie Falco?

Go to a tournament and make some friends. After you surround yourself with other competitive players, improvement comes naturally.

 

[Darth Tobito]

What does Falco get out of waveshines? What situations should I do them and what are his follow ups?

 

[FE_Hector]

What does Falco get out of waveshines? What situations should I do them and what are his follow ups?

Theoretically, if your opponent hard DIs full to the other side of the stage, you wont be able to get a followup if you jump immediately. So, to give yourself time to react, you simply waveshine and then react accordingly. You can't waveshine like Fox can on Marth, but it's still useful to give yourself reaction time.

 

[GenNyan]

Theoretically, if your opponent hard DIs full to the other side of the stage, you wont be able to get a followup if you jump immediately. So, to give yourself time to react, you simply waveshine and then react accordingly. You can't waveshine like Fox can on Marth, but it's still useful to give yourself reaction time.

It also opens up more options when comboing floaties/semifloaties at mid percents. And waveshine OOS is killer because you can do anything afterwards.

 

[Klemes]

My shield pressure isn't working out. What i'm working on is mainly dair-shine-wavedash then rinse and repeat or try to catch him with WD in-shine. OR dair-shine-SH nair fade back. so it eats their shield till its ridiculously small but almost never pokes.
My opponents are not afraid of shielding in the least against me, everytime they'll wait for my pressure string to be over then jump on me with an aerial / grab since I'm not in the best position after that.

- I know nair is safer on shield than dair, but in my case that's not the problem for now, since they're doing nothing actually during the pressure but rather counter attack after I'm done.

Should I try to nair-shine-nair-shine over again right in their shield like PP used to do in 2011/2012 ?
Should I grab more often so they're not too confident to shield against me, and mixing shine-grabs in my pressure ?

 

[MewtwoForce]

Greetings fellow birdy players. After looking at some material i've had a radical change in my own philosophy of getting better and its doing wonders. This technology is so powerful that it took me from "Oh no I have to watch a 15 minute tutorial" to "Why is this book on getting good only 400 pages long. I want more!" When learning lifts you up from boredom into a fun activity thats when everything gets nuts.

Here is the vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4EwtuSuF1E

Incase its not understood by people who watch the vid i'll share the main take away I have. This doesn't cover everything in the vid. I'm just explaining what i'm excited about.

For awhile now I was hitting walls in smash. Training sessions were unfun tech grinds and unproductive sparring. Reaching out to learn new material felt like a chore. And the sheer idea of learning everything I needed to learn to finally just get good felt almost impossible and I didn't know where to begin.

I had a lack of genuine motivation. Partly because of certain limiting beliefs I had about learning that were holding me back. I had beliefs like "I can only get interested in certain subjects" Or "I can't make myself get more interested on purpose and maintain that. I'm bored with this material and i'm going to have to force myself to do this" Or "I can only learn so fast" or "Studying is hard"
Learning about how to learn fast is probably one of the best investments you can give yourself. Then everything you want to learn in life doesn't just feel approachable. It feels doable and something you really want to do.

The major breakthrough for me was this. The truth is you can quickly change your mind to become deeply interested in just about anything. Like in the next 40 seconds. The trick is to realize you have an inherent gift from birth as your birthright to summon from thin air a powerful curiosity and unending fascination with the things around you that only drives you to want to learn more and more. The vid better explains how to tap into that. Once you understand your brain can flip the switch easily you start thinking about the subject in a way that builds fascination. Then you're off. Your brain will go a million miles an hour and want to know the origin and design of everything in the universe. Its pretty cool.

PPMD has an interview in MIOM where he expresses that he never understood why people hit walls because he was always finding something interesting to think about and work on in the game. And thats when I remembered this video and it hit me. This quality of being totally fascinated with smash allowed him to keep finding things to improve on no matter what his level was. If you can weigh in on this PPMD i'd love to hear your thoughts.

This was my experience with the material and I hope it wasn't limited to just helping me. I hope you guys can manage to find that same fascination he talks about in the video. What worked for me was him dispelling the unhealthy mentalities on studying combined with when he starts giving example questions to build fascination and I used a similar line of questioning on subjects I wanted to learn. That just somehow made my mind get really interested. I felt I could learn fast and I was fascinated at the same time.

