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Guide Postmodern RNG tactics (panning & knitting theory)

Discussion in 'Peach' started by Vestboy_Myst, Aug 18, 2015.

  1. Vestboy_Myst

    Vestboy_Myst
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    NJ TO & Peach knitwit

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    Two strategies for Peach's side-smash and down-B that you can take as seriously as you care to.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I. Knitting Theory of Turnips
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This is a combination of an optimization technique ("Knitting") and a few general rules for turnip use to maximize the benefits gained by it.
    re
    Currently the prevailing method to look for a stitchface between stocks is pull>throw>pull>throw. Pulls take 29 frames and grounded throws take 23 frames (direction changes frame of item release, but they all complete in the same time). This equates to a 52 frames per turnip (fpt) cycle. (.866 seconds). It looks like this, everyone should be familiar with it already (gif created by @radiogiraffe for this post, depicts a perfect pull>throw cycle)

    [​IMG]
    (not in-game speed)

    The fastest way to get rid of a turnip while remaining grounded to pull another (without getting into TAS realm bs) has been known since 2006. Luckily, its also unique to Peach and DJL characters. The Qdrop, named for @Quetzalcoatl , was first detailed in his guide:


    By completing several Qdrops and pulls in sequence, termed 'Knitting' (since you're trying to make stitches), Peach optimizes the rate at which she can pull multiple turnips in a row. There are currently 5 documented Qdrop variations in two classes (YYZ vs YZY)

    Quetz's Old School method (Y>Y+Z) is the easiest to start with when getting an idea of the qdrop timing. Just mash the second X/Y and Z at what you perceive to be the 'same time'. This method gives you a mix of 7/10/13 (YYZ) and 10/12 (YZY) qdrops depending on if Z or Y/Z is input first. It is pretty random, but personally I seem to get mostly YYZ qdrops when doing this.

    Not sure who first discovered this set of inputs or when it was, but it was documented and sent to me by @radiogiraffe on /r/ssbm. The inputs are the same as the Rush song and is the most optimal way to knit.

    Here is a complete list of inputs for the three YYZ qdrops as documented by @DarkRijin
    7 frame Qdrops give you a 36 fpt knitting cycle (.58333 sec), saving 16 frames over pull>throw each individual 'knit'. It takes 69% as much time as pull>throw, and you're getting to see 44.4% more turnips per second as compared to pull>throw.

    The GIF below shows the 7 frame qdrop / 36 fpt cycle and is also by @radiogiraffe . Because the DJ comes before the zdrop, the turnip will always fall behind her. Here are the two in gfy form (both recorded at 33fps, "#?speed=1.8" at the end of the URLs should approximate full speed) (gif by @radiogiraffe, mirror close to in-game speed http://gfycat.com/CleanOpulentIbex#?speed=1.8 )
    [​IMG]

    This was the optimal Qdrop method at the time of original posting, and in compliance with cunningham's law the 7 frame Qdrop was brought to my attention within 24h. The exact inputs for this Qdrop as determined by @Stratocaster are as follows:

    These are the 10 frame Qdrop (39 fpt, faster, see GIF below) and the 12 frame Qdrop (41 fpt, slower, easier/more common). Both drop the turnip in front of Peach.

    Getting a combination of these two qdrops during your knitting gives you a 39-41 fpt cycle (.65-.683 sec), saving 11-13 frames each pull. Knitting with these two qdrops takes 75-79% as much time as pull>throw, and you're getting to see 27-33% more turnips per second as compared to pull>throw

    The 39 fpt / 10 frame Qdrop, gif also by @Stratocaster
    (mirror gif at 1/6 game speed http://gfycat.com/AdmirableHomelyBumblebee )
    [​IMG]

    ----------Benefits of Knitting
    As long as you're able to do one of the above Qdrops consistently, you're still saving frames over Pull>throw. Even if you're just mashing jump+Z and have no idea which one is coming out, congratulations you've learned to knit. This now gives you a 36-41 fpt cycle (.58333-.683 sec), saving 11-16 frames each pull. Searching with Qdrops takes you only 69-79% of the time pull>throw takes, and you're getting to see 27-44% more turnips/second as compared to pull>throw. (disclaimer: turnips cannot exist in a non-integer state)

    Just before an enemy respawn, this can help expand those 2 safe pulls to 3, or free up some extra frames for panning (see next section). Knitting is perfect for when you get a kill off the top. It builds on the split-second facial recognition Peach mains should have already. Improving that will improve your knitting efficiency and visa versa.

