PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Strong Badam]

this is like 10 pages late, but no, i meant that staling doesnt effect the shieldstun, since it uses the base damage of the move

i dont have any backing except that sypherpheonix said it and hes never been wrong about anything technical...

just test it, it shouldnt me that hard, i would, but im lazy and trust him... although now thinking about, i do feel like ur right... maybe i misuderstood what he was saying

shieldstun formula uses staled damage
hitting a shield does not stale a move, however.

You can't airdodge out of tumble and your aerial mobility is different I think(not sure if higher or lower horizontally).

only the first is true

 

[Bones0]

kevin

when can we start writing?

Whenever you want.

 

[Dr Peepee]

kevin

when can we start writing?

I have time Saturday and maybe Sunday. Not sure which day is better just hit me up when you're good/a little before you're good on those days.

 

[flaw]

Newb here. Multiple Sheiks I've played like to avoid lasers by full hopping and charging needle to cover approaches, then safely land behind the shower of needles. It looks really obviously bad on FD especially, yet still I find it catching me out a lot. Any thoughts?

 

[red stone]

Newb here. Multiple Shieks I've played like to avoid lasers by full hopping and charging needle to cover approaches, then safely land behind the shower of needles. It looks really obviously bad on FD especially, yet still I find it catching me out a lot. Any thoughts?

run forward under the needles, then punish. then mix it up by going above every now and then and punish with an aerial.

if you roll backwards, sheik might catch you on the roll and get a throw. same with rolling forwards. The longer you stay in the air, the more likely you are to get caught by them. I would say stay grounded somewhat longer than normal if you know then have a full charge.

 

[flaw]

More specifically, sheik is throwing the needles before reaching the ground so she gets the angled needles and autocanceled landing. Getting under works great, yeah, utilt as she falls or uair as she is rising, but I find it's when I try to get under that I get hit by the needles. I've tried full or double-jumping over them but it's tough to pull off unless I hard read it. Maybe this works though and I'm doing it wrong.

The most success I've had is just lasering them as they fall or predicting it and djdl, though if my laser is canceled by the needle or I'm too far away Sheik just jumps again. Am I giving Sheik too much space? I'm sorta playing like I would play a campy marth and trying to bait stuff like ftilts with dd -> laser -> dd etc

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

No you will run into sheiks that use that strategy now and then. In order to beat it you have to understand it.

Sheik has to charge needles in order for them to lead to anything. If he is doing fullhop with a falling needle, you can sh over the needle angle and nair/dair before he can shield.

A bit more annoying is sh needles on a platform. Because of how quick it is, it can be hard to get under him and because he's on the platform its hard to quickly approach him. You can find the timing between the needles and go below him, or you can take the top platform and pressure. Fullhopping to the top platform at the correct timing will force sheik to shield or run due to the threat of your sh dair. You're now in the advantage and have the ability to chase and lock down.

 

[flaw]

Ok so it is possible to sh nair over it, I just have to find the timing/spacing. cool

Yeah the run off platform needles are annoying, too, but I haven't played a shiek fast enough to beat my sh uair at the edge before needles come out. When I do, I'll keep your top platform idea in mind, thanks

 

[Bones0]

Or you could just laser them.

 

[ruhtraeel]

how do I get better at the defensive and to a certain extent the neutral position

I've been trying not to rely on lasers as much and trying to space DD's

but whenever I get put on defence I just start messing up techs, DI's tech skill in general etc, and also I do stupid stuff like jump into a Ganon jab near the edge of the screen

 

[Bl@ckChris]

ganon jabs are hard to miss sometimes.

it's very fun when falco smacks into the brick wall.

it mostly happens when falco tries to reset or force a situation with an approaching laser that he doesn't have space for.

 

[Bones0]

Ganon is so good at zoning out approaches. It's one of the least favorite matchups I've played.

 

[mers]

Ugh I know. I thought I loved the matchup, but once I played a really good defensive Ganon I changed my mind. His moves are so ****ing big.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Then don't approach.

 

[Bones0]

Not approaching means you are near the ledge, which means you just get zoned harder. You'll land a few lasers while he works his way over to you, but then they'll just poke you with a single ftilt/uair and you're dead. The only way I can play the matchup is to keep Ganon in hitstun or off stage all game (luckily, this is a pretty viable strategy).

 

[ShroudedOne]

I think you can be defensive without having to give up stage.