 

[Bones0]

My shield pressure isn't working out. What i'm working on is mainly dair-shine-wavedash then rinse and repeat or try to catch him with WD in-shine. OR dair-shine-SH nair fade back. so it eats their shield till its ridiculously small but almost never pokes.
My opponents are not afraid of shielding in the least against me, everytime they'll wait for my pressure string to be over then jump on me with an aerial / grab since I'm not in the best position after that.

- I know nair is safer on shield than dair, but in my case that's not the problem for now, since they're doing nothing actually during the pressure but rather counter attack after I'm done.

Should I try to nair-shine-nair-shine over again right in their shield like PP used to do in 2011/2012 ?
Should I grab more often so they're not too confident to shield against me, and mixing shine-grabs in my pressure ?

The goal of shield pressure is not to break shields. Why would someone be afraid of your shield pressure if they're not only staying safe, but actually getting free hits? Your pressure should, above all else, keep yourself safe if an opponent blocks an attack. Falco is the most fragile character in the game, so you cannot afford to play the type of game where you and your opponent each get openings on each other 50% of the time. It's more like you need to be getting 70% of the openings because basically every character KOs you sooner than vice versa.

Melee is not a traditional fighter, but the rock-paper-scissors dynamic between attack-block-grab is still prevalent. If they are blocking your attacks, you should be grabbing more. Obviously Falco has weak throw followups so this aspect of his RPS is less potent, but it's still useful to condition your opponent and you can occasionally get solid combos off of grabs. If you aren't getting much from grabs, you can at least position yourself so that when you do attack, they aren't guaranteed to be shielding. Delay your approach and only attack when you anticipate them doing an OoS option. If you hit someone right as they try to roll or jump OoS, they will think twice next time you make them shield. If they want to just sit in shield without you attacking them, their shield will disappear plenty fast, along with their options.

The other thing you should keep in mind is Falco is extremely good at punishing people in the corner. One of his biggest weaknesses in neutral is his ground speed, but when the opponent's cornered, they don't have room to outmaneuver you on the X-axis. If they roll in or try to go through you, you have good, quick attacks to deal with this. If they try to go over you, utilize Falco's amazing vertical mobility.

 

[Klemes]

The goal of shield pressure is not to break shields. Why would someone be afraid of your shield pressure if they're not only staying safe, but actually getting free hits? Your pressure should, above all else, keep yourself safe if an opponent blocks an attack. Falco is the most fragile character in the game, so you cannot afford to play the type of game where you and your opponent each get openings on each other 50% of the time. It's more like you need to be getting 70% of the openings because basically every character KOs you sooner than vice versa.

Melee is not a traditional fighter, but the rock-paper-scissors dynamic between attack-block-grab is still prevalent. If they are blocking your attacks, you should be grabbing more. Obviously Falco has weak throw followups so this aspect of his RPS is less potent, but it's still useful to condition your opponent and you can occasionally get solid combos off of grabs. If you aren't getting much from grabs, you can at least position yourself so that when you do attack, they aren't guaranteed to be shielding. Delay your approach and only attack when you anticipate them doing an OoS option. If you hit someone right as they try to roll or jump OoS, they will think twice next time you make them shield. If they want to just sit in shield without you attacking them, their shield will disappear plenty fast, along with their options.

The other thing you should keep in mind is Falco is extremely good at punishing people in the corner. One of his biggest weaknesses in neutral is his ground speed, but when the opponent's cornered, they don't have room to outmaneuver you on the X-axis. If they roll in or try to go through you, you have good, quick attacks to deal with this. If they try to go over you, utilize Falco's amazing vertical mobility.

Thanks a whole bunch !
Everything you said is pertinent and useful, but it's the thing about delaying attacks that I really needed to be reminded of. I recognized it a lot of times in mango's pressure for example. I understood what he was doing and why, but I never EVER did it myself for some reason... All I tried to do was to put them in the most shieldstun I could while exhausting myself on their shield.
I think I understand a little better now, like what PP said : no laser is just as threatening as laser spamming (which I thought to be stupidest thing ever not long ago).
Like always I was overlooking RPS dynamic. Everyday I play friendlies I realize I have the worst mental game of any one I ever played. Actually I'm so bad at it you could say I don't even have one, so the "better" players get free reads on me constantly and outplay me by a mile every single game.

