Potential Lucas Hax-dash???

[D e l t a]

I've been in the lab recently and I believe Lucas has what resembles a Hax dash off the ledge. It's got about 10 or so frames of vulnerability and is reminiscent of Hax dashing (look this up if you don't know what it is). The main point of this advanced tech is to bait your opponent into throwing out a risky option or to have them respect you at the ledge so that you can safely get back on stage.

How to perform this tech:

Under 100%, ledge jump with up or any jump button
Magnet the first available frame (I believe this is the 4th frame after jumping from ledge last I checked).
Wavedash out of magnet back onto the ledge.

When done correctly, Lucas will do an aerial magnet right as his feet are just above the ledge then land on the ground right when you can jump out.

YouTube link: http://youtu.be/pME4izA6vx0 (apologies on the jank recording lol).

Gfycat

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Uses: If the opponent is standing too close, the magnet will hit them and they will now be in a ledge guard situation. If it hits shield, followup with shield pressure, JC grab -> back throw, or wavedash out safely. If it whiffs, WD back to ledge or approach the enemy if they're caught off guard near center stage.

This can also be used to refresh the tether count and maintain invincibility at the ledge. This saves you from burning your double jump and potentially get hit before grabbing ledge. It's also a nice option to regain your tether if you already used it.

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Any other thoughts?

 

[D e l t a]

Most recent application I got on my friend's Mewtwo

 

[Xcite]

It's alright as a once in a while get up option but definitely not something that should be thrown out consistently.

I remember you posting about this sometime ago on the lucas boards so I did a bit of my own testing to a method similar to this. The best I could come up with were Wavebounce magnets that would essentially have lucas magnet on to the stage and simultaneously have him slide off. Only problem here is that it seems like lucas is still stuck in the ending of the animation of magnet release and there for doesn't grab ledge. So then I tried using edge cancelled aerials after the Wavebounce so that Lucas may fall off the ledge and immediately grab it. But I wasn't able to pull off one rep in debug mode (got too lazy after trying it out for like 5 mins), however I do believe that this method should work in maintaining invincibility, like a real hax dash. On a side note, it never occurred to me to try using PKF as the move to cancel the ledge with. It may work since you usually slide a bit with PKF.

I dunno you should try it out that way and see what you find.

TLDR: Lucas (max dash)? is good but not great. Try Wavebounce stuff and maybe develop a more efficient method.

 

[D e l t a]

Hm I'll see what I can do with ledge cancel / wavebounce stuff. So far, this method is the easiest & most consistent. Requires little commitment and isn't hard to perform at most skill levels. It's a nice mixup and definitely a great trick for Lucas players to keep in mind.

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Atm, I'm just showing a simple method at the ledge that's 90% safe. The magnet hitbox covers a large portion in front of Lucas, so unless your opponent has a really long range or is perfectly spaced outside of this hitbox, it's a good option. Like I said, you're invincible until you can jump out of magnet.

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Side note, in Bryanato's Ness AT videos, he was talking about DJC stuff from the ledge and showing how much better it is. Also, I watch tons of PinkFresh & Neon and both of them typically jump from ledge and do either magnet -> DJC or something similar. They will occasionally try to waveland on stage as well. Wavelanding is slightly faster, but has less invincibility and can be harder to perform.

 

[D e l t a]

TLDR: Lucas (max dash)? is good but not great. Try Wavebounce stuff and maybe develop a more efficient method.

Personally I find it to be his best ledge mixup under 100% like I stated earlier.

As for the wavebounce / ledge cancel stuff, I tried playing around with this and found ledge canceled aerials useful (LC Fair in particular). The main issue is that while I find myself highly technical and able to perform most tech in the game consistently, I still found difficulty in repeatedly getting LC Fairs off the ledge in succession. Wavebounce magnet doesn't seem to be a thing and PKF unless TAS'd, does not seem possible.

I'll practice more with this on the side, but I do not see wave bounced PKF / magnets / LC aerials being plausible. If I somehow become over 70% consistent with any of those methods, I'll be sure to post results.

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For now, it seems that magnet stalling at the ledge like this is the easiest / most efficient trick Lucas has for retaining invincibility without burning a double jump or tether.

 

[D e l t a]

Also, I'm trying to think of a name for this tech.
G.U.M. Dashing perhaps? (Get-Up Magnet waveDash)
Ledge mag-dash?

Feel free to post some ideas lol

 

[Xcite]

Ehh it's not really that noteworthy/game changing tech to be named after. It's just magnet and wavedash back on stage from the ledge lol. But that's just my opinion. Feel free to call it whatever you want. Who knows, maybe it becomes so popular people start calling it Delta dashing lmao.

 

[trancex]

Delta dashing is such a sick name for tech.

We have to make this happen guys. It doesn't even have to be for the magnet ledgestall. That name is just too sick.

 

[D e l t a]

Ehh it's not really that noteworthy/game changing tech to be named after. It's just magnet and wavedash back on stage from the ledge lol. But that's just my opinion. Feel free to call it whatever you want. Who knows, maybe it becomes so popular people start calling it Delta dashing lmao.

Considering it's mostly invincible and an amazing mixup with multiple options that can be performed after, I'd say it's pretty important. After playing against many people who are proficient at ledge guarding, this tech is one of the few that I find to help me get back on stage safely.

Maybe you've never encountered opponents with a strong ledge presence; if so, lucky you. Personally, it was so frustrating being trapped at the ledge when ledge dashing and standard climb up / get up attacks / abysmal roll on stage never fully worked. As for this tech, I've been able to bait their options at the ledge easier in addition to pulling them off stage and reversing the situation.

 

[Xcite]

As a sort of update, I have been able perform ledge cancelled PK Freezes on an inconsistent level. The basic input is to ledge jump > DJ Forward > Wavebounce PKF. It works well enough but takes a bit of practice. I'll give out the exact info on how safe it is but I first have to figure out a bug that's been bothering me while in debug mode.
Basically what's been going on is that performing something like delta dashing doesn't allow me to fast fall after I drop off the edge to grab the ledge in debug mode. So to explain a bit more thoroughly, here is the whole sequence
Frames 1-7: snapped on ledge
8-23: ledge jump
24 and on: magnet and wave dash back (didn't bother to include the frames for this part)
Problem occurs that when inputting a fastfall after the wave dash back (I only inputted the action for one frame, the exact frame lucas is airborne) he doesn't grab ledge. Strangely enough, reenacting the same situation without the ledge jump allows me to fast fall and grab the ledge fine. This also occurs to me with any other method such as the PKF one described above. Anyone have an explanation for this? This basically hinders a great amount on how safe these moves could be. I'm gonna try to do some more research on other characters that might suffer from this but it could more or less likely be apart of a game mechanic I was unaware of or an actual bug with Lucas that needs to be addressed

As a side note: You can input magnet on frame 22 of the ledge jump, but this would lead to a grounded magnet instead of an aerial one which would reduce the amount of invincibility you have available by 3 frames.

In regards to how safe the method I suggested above was, I can guarantee that you are less vulnerable that that of the Delta Dash. However because delta dashing puts out a fairly decent hit box, it is still extremely useful. I'll test my method out while trying to throw out a PKF soon enough. I'll let you all know of my findings.

 

[D e l t a]

Kk. Thanks for the research. I'd love to try this new tech once you find out more.

Possible reasoning for not grabbing ledge: if you hold down when near ledge, your character will not snap to ledge. Try using ledge detection in debug mode and see where Lucas can grab ledge.

Also, a mostly invincible PKF off the ledge seems cool. It's reminiscent of Yoshi's ledge egg game.