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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Equal

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Hi I'm new.

Quick question: From what I've read is it true that when using Falco you should use X/Y over an analog jump? I tend to use analog jump but I don't completely neglect the X/Y... I just want to know which one is more optimal so I can use it correctly! Thanks
 

Bones0

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Hi I'm new.

Quick question: From what I've read is it true that when using Falco you should use X/Y over an analog jump? I tend to use analog jump but I don't completely neglect the X/Y... I just want to know which one is more optimal so I can use it correctly! Thanks
Using Y will make your life a lot easier. Even great players who use tap jump admit that they wish they had started out using Y (I know Lovage said this before). I use tap jump for certain situations, but Y is pretty much better for the majority of the time. It frees up the stick do things like control your aerial drift or get the proper DI in a split-second reaction. It also tends to make controllers last longer, and if you ever have to switch controllers, it's way easier to get used to a new Y button than a new stick with tap jumping. Just use Y whenever you can, and if you use the stick for certain things where it doesn't impede your goal it's not a big deal.
 

dkuo

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i liked the amount of times pp nicked armada with rising aerials right when he set up float lol

good **** at evo
 

Dr Peepee

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bad stuff

I also don't think Armada gave me that many chances to "nick" him before but maybe I created them. Peach's float really isn't that fast so I'm not sure haha.
 

Roboturner

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Using Y will make your life a lot easier. Even great players who use tap jump admit that they wish they had started out using Y (I know Lovage said this before). I use tap jump for certain situations, but Y is pretty much better for the majority of the time. It frees up the stick do things like control your aerial drift or get the proper DI in a split-second reaction. It also tends to make controllers last longer, and if you ever have to switch controllers, it's way easier to get used to a new Y button than a new stick with tap jumping. Just use Y whenever you can, and if you use the stick for certain things where it doesn't impede your goal it's not a big deal.

I honestly didn't think anyone still used the control stick for jump, using the Y button just came naturally to me
 

Jim Morrison

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bad stuff

I also don't think Armada gave me that many chances to "nick" him before but maybe I created them. Peach's float really isn't that fast so I'm not sure haha.
So what was the difference in getting 0-3'd earlier with Falco into going 2-0 on him? Was it Armada playing worse than usual or were you especially on fire that match? Do you actually think Armada was playing worse than for example Apex 2013?
And while talking about what went wrong is nice, I'd also like to hear what you think you did really well in that set.
 

AvengerAngel

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Do you guys shield getup attacks on reaction? Or is it more a prediction thing? cause I suck at reacting to them and I usually get hit like a noob :x

Also I know it sounds like a "should I use Y/X to jump??" question, but I was wondering how do you guys perform ledge dashes. Do you drop from the ledge holding away or down? I'm finding it easier to flick the stick away and then airdodge to the ground as soon as possible
 

Xyzz

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Being a slow old man I tend to shield as a preemptive measure and try to grab as soon as I see any movement (sometimes catching neutral get up with that).
If you're low enough you can also try to just CC it.
 

Bones0

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Do you guys shield getup attacks on reaction? Or is it more a prediction thing? cause I suck at reacting to them and I usually get hit like a noob :x

Also I know it sounds like a "should I use Y/X to jump??" question, but I was wondering how do you guys perform ledge dashes. Do you drop from the ledge holding away or down? I'm finding it easier to flick the stick away and then airdodge to the ground as soon as possible
You can shield even the first hit on reaction. Just practice by dthrowing on FD vs. a level 4 computer. Make sure you don't guess though.

I use away to drop for ledgedashing, but I would try to get used to dropping with a down tilt motion first. If you can get used to tilting down and in to drop and then simply angling it higher for the WL you will probably be better off, but if you have to use away then you'll still be fine. I get it with good consistency and plenty of invincibility. Also, make sure you get in the habit of letting the stick reset to neutral before you try to drop. There's 7 frames of ledge grab lag, so this is the time when you should let your stick go to neutral because otherwise the game won't let you drop. Try up-Bing sideways into the stage and holding the stick towards the stage the whole time. If you roll it from that position to down, you won't drop. This is why a lot of people ledge jump by accident.
 