 

[Bones0]

Thanks a whole bunch !
Everything you said is pertinent and useful, but it's the thing about delaying attacks that I really needed to be reminded of. I recognized it a lot of times in mango's pressure for example. I understood what he was doing and why, but I never EVER did it myself for some reason... All I tried to do was to put them in the most shieldstun I could while exhausting myself on their shield.
I think I understand a little better now, like what PP said : no laser is just as threatening as laser spamming (which I thought to be stupidest thing ever not long ago).
Like always I was overlooking RPS dynamic. Everyday I play friendlies I realize I have the worst mental game of any one I ever played. Actually I'm so bad at it you could say I don't even have one, so the "better" players get free reads on me constantly and outplay me by a mile every single game.

A mental game is something you develop, not something you're born with. Don't get frustrated, just keep working on being aware of what's going, like what things are working and what aren't, and what you can change that might give you a better edge.

 

[V_x_I_D]

Can some of you please give me tips on the falcon mathup? All toes down throw tech chases kill me. ):

 

[Kiusthugs]

I've just started playing melee and I'm deciding whether to put my time to main either fox or falco. between the two are two gripes that can be fixed later on. I can short hop with falco but not fox but fox is my best wavedashing character and I find falco wavedash to be slow and uncomfortable to me. though some say that wavedashing is not beneficial I tend to use it a lot in mind games if that counts. any one lift some ideas and reasons for me?

 

[Land0]

What does Falco get out of waveshines? What situations should I do them and what are his follow ups?

Another form of pressure, especially if you can force your opponent to shield. You can waveshine back and forth on their shield.

 

[Land0]

Can some of you please give me tips on the falcon mathup? All toes down throw tech chases kill me. ):

Uptilt destroys Falcon as well as locking him down with lasers. Also he can't really do too much if you land behind him so cross up aerials mess him up pretty bad.

 

[TeeJay308]

Falcon should be heavily in your favour. If you keep lasering him when he's on the ground and challenge his approaches with UTilts, BAirs and NAirs you should not even get hit all too much. Falcon can destroy Falco off of a grab if he's decent at tech-chasing. On the other hand, Falco can and should destroy Falcon off of a shine as well. Very volatile MU with a neutral game that's in your favour.

Once you do get grabbed, though, you just have to be unpredictable with your options and hope he messes up somewhere. Tech in place and buffer roll/sidestep (holding r/l and c-stick in desired direction causes your roll to come out as soon as possible FYI) works pretty well if they are a little late with their regrab. Especially sidestep shine is a useful thing to do once in a while, or consistently if they don't adapt lol. Also, sometimes you have to intentionally miss your tech. This will mess up their rhythm and catch them off guard. Just try to use as many options as possible to keep you from being predictable.

On another note, I was wondering if Falco's double shine is capable of beating rolls/spotdodges like Fox's double shine. Anyone here who knows? I can only punish my opponents roll if I read it as of now, I want a consistent answer to rolls lol.

 

[OninO]

Assuming the frame timing from this thread is right, then no roll can escape between the first two shines as long as they're not completely stale (i.e. you've only shined for the last 9 moves). I'm pretty sure all rolls are invincible frame 4. Try it in 20XX by setting a CPU to roll out of shield. You could do it in debug mode if you wanted to be extra sure you weren't just ****ing it up.

 

[GenNyan]

Can I have some tips on high percent kill setups vs fastfallers/semifloaties? My opponents keep living way too long, and I'm over relying on laser d-tilt which doesn't kill them until really late.

 

[RevySSB]

I think my biggest issue now is shining on platforms. This is something that has been bothering me for awhile, I want to know how you shine fast after you have jumped up on the platform. Its hard to explain but pro falco players do it all the time. I'm also having problems wavelanding when im under the platform

 

[`Rival]

Can I have some tips on high percent kill setups vs fastfallers/semifloaties? My opponents keep living way too long, and I'm over relying on laser d-tilt which doesn't kill them until really late.

at high percents i like to launch them off the stage with something like an ftilt, forward throw, maybe a stray aerial if i can and then put them in an edgeguard scenario. sometimes the edgeguard scenario is checkmate depending on how they di, and how youve conditioned them.

you can also kill them with any solid aerial in neutral if you have an idea of what they are going to do

 

[OninO]

There are lots of setups for mid-percent launchers. About 20% after the tech window opens for dair (something like from 60%-80%), dair will pop fast-fallers/mid floaties up if they miss the tech, they can then be F-smashed off stage and an edge-guard situation setup.

