PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[ShroudedOne]

The matchup I play the most as Peach is indeed Falco. I find it slightly more aggravating to deal with his shenanigans when he's slowing the match down, not me.

 

[FoxLisk]

when someone's respawning with invuln my general plan is to try to run away but accept that i might have to take to platforms and then try to fight to come down. it's better to spend a while in a risky position around the platforms than to get cornered in shield or some ****.

 

[samizdat]

Learning to space in Melee is like learning to type. When you first start out, being able to combine all the different options is insane, especially when you are trying to take into consideration the correct spelling and punctuation. Then you move on to grammar, and before you know it you're typing essays where you are more concerned with the subject you are discussing than with your ability to actually perform the typing necessary to create it in the first place. But no matter how adept you get at the writing, you'll always still have that fear of making small typos which can distract you from the bigger picture.

Or maybe I just love making random analogies that are so vague they could apply to anything. I can't quite tell.

Wow, that's brilliant!

How about it? Whenever you become worried over a certain matchup, you simply take a seat in front of the keyboard, pop open your preferred word processor, and proceed to write a free-flowing essay on that matchup evaluating all the key scenarios (spacing, recovering, approaching, etc.) against that character, and by the time you've finished, you'll have thoroughly organized your thoughts into a total gameplan!

Besides the suspicious resemblance to schoolwork, the usefulness of this actually doesn't sound all that far-fetched.

 

[Vaccine]

Thank You, to all the ppl that gave me advice.

 

[Druggedfox]

I'm pretty sure you just love making random analogies... >_>

That's not to say they're not good =P

 

[silentSWAG]

thats what i like to do when im bored

 

[Bones0]

My love for making random analogies is like my obsession with doing random tech skill ****.

I either come off really cool or embarrass myself trying.

 

[JPOBS]

my plan when they are invicinble is to run straight through them.

 

[silentSWAG]

yea what is the best things to do when your other player is responding

 

[JPOBS]

running straight through them is totally legit. Everyone expects that their opponent is gonna run away or shield or do something defensive. If you do the exact opposite of what they expect, you can get away with it really easily.

just try it.

 

[Druggedfox]

I run through them 90% of the time... seriously >_> Okay, maybe not quite that much... but its amazing definitely unless their character is slow and you can legitimately just run. You always feel dumb when they just hit you for it though =P

 

[mers]

Running through them seriously works great. Also, around once every match or two, I'll spam buffered rolls back and forth. It is WAY underrated.

 

[Bones0]

Running through them seriously works great. Also, around once every match or two, I'll spam buffered rolls back and forth. It is WAY underrated.

WTF? That would never work.

 

[silentSWAG]

i seen people light sheild on platforms, and wait to get hit then put out a bair off the platform

 

[Kason Birdman]

my plan when they are invincible is to freak out and constantly roll back and forth like I always do.



gonna have to change that.

 

[Metal Reeper]

I play Marth so I can just Fsmash when I spawn and hit something :D

 

[Rubyiris]

Stuff from last weeks tourney:

vs Forward:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWl67TXAMBA&feature=feedu

vs Nicknyte:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leGAfo4Tn88&feature=feedu

chokesies vs forward.

Sooooo... Anyone want to hop on this?

 

[Strong Badam]

I do lots of different things when they're invincible. Keep 'em guessing IMO

 

[Vaccine]

how do u buffer a roll? i keep getting laser -> grabbed and shine grabbed in falco dittos or nair shined by fox

idk how to approach marth. idk if i should? i usually approach just cause i feel bad laserring all day. when i do approach its usually with an early nair or laser -> something. the guy i play against likes to cc my early nair and then grab me. he will also shield it and depending on the on how i time/space my nair either shield grab or wd -> fsmash after i shine. im not sure what i can do about marths wd oos -> fsmash? i tried laserring after i shined a few times and got tipped. also i have a problem with getting hit by marths dash attack. i usually try to laser or out run it. i think i do that cause i dont c it coming. whenever i try to predict it it doesnt go so well . i think my biggest problem in this mu is that early nair and for whatever reason i feel like i have to approach marth!

what should i do when i get a grab on falcon?

also i tried running through my opponent when he had invincibility frames. i worked most to the time =) so thanks again for the advice.

 

[ShroudedOne]

You C-stick to the left or right while in shield to buffer a roll.

 

[Pi]

what do you think about getting mad, or salty, when you lose a match/set?
especially vs. someone who you think you could have beat, or when you lose due to something you could have prevented, or picked up on and should have been punishing or something

i know some people get really mad vs. some others who don't get mad, much at all.

but do you think that w/ the proper mindset getting mad is almost a staple to losing a match?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Mindset is everything in terms of learning. Negative attitudes are like poison to the mind.

 

[Kason Birdman]

Yeah I agree with sveet.
Getting salty/mad is definitely a weakness in many, including myself.