    Knitting helps force an approach if you're waiting out a PS transformation. I've have also had some success with it in the early stages of Samus bomb recovery, while waiting for her to get within throw range.

    The one downside to knitting is not having the active hitbox flying about when they spawn, so you may still want to opt for an uthrow on the 2nd to last turnip pull (depending your location/spawn location/stage), and then holding onto the last turnip for immediately engaging the opponent. (From the Turnip Guide Revision 1: a smashed upthrow adds ~3.4% damage to the turnip, but its damage decreases as it rises into the air / regains as it falls back down)

    ----------Principles of Effective Turnip Usage

    The entire point of knitting is to enable us to 'play the odds' as often as possible. Every pull comes with an expected value (EV) of how much we will 'get out of it'. The normal turnips (duds) are our baseline (=EV), ie the expected 'return' on our 29 frame investment. Obviously we want to get as many +EV pulls as we can in our games. An unsafe/interrupted pull is -EV, meaning you should avoid them at all costs.

    As some background, here is some info on turnips from the turnip guide revision 1:
    • 'Dud': =EV, 6% damage, 25 base KB, 60 KB growth
    • 'Winky': +EV, 8% damage, slightly more KB than normal
    • 'Dot': +EV, 16% damage, slightly more KB than winky
    • 'Stitch': +EV, 34% damage, slightly more KB than winky
    All turnips last 141 frames = 2.35 sec in the air.

    H
    ere is the typical turnip distribution chart as documented by @Magus420
    [​IMG]

    Here are the approximated numbers I'll work with based off of the above chart:
    • The dud faces are all effectively the same, with an 89% chance of pulling (~1 out of every 1.2 pulls)
    • Winky has a 6.8% chance of pull (~1 out of every 14.6 pulls)
    • DotEyes/SemiStitch/theodore has a 1.711% chance of pull (~1 out of every 58.5)
    • Stitchface/gaddish has a 1.711% chance of pull (~1 out of every 58.5)
    • Pulling an item is about .8% chance (~1 out of every 128).
    • ~10% chance (~1 out of every 10) you will get +EV turnip (winky, stitch, dot) each pull
    • ~11% chance (~1 out of every 9) of pulling anything +EV (winky/stitch/dot/saturnbomb/ sword)
    Briefly stated, knitting theory is a system of using every turnip to the fullest, and then getting pulls as efficiently as possible. (aka having such an effective use of turnips that the only foreseeable way to optimize further is to start using 'knitting')

    Below are the core tenants behind knitting theory, and need to be used in conjunction with the technique (i'd argue knitting on its own is too small of a benefit to be worthwhile). They still hold for the usual pull>throw method of searching and are (imo) worth incorporating into any peach player's game

    1) Recatching
    If you are unable to recatch well or don't regularly go for them when able, there is no point in trying to optimize your turnip game with knitting. Stop learning this weird technique and go work on recatching first. Without doubling or tripling the value we get out of each pull (especially our +EV turnips/saturn, but duds too) we waste our miniscule benefit gained from emphasizing playing of the odds.

    It will not help you to work on getting to a +EV pull faster if you cannot use it to its fullest already. Even if we can see more turnips-per-second with knitting, we never want to make pull we don't have to. The odds are NOT in our favor that we'll get something better, and its a waste of vital frames when the opponent is not dead. According to knitting theory, recatching as well as possible is 100x more important than actually incorporating knitting into your game.

    you can even recatch an accidentally qdropped turnip (for the 7f one at least) by hitting A right after, it can be pretty hard though. Here is a gif by @radiogiraffe showing her item grab box (grey)



    2) Winky is the best
    The goal of knitting, despite the name, is not to find stichface. If you find winky, the most common +EV turnip, its time to stop knitting immediately. Even if you have plenty of time before the opponent spawns, your search is over. Start focusing on your stage positioning for the incoming invincible foe.