Up-throw->nair should work around this percent and will push them off (albeit high).

On true floaties (Peach/Puff) I'm pretty sure there's no real window where a missed tech on grounded dair will pop them up in a way that allows an f-smash. For these you can use jab F-smash at around 100%, or jab bair when higher. Laser f-smash on an aerial floaty feels nearly gauranteed and shouldn't be ignored (even though I'm pretty sure it's not legitimately safe).

You have to actively work on your edge guards to get mid-low percent kills with Falco. This means active use off edge invincibility, pressure off-stage with lasers, shine turn-arounds, shine-stall dairs, ledge hop dairs. Anything you can think of. Don't just sit on the stage and laser. In fact you should only fire one burst of lasers with the intention of stopping stall moves high (Marth side-b), and catching a stage height jump then you should immediately take ledge if they're below, or prepare to take ledge/cover high if they're above stage and close.

 

[RevySSB]

Guys how do i edgeguard marth

 

[Jim_P]

Marth is soo easy to edgeguard! A lot of people forget about the marthkiller..
Just laser while he's high to interrupt his side-b, then when he goes low setup the marthkiller by rolling to the edge -> hold lightshield (with Z) behind.
He now has 2 options:
-UpB on stage -> Easy punish by either bair or dair->dair.
-Super sweetspot the edge (which is ultra hard!).
If you see him getting these super sweetspot, just wd onto ledge.

When marth is not knocked off-stage too far away to make it back by just dj, mix up with bairs, ledgegrab, ftilt... whatever works! Be sure to bait his fair or nair

 

[Queso]

Having a problem approaching falcon.

I understand that neutral against falcon is more defensive, so pinning down falcon in his shield is a must. I don't really have a problem getting falcon's in their shields, it's how I attack afterwards that's difficult. At first I'd get him in a shield and then I'd try to nair/dair into shine/standard spacie pressure, or just nair shinegrab. This is super effective on newer falcons. But I was playing a falcon who's much better than I am, and whenever I got him in his shield, he stuffed my approaches.

So at first I'd get him in his shield, mix up my approach timing, and then shffl nair/dair him. But literally everytime I short hopped he'd nair or uair immediately, stuffing my approach. So, naturally, I started mixing up approaches harder. I tried to get him in his shield, run at him to make him think I was about to shffl approach, then WD backwards or dashdance around him to bait his nair/uair, but i kid you not when i say he litearlly would not do it unless i short hopped TOWARDS him. I tried empty hopping and that didn't work either. so i ended up just grabbing him more instead of shffling and getting like 30% follow ups, which is bad in that matchup. I asked him on how he had such a read on my shffl approaches, and he said "i'm jsut reacting to your short hop and nairing immediately"

So wtf do i do? i cant bait him because he won't budge, and he has the craziest reaction times so I cant really trick him by short hopping in place. i was thinking like maybe short hop towrads him, then dj backwards? or maybe sh waveland backwards? tips would be appreciated

 

[BRUJO~]

Having a problem approaching falcon.

I understand that neutral against falcon is more defensive, so pinning down falcon in his shield is a must. I don't really have a problem getting falcon's in their shields, it's how I attack afterwards that's difficult. At first I'd get him in a shield and then I'd try to nair/dair into shine/standard spacie pressure, or just nair shinegrab. This is super effective on newer falcons. But I was playing a falcon who's much better than I am, and whenever I got him in his shield, he stuffed my approaches.

So at first I'd get him in his shield, mix up my approach timing, and then shffl nair/dair him. But literally everytime I short hopped he'd nair or uair immediately, stuffing my approach. So, naturally, I started mixing up approaches harder. I tried to get him in his shield, run at him to make him think I was about to shffl approach, then WD backwards or dashdance around him to bait his nair/uair, but i kid you not when i say he litearlly would not do it unless i short hopped TOWARDS him. I tried empty hopping and that didn't work either. so i ended up just grabbing him more instead of shffling and getting like 30% follow ups, which is bad in that matchup. I asked him on how he had such a read on my shffl approaches, and he said "i'm jsut reacting to your short hop and nairing immediately"

So wtf do i do? i cant bait him because he won't budge, and he has the craziest reaction times so I cant really trick him by short hopping in place. i was thinking like maybe short hop towrads him, then dj backwards? or maybe sh waveland backwards? tips would be appreciated

Laser>shine, laser>grab, laser>jab, Laser>dtilt. If you fire the laser at the right time, you can catch him if he tries to jump out of shield, and if he doesn't jump you use the shield stun from the laser to shine/grab/jab/dtilt his shield. This way he doesnt have the time to react to your shorthop after you laser his shield, as he would if you did laser>dair>shine or laser>nair.