 

[Druggedfox]

I wouldn't put it so black/white; depending on how you get mad at the situation, it's pretty essential that you get mad imo. What kind of player who has a serious drive to be really good could just come off a loss and not feel some sort of emotion along those lines? Getting mad is important, it shows you care and that the match/loss meant something to you.

You shouldn't let the loss negatively affect you, of course. You also shouldn't sit there johning or pretending to yourself that you "should have won" among other things. I totally agree that with the proper mindset, getting mad is a staple to losing a match. You need to be able to keep a cool head, and have overall good control of your emotions...but that doesn't mean you can't be salty about losing >_>

 

[Bones0]

how do u buffer a roll? i keep getting laser -> grabbed and shine grabbed in falco dittos or nair shined by fox

idk how to approach marth. idk if i should? i usually approach just cause i feel bad laserring all day. when i do approach its usually with an early nair or laser -> something. the guy i play against likes to cc my early nair and then grab me. he will also shield it and depending on the on how i time/space my nair either shield grab or wd -> fsmash after i shine. im not sure what i can do about marths wd oos -> fsmash? i tried laserring after i shined a few times and got tipped. also i have a problem with getting hit by marths dash attack. i usually try to laser or out run it. i think i do that cause i dont c it coming. whenever i try to predict it it doesnt go so well . i think my biggest problem in this mu is that early nair and for whatever reason i feel like i have to approach marth!

what should i do when i get a grab on falcon?

also i tried running through my opponent when he had invincibility frames. i worked most to the time =) so thanks again for the advice.

You can't outcamp Marth (though you shouldn't feel bad about lasering any more than Marth should feel bad when his grab reaches an entire platform length or he dthrow gimps you at 0). It usually seems like a good idea because they'll get hit by 4-5 lasers in a row, but then once he finally makes his way through them and touches you, you get comboed to no end. You'll actually want to spend the majority of the matchup approaching, or at least close enough that it feels like you are on top of him all game. The less room Marth has to work with, the more he has to commit to individual moves. If you are trying to stay outside his fsmash range, it gives Marth plenty of space to use fairs to keep you out while still leaving opportunities for him to rush in with a fair when he feels it's safe or rush in for a grab if he gets close enough and you shield. If you're constantly inside his tipper range, he can't throw out random fairs because you can shield grab them, or hit him out of lag while he's still in the air.

If Marth is CC'ing, just dair instead of nair, and in general you don't want to aerial early because if he shields it you'll get grabbed. The two big things you need to focus on defensively in the matchup are not getting grabbed and not getting tipped. Delay aerials and don't miss shines. You really should just never be getting grabbed if you're approaching.

WD fsmash can be difficult to deal with. Your best tool against it is first realizing when they will do it. Marth's only two OoS options if you're pressuring correctly are roll and WD OoS. Whenever you expect them to move OoS, just SHL out of your shine as fast as possible. I'm not sure of the frame data, but I'm pretty sure that they can't hit you if you do it properly. You can also just WD out of your shine to avoid the fsmash and follow up that way, but it's kinda risky because you can't tell how far they will WD and you can easily get tipped this way.

Dash attack is a similar issue to being in fair/fsmash tipper range. Try to avoid general situations where you are even far enough away from them to consider a dash attack. If you do end up in that spacing, laser low for dash attack and high for SHFFL attempts. If you misplace a laser or do one at a good distance for him to dash attack after, just rush right into him with a dair. Aerials go right over dash attack and gives you a free hit.

I detail a lot of stuff for Falco vs. Marth in this thread.

 

[JPOBS]

what do you think about getting mad, or salty, when you lose a match/set?
especially vs. someone who you think you could have beat, or when you lose due to something you could have prevented, or picked up on and should have been punishing or something

i know some people get really mad vs. some others who don't get mad, much at all.

but do you think that w/ the proper mindset getting mad is almost a staple to losing a match?

Being mad has its advantages. For example, if you're mad, you're activating your flight or fight CNS responses more than you are if you're just calm, which means our have a heightened adrenaline flow which can be really important.

like DF said, its not black and white.

 

[Divinokage]

Being mad has its advantages. For example, if you're mad, you're activating your flight or fight CNS responses more than you are if you're just calm, which means our have a heightened adrenaline flow which can be really important.

like DF said, its not black and white.

Ya but you also get tunnel vision when you are mad so that's not very good. To me if you stay calm and just do what you need to do, it's a lot better.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Some of my best sets have been won when I'm in a "I really don't want to play, I just wanna go home, god dam I don't want to play right now" mindset. And that mindset has similarly resulted in hilariously embarrassing losses.

Emotions are a real problem for me when I play.

Maybe I'm secretly a woman.

 

[SSBMLahti]

Maybe I'm secretly a woman.

It's not secret...trust me.

 

[Dr Peepee]

WTF? That would never work.