AvengerAngel

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Oh, I didn't know about that neutral thing when grabbing the ledge. This must be the reason why sometimes I mess it up and do a ledge jump instead. I'm somewhat still used to the 64 mechanics, in which you don't even get lag when you grab the ledge. When I'm in a hurry I don't wait enough and end up ledge jumping lol
Regarding the tech thing, I know about the CC stuff and I love it, but it still requires a correct prediction (same for putting up your shield). If they roll away instead, I might not be fast enough to punish them (perhaps I'm just too slow at WD'ing towards them when I see the roll, though).
I've tried practicing it on CPUs (even on level 9 CPUs, that almost always use the get-up attack, so I just have to react to it), but it didn't help much. I can easily punish characters like Puff (her get-up attacks suck lol), the Marios etc., but I'm having troubles with Falco/Falcon/Fox/Marf because they have good range and priority. If I'm dashing or dash dancing nearby, I can't put up the shield on time. Maybe it's also a problem of angling the shield automatically: I mean if I'm dash dancing and I shield, the shield will be somewhat angled and that might cause accidental shield stabs.
I don't know why it looks so difficult wtf D:
 

Bones0

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Oh, I didn't know about that neutral thing when grabbing the ledge. This must be the reason why sometimes I mess it up and do a ledge jump instead. I'm somewhat still used to the 64 mechanics, in which you don't even get lag when you grab the ledge. When I'm in a hurry I don't wait enough and end up ledge jumping lol
Regarding the tech thing, I know about the CC stuff and I love it, but it still requires a correct prediction (same for putting up your shield). If they roll away instead, I might not be fast enough to punish them (perhaps I'm just too slow at WD'ing towards them when I see the roll, though).
I've tried practicing it on CPUs (even on level 9 CPUs, that almost always use the get-up attack, so I just have to react to it), but it didn't help much. I can easily punish characters like Puff (her get-up attacks suck lol), the Marios etc., but I'm having troubles with Falco/Falcon/Fox/Marf because they have good range and priority. If I'm dashing or dash dancing nearby, I can't put up the shield on time. Maybe it's also a problem of angling the shield automatically: I mean if I'm dash dancing and I shield, the shield will be somewhat angled and that might cause accidental shield stabs.
I don't know why it looks so difficult wtf D:
New approach: Instead of shielding when they get up attack, pause right as they start up whatever animation they choose. After you pause, you can look at their animation to tell which option they picked. If they have started the animation and you still can't tell what they're doing, then the problem is you aren't reacting to the earlier frames of the attack. Try to pick certain details out of each GUA or roll animation so that you can easily tell when an action starts and which one is starting. If you still struggle after this, just go to Slo-mo Melee or Training Mode with reduced speed.

Also, range and priority should be irrelevant for this exercise. The only thing that affects how well you are able to react to tech decisions is speed. As long as you react to the GUA in time, it doesn't matter if it's Puff's stubby legs or Marth's huge sword because you'll be shielding.
 

AvengerAngel

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New approach: Instead of shielding when they get up attack, pause right as they start up whatever animation they choose. After you pause, you can look at their animation to tell which option they picked. If they have started the animation and you still can't tell what they're doing, then the problem is you aren't reacting to the earlier frames of the attack. Try to pick certain details out of each GUA or roll animation so that you can easily tell when an action starts and which one is starting. If you still struggle after this, just go to Slo-mo Melee or Training Mode with reduced speed.

Also, range and priority should be irrelevant for this exercise. The only thing that affects how well you are able to react to tech decisions is speed. As long as you react to the GUA in time, it doesn't matter if it's Puff's stubby legs or Marth's huge sword because you'll be shielding.
I remember reading something like that in a post by Magus (or was that KirbyKaze? I don't know). I've tried to watch out for details to help me, but I didn't try on Slow-mo. Perhaps it will help, thank you <33
Huh, the character thing was unrelated to the reaction time issue. I was just saying that punishing some characters' get-up attacks is incredibly easy. Against Puff you can just SH over her tiny feet and Dair **** her with incredible priority lolol. Against other characters' though, it's not that simple for me. Especially when it comes down to punishing their get-up attacks when they're laying on their back. The attack has more range in that case D:

do any of you guys get seriously annoyed trying to switch back to or between the two spacies or is that just me?