    If you did decide to keep pulling, you'll have thrown away perfectly good EV 10/11 times in search of something rarer. There is a 1/11 chance that you did luck out and got something as-good-as or better than winky, but its most likely got another winky anyway. The chance of getting anything better than winky (stitch/dot/item) is a paltry 312/7424 = 1/23.8 pulls = 4.2%. Its simply never worth gambling the guaranteed value in your hand for a high-risk-high-reward attempt like that. All in all I find winky to be the most 'bang for your buck' turnip, especially when you recatch reliably and regularly. He should be a welcome sight, never a disappointment. (be careful with the facial recognition, he can get tricky)


    3) Never make an unsafe pull
    This is about as important as recatching. As stated above, an unsafe / incomplete pull is the only time a pull can give you negative value. Spending 29 frames to play an already low-odds lottery and then being damaged/comboed/killed is probably the worst investment you could make.

    Every single risky pull is giving free % to your opponent in a gamble to complete the FULL 29 frames (if interrupted on 28 or earlier, the turnip disappears). Even if you get hit as soon as the animation completes, there is still an additional chance that you'll drop the turnip in hitstun (no exact percentage, but it seems to be 1/10 of the times you get hit while holding a turnip). On top of that, if you luck out and retain the turnip/item, they're still getting a free punish before you can use that pull to defend yourself.

    This is a core principle to peach play that you end up breaking when first playing a new opponent, since there are many matchup/stage combinations where you need to test pulling in uncertain situations. This sense comes through trial and error and playing on the edge of your opponent's reach in neutral. Ideally you'll slowly learn which opportunities are barely safe (can buffer spotdodge/shield to avoid punish) or read openings specific to your opponent, thereby minimizing your number of -EV pulls each game. If you're unsure that its safe, don't pull!


    4) Know basic probabilities
    Using the general rule of getting extra value one out of every nine pulls, probability can help further predict the likelihood of getting the +EV pull you're looking for. Each pull there is a 8/9 chance of getting a default turnip, so after two pulls (8/9 * 8/9) there is a 64/81 = 79% chance that you got a default turnip both times. This equates to a 21% probability that you get at least one +EV pull after two pulls.

    Continuing this a bit:
    • 30% likely to get at least one +EV pull after 3 pulls
    • 50% likely to get at least one +EV pull after 6 pulls
    • 75% likely to get at least one +EV pull after 12 pulls
    • 85% likely to get at least one +EV pull after 16 pulls
    • 95% likely to get at least one +EV pull after 25 pulls
    For stitchface individually:
    • 10% likely to get at least one stitch after 6 pulls
    • 20% likely to get at least one stitch after 13 pulls
    • 50% likely to get at least one stitch after 40 pulls
    For items in general:
    • 5% likely to get at least one item after 6 pulls
    • 10% likely to get at least one item after 14 pulls
    • 25% likely to get at least one item after 38 pulls
    These may appear a bit optimistic at first, but become more reasonable once you start paying better attention to all the winkys you've been throwing away your whole life. Practice keeping track of how many pulls youve gotten in each game (takes some getting used to) or the gap between winkies/stitches. Sneaking in those extra pulls DOES make a difference.

    5) Get comfortable with items
    Items present Peach with a huge immediate advantage, its imperative to know how to capitalize with each the second she finds one.

    Bomb-------
    +++EV, do not be afraid of blowing up, learn to use it right and that should not happen. great when dropped, learn to zdrop>airdodge and qdrop oos. throws faster than turnips. avoid throwing when near platforms to avoid janky collision SDs. Mini guide by Caup

    Sword-------
    usually best to throw, can swing to mess with opponent. sometimes bad because it replaces your dash attack. goes away after falling on the ground two times at most. throws faster then turnips. some info by 1000g2g3g4g800999

    Saturn--------
    very strong shield breaker, plus people are used to shielding turnips. super combo when recaught, lasts the longest of all the items. try not to waste as an offstage edgeguard, throw him onstage to turn around instead if you can. feels like it has lower KB/scaling than a dud.

    Corollary:
    I was tempted to make a rule about 'minimizing wasted turnip/item throws' but its a bit harder to codify in my opinion. Its clear that pulls that end up not connecting are not necessarily -EV. You could be controlling space, turning around midair, or covering an option. As a result this is more of an important facet of peach knowledge in general, and is independent of knitting theory.