LMFAO yo good stuff LOOOL

Sooooo... Anyone want to hop on this?

I'll do it tonight or tomorrow, sorry!

how do u buffer a roll? i keep getting laser -> grabbed and shine grabbed in falco dittos or nair shined by fox

idk how to approach marth. idk if i should? i usually approach just cause i feel bad laserring all day. when i do approach its usually with an early nair or laser -> something. the guy i play against likes to cc my early nair and then grab me. he will also shield it and depending on the on how i time/space my nair either shield grab or wd -> fsmash after i shine. im not sure what i can do about marths wd oos -> fsmash? i tried laserring after i shined a few times and got tipped. also i have a problem with getting hit by marths dash attack. i usually try to laser or out run it. i think i do that cause i dont c it coming. whenever i try to predict it it doesnt go so well . i think my biggest problem in this mu is that early nair and for whatever reason i feel like i have to approach marth!

what should i do when i get a grab on falcon?

also i tried running through my opponent when he had invincibility frames. i worked most to the time =) so thanks again for the advice.

shine grab you usually have to buffer a spotdodge against(c stick down), and c stick left or right gets you a buffered roll.

Well, approaching Marth is alright as long as you do so correctly. And honestly, it's usually better to approach Marth than to let him chase you down with powershields and/or that other stuff that invalidates Falco. You can camp if you want though, just be sure to laser low to **** dash attack and then you'll have to be really tricky and try to nail Marth in his dashes towards you or punish his lag on his swings well, but good luck getting Marths to overcommit these days haha.

Don't early Nair if it's getting CC'd. At low percents opt for more Dair to avoid getting CC ***** so much, but you still have to delay either move a little anyway.

Try double shinining or shine to SH AC Bair if you think the WD OOS is coming(or immediate retreating SH Nair if you're in front of Marth's shield...though I'd think shine grab could work then too). I'm really surprised you can't laser in time though....that sucks LOL. Make sure you're lasering fast enough though if you're trying that, but I guess it's not the safest option.

Shield punish or laser low to avoid dash attack. Ideally leasering low should solve that problem usually though(except when you're close to Marth and trying to gtfo....so be careful about those dash attacks...just shield those).

Throw Falcon towards an edge I guess lol....grabs don't lead to much on him so I don't grab him a lot. He can't shield pressure well so that's part of it for me. Sometimes I just upthrow because that's a pretty good situation for me(being under Falcon on my terms).

what do you think about getting mad, or salty, when you lose a match/set?
especially vs. someone who you think you could have beat, or when you lose due to something you could have prevented, or picked up on and should have been punishing or something

i know some people get really mad vs. some others who don't get mad, much at all.

but do you think that w/ the proper mindset getting mad is almost a staple to losing a match?

Emotion is a huge channel for people to learn through. Getting salty when you lose a set is absolutely great because it forces your mind to stay on the topic of redeeming yourself or getting that guy back. Losing a match though.....that's trickier. You want to maintain composure throughout a set so you continue making solid reads and control yourself well enough to hold back a little at times, but I can't say that getting mad after losing a match is even that bad either. At Pound 5, I used some of my anger after I lost to Armada in order to change how I played and win the set. I've been playing with emotion and confidence lately and decided that anything that allows you to quit respecting the guy as a player and focus on the character(in addition to hyperfocus on your own game plan) is really good. Whether it's getting mad or realizing you have the ability to beat the guy you're playing, you just need to internalize these feelings so you can play to your full potential, and emotion or some other method of confidence-enhancing are phenomenal ways to do this, as I've seen and felt.

Basically, getting mad is okay if you get constructively mad(I can't believe I didn't see this or thought he was that much better than me! It won't happen again!) as long as you channel it productively and don't blame the game or player.

I wouldn't put it so black/white; depending on how you get mad at the situation, it's pretty essential that you get mad imo. What kind of player who has a serious drive to be really good could just come off a loss and not feel some sort of emotion along those lines? Getting mad is important, it shows you care and that the match/loss meant something to you.

You shouldn't let the loss negatively affect you, of course. You also shouldn't sit there johning or pretending to yourself that you "should have won" among other things. I totally agree that with the proper mindset, getting mad is a staple to losing a match. You need to be able to keep a cool head, and have overall good control of your emotions...but that doesn't mean you can't be salty about losing >_>

**** post

Some of my best sets have been won when I'm in a "I really don't want to play, I just wanna go home, god dam I don't want to play right now" mindset. And that mindset has similarly resulted in hilariously embarrassing losses.

Emotions are a real problem for me when I play.

Maybe I'm secretly a woman.