that goes away right?
I have no problems switching from Falco to Fox because I just need to be faster. Whenever I switch from Fox to Falco, though, it's kinda frustrating. I mess up lots of WD's, dash dancing etc. because Falco's jump is incredibly slow and awkward lol.
That might also depend on the fact that I don't main Fox so I'm more used to Falco's timings, I don't know. It's something that will eventually go away with practice, though. You can see Mango/Shiz/Zhu etc. switching from Fox to Falco and viceversa in tournament/friendlies without many troubles
 

Dr Peepee

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So what was the difference in getting 0-3'd earlier with Falco into going 2-0 on him? Was it Armada playing worse than usual or were you especially on fire that match? Do you actually think Armada was playing worse than for example Apex 2013?
And while talking about what went wrong is nice, I'd also like to hear what you think you did really well in that set.
I played far better at EVO(but still not happy with myself) and Armada was (a bit) worse. "Not having the fire" etc etc

I did a great job of forcing Armada to deal with my stage positioning instead of the other way around. He was fighting to get a stray hit from a bad position to convert into a punish instead of a strong one with stage positioning. I successfully fought from higher up and made Armada question his shield game decently well(should have grabbed a little more or pressured slightly better.)

I did a great job of landing grabs/shines/Dairs to damage early on so Armada couldn't kill me with CC.

I also didn't waste lasers and placed them all in useful areas. Areas which Armada was at or would be in or COULD be in.

Finally, I didn't waste DDs too much and most of my inputs had purpose. I threatened with each of my movement/laser inputs.


do any of you guys get seriously annoyed trying to switch back to or between the two spacies or is that just me?

that goes away right?
Well they don't really play the same but playing Fox to help keep your Falco tech great is something people used to say all of the time and not that terrible of an idea still imo.
 

Bones0

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do any of you guys get seriously annoyed trying to switch back to or between the two spacies or is that just me?

that goes away right?
It's probably because you view them as similar when they're completely different. If you try to relate everything between them then you end up playing sub-optimal versions of both of them in order to make them play in a more similar fashion.
 

BTmoney

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It's probably because you view them as similar when they're completely different. If you try to relate everything between them then you end up playing sub-optimal versions of both of them in order to make them play in a more similar fashion.
QFT man...and it's hard since I know way more about Fox than I do Falco. But I'm better at Falco so I play him like Fox and it's annoying lol.


edit:

At what percent does dair make Fox need to tech and how should that explicitly change your combo game?
 

Dr Peepee

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Somewhere around 36-38 depending on staling and such things.

Dair becomes a mixup at that point and shine leads into Utilt/shine/Fsmash/Nair instead of Dair(outside of any moment you feel like doing Shiz combos.) Nair into Dsmash is a great combo from this point if you're by the edge because then you can send Fox offstage at a bad angle for him and kill him much easier since he can't really side B to the edge(or only side b to the edge if he can side B at all.) The rest of the punishment options are based on stage and conditioning. Push Fox up if he wants to hold in/is toward the middle of a bigger stage. Fsmash if he wants to hold out as a mixup/you want to set up an edgeguard attempt(on smaller stages this is easier.)
 

Vixen

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Pp when I dair after I shine characters, they can shield.

When I watch other players doing the same timing for dair shine their opponent ends up in that awkward stun animation. Know what im doing wrong? My punishment game is super crappy vs non floaters and could uwe some advice

Sent from my SPH-L300 using Tapatalk 2
 

Dr Peepee

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If you Dair them when they're out of stun they just hit the ground and shield. The idea is to hit them earlier than you would if you're trying to shield pressure(that has to be pretty delayed.) It feels awkward at first but play with the timing. Way too early and they will come out of Dair stun. Way too late and they exit shine stun. There's a lot of area in between so just practice it. I could test it fine on computers honestly since it works about the same on them.
 

Vixen

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Ah theres my pgoblem. I dont really get to practice tho.

Ill keep your advice in mind and see if I can apply it when I go to smashfests.