 

[RevySSB]

I dont know why but i dont shine as often as i should. I never get close enough and if i do i get grabbed.

 

[EZPZ]

Spotdodge Shine is broken. Use it if you are getting grabbed a lot.

 

[RevySSB]

Spotdodge Shine is broken. Use it if you are getting grabbed a lot.

Sorry what does "Spotdodge" shine mean?

 

[Jim_P]

Spotdoge aka sidestep (shield+down on controllstick) to evade attack/grab, then shine

To escape techchase, buffer by holding shield + down on c-stick)

 

[Klemes]

hey. i'd like all the advice i can get on how to NOT to get grabbed... i play against a good marth/sheik who follows the way of the m2k, he gets grabs on me very easily and kills me off of it like half the time.

my lasers and DD don't bother him that much, my offensive game is not too bad, like he needs a good read or a good bait to beat my approach. but when i'm on the defensive he always finds a way in. the one thing that works is AC bair spamming, so he retreats to a good position, beccause he's patient.

should i try to switch back to offensive more quickly and unpredictably ? am i missing something else ?

 

[EZPZ]

Mix up your timings on your approach. He is probably grabbing you because you are approaching the same ways/in the same rhythms repeatedly. Or if he's grabbing you every time you approach, again, spotdodge shine is hella good.

You could also just ask him why he is grabbing you so easily.

 

[OninO]

Yeah, your practise partner is not your adversary, they're your greatest ally, or should be. Ask them what behaviours they're cue'ing off to get grab reads on you all the time. It's probably as simple as: If you whiff an aerial when they're close enough you always shield, or something similar.

 

[Land0]

Does anyone have any tips for the Jigglypuff matchup? Is the key just being super patient and try to tack on damage with lasers?

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Does anyone have any tips for the Jigglypuff matchup? Is the key just being super patient and try to tack on damage with lasers?

I personally think it's mainly stopping her movement/reading her Jumps imo, Westballz vs Tekk or PP vs Hbox are really good sets to look at., jab at high percents can lead to any safe kill moves like Bair. (Sorry if my grammar is bad)

 

[Bones0]

Does anyone have any tips for the Jigglypuff matchup? Is the key just being super patient and try to tack on damage with lasers?

Lasers are useless for damage in 99% of scenarios. They are too risky. If you try to laser camp Puff for example, you'll rack up 20% (if you're lucky...) and then they'll finally get an opening like a pound or aerial with your back to the ledge and you die. Same goes for pretty much everyone.

Basics in the mu:
- Steamroll her if she's on the ground; dair covers her tech options well because her GUA has terrible invul frames and her other options have poor range/frames as well
- Combo with utilt instead of shine (or just dair her over and over, honestly)
- Laser to keep her on the ground or above your head; she tends to win exchanges if she's floating around in her SH height
- Laser her to keep her facing you (prevents bair spam)
- Once she's airborne, use utilt and AC bair to wall her out and stuff her approaches
- If she's really high up (especially when recovering), use your gdlk FH to catch her lazy moments; early dair KOs or riskless uair picks can be crucial
- Shield desperation pounds, but also make sure you aren't holding shield too long and letting them grab you

Most of that is offensive stuff, but defense is really where you win games. She's slow, so any time you're getting knocked down, make sure you're tech rolling away in situations where she's unable to followup. You also have to hit the DI on her uthrows, uairs, utilts, etc. to avoid easy rest setups. They'll also try to bthrow you off stage for gimps, and the mixups are rough so try to just avoid that scenario in general. Don't jump out of shield if she's throwing aerials near your dome.

 

[C-SAF]

- Laser her to keep her facing you (prevents bair spam)
.

I never thought of this affect from lasering. If puff fairs instead of bairs is there anything falco can do to really punish it? or is the advantage purely from decreasing her range?

 

[Pops1086]

Does anyone have advice on how to properly play the falco ditto? I'm not familiar with defensive opportunities or even how to properly deal with getting lasered. I know the punish game is similar to playing against fox, but is there anything unique to playing against another falco?