 

[Bones0]

Maybe that would work well if you have them trapped at the ledge so you can simply anticipate their limited options, but if you're both in a truly neutral position, you can't really stop anything Ganon does. You have to avoid it. If he uses fair/uair/ftilt/jab, a trade is almost always going to be extremely beneficial to him, and shielding is usually horrible vs. those options as well (especially fair). Other than that, there's no way to just outright beat the moves unless you are going to hit him before they come out, but at that point you're not playing defensively anymore.

 

[Xyzz]

Can't you laser pretty much everything he tries to put towards you (if in doubt doing a reverse one out of a dash jump), and then reclaim the bit you've given up, because well, there's a laser in it? :D

I've always felt that lots of lasers shut down Ganon really hard, because he's pretty slow and doesn't have a great way to get over them (and I really like him being above me, when playing Falco :D)

 

[iRobinhoood]

Never posted here before, Falco not really one of my favs. But you guys should really approach with floats more often.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP8dPLhByJE&feature=player_detailpage#t=174s

 

[Stevo]

Can't you laser pretty much everything he tries to put towards you (if in doubt doing a reverse one out of a dash jump), and then reclaim the bit you've given up, because well, there's a laser in it? :D

I've always felt that lots of lasers shut down Ganon really hard, because he's pretty slow and doesn't have a great way to get over them (and I really like him being above me, when playing Falco :D)

Platforms can be very useful for Ganon in those situations.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Falco can be defensive while keeping stage. He makes Ganon jump(onto a platform) to avoid lasers so he can keep the middle. Works similarly vs most characters.

 

[Dr Peepee]

im playin smash

http://www.twitch.tv/m4h0n3

 

[Mahone]

nvm no stream, im ********

 

[ChivalRuse]

Ugh. Ganon's another one of those characters that you have to play safe against and just laser until he does something dumb. It's a pain.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It only requires a little more patience than Falco's other matchups because of the lengths Ganon will go to when avoiding you. Just remember he wants you to be impatient and the extra second or two it takes to get a hit/commitment on him is not a big deal.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I just hate it when a character can slow down the pace of the match. But yea I guess I can deal with it .

Edit: The same concept applies to peach. I don't like how some characters only need one read to gain an upper hand in a stock.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It may be possible to overcome that with relative safely sometimes, but not always.

Just depends on how much of a risk you want to take.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I don't like to take risks haha.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

you can only laser so long before we hit you with a fair.

and by so long, i really mean forever because wtf ganon's *** huehuehuehuehue

but yeah just don't get hit cuz u don't really have to. but running away forever won't really work either.

 

[dkuo]

Do Ganons regularly jab/ftilt Falcos out of laser approaches? I just feel like that would be a hilarious thing to do against bad (or in this case high) laser approaches but idk how practical it is.

Chival just learn from Wenbo on how to do relentless approaches or something

 

[Wenbobular]

What .... I don't .... understand ....

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

As marth i started eating laser -> fsmash to make falcos think twice about laser->dair approaches. A few ganons I know will eat laser -> ftilt/jab, but its not that good; i just laser a handful of times in place if they start doing it.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

holy **** i need to go to md/va and show these guys how i function.

KEVIN LETS GO THEY CAN'T FIGHT GANON

 

[Bones0]

As marth i started eating laser -> fsmash

Ewww, don't fsmash like that unless maybe if they're near KO %, but even then... Just utilt. It's insanely good in those situations.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Nah, fsmash is actually fairly good. If they laser instead, you're just gonna eat that laser and thus not have the lag. Obviously if you're too obvious about it they will just laser->wait->whatever, but if you choose to not fsmash and they do that your goal is accomplished anyways (ei, make them think twice before following the laser with a sh nair/dair approach).

Why I definitely prefer fsmash over utilt is the range. Plus tipped fsmash kills falco at 0%.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

imagining tipped fsmash on falcos who like to land from laser into dash dance makes me chuckle. they think they're baiting the utilt when really they're catching a tipper right to the back of the neck.

glorious.

 

[KirbyKaze]

My reaction to the last page of posting or so.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

This weekend I learned that there are a few subtleties to DI-ing in falco dittos that I never noticed until Wes pointed them out to me. This makes me question whether there are many more subtle DI tricks that I've been missing out on. Idk how I'm supposed to notice these tiny little things lol

 

[Divinokage]

The devil is in the little details.

 

[unknown522]

My reaction to the last page of posting or so.

IKR?