Sent from my SPH-L300 using Tapatalk 2
 

Vixen

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best stages to ban are DL/PS. Take him to YS/FOD/FD. BF is player preference. You win in neutral.

You kept swinging with heymakers in neutral. You also aerial too early. These both got you punished a LOT.

Vs Falcon, it's all about controlling neutral, and pushing his space. No need to push hard vs him at all as with lasers, and well placed aerials are enough to completely shut down nearly all of his options, and you have the time to react to most of what he tries.
 

Iron Dragon

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Oh my god I was just writing out a big response/critique for you Meta then I accidentally closed out the tab *sigh*. Oh well lets try this again, and next time I should save my work halfway through. Still just depressing/annoying.

Please note ahead of time that I'm a scrubby pos Falco and you have absolutely no reason to listen to me.

GAME 1

-Laser more. You don't laser enough in general, you seem to only use it to try and start your offense, which is fine, but it's not all lasers are intended for/used best for. Lasers are Falcos primary tool/option of shutting down Falcon's game. Lasers make Falcon come to YOU, which is how you want this matchup to be. Because Falcon will be forced to come at you, and he will be forced to suck when he comes to you (because he's Falcon and he sucks etc). Use lasers to control Falcon on stage, and when he tries to jump over them or do an aerial, chances are he's going to space it in a way that is actually not good for any situation EXCEPT beating lasers. He can often times then be beat out by stuffing his approaches with your own nairs, well timed bairs, and I'd say to do this one a lot less, but utilt as well.

-Grab him more. Your way of opening him up is too one dimensional. You're relying a lot on stray hits to shine, which can work, but you need more. The times you jabbed on his shield you could have grabbed him instead, when they start adapting to you grabbing, they'll often times go to things like stomp OOS on the grab attempt to make you whiff it and stomp hits. Thats when you start running in and nairing to stuff his stomp, and so on. Shine grabs also work. Since you need to add grabs into your game, use the times that you blankly sit there in shine (see below) as a place to grab after.

-Edge guard a lot better/use better edge pressure. You didn't really use many bairs except for your attempt on stock one, which could have actually been done you just needed to grab the edge faster. In general I think it goes something like stand on stage if hes REALLY far out, and grab the edge and re-grab a couple times for invincibility if hes close to force him to airdodge on if at all possible. Any time you can force Falcon to air dodge on is good because his air dodge is a POS. Also use better edge pressure. PP is the best example you can find of good, patient edge pressure vs Falcon. DDing around and shooting lasers while also going for safe angled ftilts when Falcon has the edge is really good.

Here's a good quick example of how to edge guard Falcon well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1P9s2sWI6U#t=1m11s
Watch it until about 1:35 or so.

-Don't commit to the raw dsmashes and raw smashes on Falcon's shield in general really. Every raw dsmash you did on his shield here he punished. EJ grabbed on one, and kneed on another. Keep this in mind because 2-3 raw knees and Falco is in killing percent by Falcon. That's pretty scary. The raw fsmash on his shield also got you grabbed etc.

-Mix up your recovery more. Too many times you went low -> firebird. Firebird as a whole isn't awful, but if you keep doing it they'll catch on. Go low and they can just edge hog, go high when you're out there and they can just go out and hit you or go for knee as you go high and land on stage. Remember that illusion is very good, some players have just skewed its name (I'm looking at you DaShizWiz), but that if you do it to the edge the most Falcon can do is predict it and edge hog or go for a well timed up tilt. Both things are fairly difficult to pull off, a lot more so than hitting firebird at least. Falco's recovery is a little one dimensional and Falco's worst matchup is Falco off stage (shouts to Taj for that joke).

-Do something from the shines when you just sit there. I understand if you don't have the dexterity to maybe do an aerial again or try a laser or something, but the times you go in and do aerial -> shine and you just sit there (maybe you're expecting the shine to hit? idk) you need to do something. Anything. Jump. Roll. Even if those things get you hit, it's better than sitting there and giving him a free grab.