Yeah, taking the emotion out of my play was huge for me a while back because I always always ALWAYS got nervous when I played. I felt like, after a while, I wasn't quite as sharp reactively or able to immerse myself in the match as well if I played like that though, so I feel like human fluctuations in feelings from tourney to tourney may be really good for ensuring continuously solid play.


or maybe we're all women

 

[Pi]

interesting...
here in CFL we've been doing swiss style tourneys, into bracket
and it's part of the reason i posed the question

last time we had our weekly, i beat two people who have given me problems in the past, in swiss
and feeling rather good, had to fight them again in bracket
i lost, to both of them.

and it occurred to me that, coming off of a loss, it probably gave them more drive than i had, having already beaten them
so whereas i was pretty comfortable thinking 'okay you beat these guys before, just stick to ur guns and u got this' they had probably been analyzing why i beat them last time and had a plan coming into how to beat me, reminded them selves of some counters they had and ****

made me realize that even when you win, you gotta take a look at how you won, and why you didn't win harder

 

[Rubyiris]

Swiss is the bess, except when you only have like 16 people.

Inversely, Swiss doesn't work when you have very large amounts of entrants. like 500+

 

[Dr Peepee]

interesting...
here in CFL we've been doing swiss style tourneys, into bracket
and it's part of the reason i posed the question

last time we had our weekly, i beat two people who have given me problems in the past, in swiss
and feeling rather good, had to fight them again in bracket
i lost, to both of them.

and it occurred to me that, coming off of a loss, it probably gave them more drive than i had, having already beaten them
so whereas i was pretty comfortable thinking 'okay you beat these guys before, just stick to ur guns and u got this' they had probably been analyzing why i beat them last time and had a plan coming into how to beat me, reminded them selves of some counters they had and ****

made me realize that even when you win, you gotta take a look at how you won, and why you didn't win harder

If you don't set bigger goals for you to stay pushing hard towards, then yeah that'll happen a lot. Playing for your own potential(see how great it is) is what I recommend, in addition to whatever other goals you may have(like beating certain people or doing so well at a certain tournament).

 

[genkaku]

I lost a close set to a guy, got mad salty, trained for a week to learn ways to counter what beat me, played him again and the difference was crazy. I was about to get a 4 stock but he ragequit.
I honestly thought I was going to get punched in the face he ragequit so hard. It was scary.

 

[Winston]

Swiss is the bess, except when you only have like 16 people.

Inversely, Swiss doesn't work when you have very large amounts of entrants. like 500+

Why wouldn't it work?

 

[Sinji]

I like empty jumping passed the opponent and then dair from behind.

 

[Rubyiris]

Why wouldn't it work?

The higher the number of entrants, the higher chance of variance happening, the higher the chance of someone mediocre as **** sneaking in to top cut, which Swiss is supposed to prevent in the first place.

I've been playing TCGs competitively for about 11 years now, and I've seen this happen so ****ing many times, it's ridiculous.

 

[Bones0]

Sooooo... Anyone want to hop on this?

You should laser a lot more vs. Luigi. It just makes the matchup 10x easier since he can't approach with WDs on the ground, and he drifts too slowly to approach with aerials unless he is already close. If you take him to YS, remember Luigi is mad floaty so you can double shine him off the top. You only did it on the last stock, but he'll die at 18% / 39% / 61% on the top plat / side plats / stage, so it's almost comparable to gimping.

 

[Winston]

The higher the number of entrants, the higher chance of variance happening, the higher the chance of someone mediocre as **** sneaking in to top cut, which Swiss is supposed to prevent in the first place.

I've been playing TCGs competitively for about 11 years now, and I've seen this happen so ****ing many times, it's ridiculous.

>__> at the use of the word 'variance'

but explain. How does more entrants, (i.e. a higher number of rounds you have to perform well in to stay near the top), increase the chances of someone mediocre sneaking in?

The main problem with swiss is the tiebreakers that are necessary for the final cut, but this doesn't seem related to the number of entrants. This problem could be solved by letting everyone with a certain record or better advance (i.e. everyone X-2 or better advance) instead of top (some power of 2), and fill out the double elim bracket with byes.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Yeah, taking the emotion out of my play was huge for me a while back because I always always ALWAYS got nervous when I played. I felt like, after a while, I wasn't quite as sharp reactively or able to immerse myself in the match as well if I played like that though, so I feel like human fluctuations in feelings from tourney to tourney may be really good for ensuring continuously solid play.


or maybe we're all women

Extremes are generally bad things. Too much emotion clouds judgment, but none at all can wear away your mental resolve (it's very taxing for some people to block out everything entirely) and it prevents you from really 'feeling' what's going on. I find sometimes, for me, it's almost like playing with cold hands-- but in a mental way.

Somewhere in the middle, there's gotta be an ideal (and it probably varies from person to person 'cuz we're weird like that). There's gotta be a place where you've achieved enough emotional involvement to be engaged in the match in a meaningful way, while simultaneously not getting caught up in the heat of the moment and making rash decisions based on raw emotions.

People are strange.