GAME 2

-Don't use up airs in combos so much, they can smash DI or just regular DI (I don't recall which it is lol) the 2nd hit and make it not all connect, so unless you're trying to do some Zhu type stuff, stick to whats guaranteed. Pillar combos work for quite awhile and can then lead to nair things. See: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj8ro3oLLtk#t=1m2s

And before anyone asks, yes I do love linking that LOL.

-You're trying to use bair to edge guard a little more, which is good. Just work at it. As much as everyone says it's really easy to edge guard Falcon's recovery, it can be tricky if you're not used to it. Give it some time and keep trying and you'll get better at it.
-Don't EVER do waveshine pressure. It is extremely unsafe and I don't know why he didn't punish it. He could shield grab, stomp OOS, or even just buffer roll and get away if he was that worried. But the point is that you shouldn't do waveshine pressure right in front of their shield like that. Almost every character in the game can punish it. This also goes along with what I said about sitting in shine, in the time of doing all these shines here, why not just shine grab instead? Falcon doesn't really have a good answer to it.

-Don't focus too much on hard reads like you did when you came down on your 3rd stock. Yeah you got the read on the roll and hit with fsmash, but it wasn't the optimal decision. As much as things like that look cool or you want to show your opponent that you're in their head, it just doesn't really work. Mango charging the up smash vs Hungrybox was cool and all but it wasn't optimal.

-Have more patience on reading Falcon on tech/wake up. Usually when you hit him somewhere you can just stand in place and laser and have those hit on neutral/away tech, and if he techs in you can land and shine in time to catch him. Everything is about exerting control over Falcon because he is a purely momentum based character. His neutral game is just flat out not as good as other top characters and he is very limited. Show him why. You might be able to go for dsmash like you did but if you're going to do that have more patience as said and don't just throw it out hoping it will hit.

Okay I'll put more tomorrow if you want LOL but this is what I have for now. I have a bit more of Game 2 still I think and Game 3 as well. Just tell me if you want it or not though.
 

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Double post to say that after seeing how big a wall of text I just wrote, I probably need to make my thoughts more concise.
 

ArcNatural

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Sup guys,

PP I have to say I loved your matches vs Armada but your match with Wobbles left me scratching my head. A lot of this goes to props to Wobbles cause that man was ridiculously on point until he ran into Mango.

But I wanted to throw a couple of concepts at you to get your input.

When you were within wavedash (ideally it would be if you wavedashed towards them you could hit them with shine, that spacing) range of Icies while they were shielding, why did you never fade away dair? Mixing this up between fast falling and not FFing is very difficult for Icies to punish unless they luckily clang with dair. But with the 10 frames of lag before they can input a move makes the timing pretty difficult for them. I found this forces them to be way more careful with wavedash approaches.

Also at that range I'm not afraid to simply wait and shine/attack on reaction if they approach. I'm probably oversimplifying this, but I've always thought if you force Icies to shield where they have to wavedash to reach you, as long as you're around the middle of their wavedash length you're basically untouchable if you can react fast enough. I felt a lot of times you would play with the max range of the Icies' wavedash and I don't think that's the best spacing against them. What do you think?
 

Dr Peepee

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First comment: SIGHHHHHH

Second comment: Yeah my original plan was to space Dair/Bair/sometimes Fsmash on their shields because they can't do anything. It's kinda like Samus where they can only WD OOS backward to deal with what I'm doing so I just need to either catch them coming OOS to get me or force them by/to the edge then kill them. I don't understand the point of mixing the FF and not FF though? Is the idea simply to make them guess about when they could WD OOS to punish me?

I do not want ICs to WD into me because then they could get stage. Cutting off WD into me by spacing on their shield seems pretty good. Perhaps an IC could WD OOS and hit me when I'm spacing a move but I'm much more likely to just hit them instead(Dair/Bair and Fsmash are all fairly fast and don't worry much about CC) unless they read me very well.
 

ArcNatural

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Yes the mixing between FF and non FF is to make it so they can't time their wavedash properly. The spacing on it is pretty important. You don't want to be far enough so that when they wavedash they will be able to shield/jab/etc. 10 frames is an unrealistic reaction time though I think it works even pre-emptively as they simply can't do anything about it (especially since the hitbox is moving away from them, think Marth retreating grounded fair) making the timing for them to punish very difficult, even if they wavedash and don't get hit you should be able to shine/jab/dtilt/general avoidance/etc.

I get your wavedash into you concept. But isn't that exactly what I'm preventing? Unless you mean you just don't want them to try to approach at all which I think is impossible (every good Icie will approach for openings).
 

Dr Peepee

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I'd just delay more if I spaced closer to them, adding a further layer of depth since I'm including more responses for them to be concerned with. Maybe you meant that though. Any particularly good WD stuffer you can think of? I wouldn't want to be grounded vs ICs WD tbh unless their percent was high enough for me to Dtilt/maybe Ftilt. Fsmash is too slow probly.

Being able to play a grounded game with ICs is very preferable to me. I'd like to not FH away or even WD away if I could help it but I'd be willing to experiment with this vs them. I can't really visualize how quickly they can come and get me and my responses to them. ICs are weird lol.

And I guess generally they won't approach with your method either. I suppose I was just saying the same thing as you haha.
 

ArcNatural

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I think sh fade away dairs are a great wd stuffer against ice climbers for its drawn out hitbox, which is why I brought it up. For grounded I don't think Falco has great options because missing can have pretty severe consequences other than the known safe options (like the fsmash situation). I would consider shine/fthrow/dtilt/ftilt as my main options grounded, and they all have decent risks compared to aerials in this matchup. I don't like uptilt to stuff grounded approaches with Falco due to how nana can desync and or they can just CC and still get you sometimes.
 

Dr Peepee

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Well I should have been more clear. My issue is if/when the ICs WD OOS towards you after spacing the Dair initially. I don't think you would have time to SH Dair immediately before jab/Dsmash from ICs connects.
 

ArcNatural

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That would have to be for you to test. I feel that as long as your spacing is right (basically they can't wavedash in and shield as your aerial is already out and your rising sh dairing away from them) you should still have at the least somewhat of an equal frame advantage. If they full wavedash they would be basically on top of you or passing through you and you can shine. If they start adjusting their wavedash spacings to properly stay in front of you so you can't shine that would be an impressive adjustment that you would have to adjust to accordingly.

I just HATE the idea of baiting their wavedashes at max range. Cause even if that's what you're baiting you still give them their comfortable spacing/timing of wavedash jabbing/dsmashing/buffer roll/grab/etc. setups.

You might want to hit me up on aim if you want to debate the finer points, I just think it's worth taking a look at.
 

Dr Peepee

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Yeah I'd never try to do that at max range. My apex 2012 set with wobbles I always hit him trying to WD when he was close usually so that's what I would certainly stick to again. This mixup is really cool though. We could discuss it for sure, but either way thanks for throwing it out there sir. =)
 

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#MangoNation
Double post to say that after seeing how big a wall of text I just wrote, I probably need to make my thoughts more concise.
God, I love you LOL

Well, that was the first time I played a Falcon THAT good, he even beat the best marth here. But yeah, I think my main problem is ''trying to play like mango/pp'' just going hard with shield pressure at all (What I cant do too well atm) Thanks a lot, I will start seeig how Falcon gets back at all, I also know his recovery is awful I just idk how he got back everytime lol
 

Iron Dragon

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
Messages
1,239
Location
Arizona
God, I love you LOL

Well, that was the first time I played a Falcon THAT good, he even beat the best marth here. But yeah, I think my main problem is ''trying to play like mango/pp'' just going hard with shield pressure at all (What I cant do too well atm) Thanks a lot, I will start seeig how Falcon gets back at all, I also know his recovery is awful I just idk how he got back everytime lol

I'm going to sound hella biased here, but I would highly recommend watching PP instead of Mango if you're attempting to learn most matchups as Falco and you're trying to learn from some high level player. PP is super good at Falcon (most days anyways lol) and he plays probably the most fundamentally sound Falco I've ever seen. I would advise that even if you do end up adopting a different style of Falco later that to start you learn by watching PP (and reading the things he says).

And on that note about the Falcon thats pretty fair, Falcon can be weird like any matchup if you don't know it. Just because you win something doesn't mean it's 100-0 haha so yeah Falcon can definitely put the hurt on you.
 
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