    I'll leave it in this form:
    "Know when to hold em, know when to throw them, know when to pull again, know when to run."

    (As a sidenote, remember that all turnips when z-dropped only cause 1-2% and minimal KB / hitstun on collision, no matter what face it has. Following Knitting theory, it is never right to drop a +EV turnip where you normally would (edgeguard vs marth, running off platform). Holding onto a +EV pull until a good opening appears to throw it is smartest, so choose another option in those situations)



    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    II. Panning for Frying Pans
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Whenever you have spare time (especially in the mus that utilize fsmash), cycle through fsmash until you get the frying pan. The game doesn't actually cycle through the three in order, it randomly chooses one of the remaining two weapons to use each time. In other words, you will never get two of the same weapon in a row. Now that you've used pan, either the club or racket will come out on your next fsmash, which both have slightly better range and (arguably) KB trajectory (frame data for all three is the same). The first fsmash of every stock is picked from the three randomly, so this effect does not persist through death.This technique has been known since 2005, possibly earlier.

    It is better in most cases to knock an opponent farther horizontally away with the club/racket and hope to set up an edgegard/gain space. Even if they are at high %, a frying pan will rarely kill (even when charged) and is awkward to act out of sometimes since they don't get sent a safe distance away. This, coupled with its slightly shorter range, makes it the weakest of the three in the matchups that I use fsmash the most in. In general, I find Fsmash is only worth using at maximum range anyway.

    There are only two situations in which a frying pan may be better (that I can think of at least). One is as a puff rest punish, fully charged, on some stages. The other is as a low% tool for comboing/juggling fastfallers, but these are the mus that fsmash is hardly ever used in. (There is some preference involved. If you think that the club is the weakest of the three, you can go clubbing between stocks, and if you hate the racket you can go racketeering instead.)

    One fsmash takes about as much time as a pull>qdrop or pull>throw, so you count it as one of your 'pull' attempts before starting to knit. Keep track of the last fsmash used, get good at reacting to them, and don't forget that the anti-pan effect goes away when you die. IMPORTANT: when waiting for opponent to spawn, DO ANY PANNING BEFORE KNITTING. Don't want to risk throwing away a +EV pull with a smash throw.
    • Pan: 15-18%, 39 base KB, .44 KB scaling, vertical KB, most damage, slightly less range
    • Club: 13-17%, 50 base KB, .38 KB scaling, 45 deg above horizontal KB, tipper/sourspot effect, slightly more range
    • Racket: 12-16%, 48 base KB, .18 KB scaling, horizontal KB, least damage
    Total: 47 frames (~.78 seconds)
    Hit: 15-18
    Charge frame: 8
    IASA: 40
    Shield stun: 16
    Shield hit lag: 7
    Advantage: -14_-11

    Gifs and data from "Complete Peach Hitboxes and Frame Data" thread, damage and KB data from SSBWiki and @Veril 's peach notes (damages may not be completely accurate)

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    III. References
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1. @SuperDoodleMan @Stratocaster @emmawatsonsboyfriend "http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-peach-hitboxes-and-frame-data.287033/"
    2. @Quetzalcoatl "http://smashboards.com/threads/quetzalcoatls-extensive-turnip-guide.79319/"
    3. @Quetzalcoatl "http://smashboards.com/threads/quetzs-turnip-guide-revision-1-turnip-damage-and-knockback.400824/"
    4. @CAUP "http://smashboards.com/threads/bob-omb-minutiae.388104/"
    5. @Veril "http://smashboards.com/threads/peach-data-and-notes.309178/"
    6. @Magus420 "Melee turnip table"
    7. "http://www.ssbwiki.com/Peach_(SSBM)"
    8. "http://www.ssbwiki.com/Forward_smash/Knockback_chart"
    9. Thanks to @Stratocaster for the 10/12 Frame Qdrop frame data & the gif
    10. Thanks to @radiogiraffe for sending me information on the 7 Frame Qdrop & the other gifs
     
    #1 Vestboy_Myst, Aug 18, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2016
  2. CAUP

    CAUP
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    Panning is new to me! That is a great idea! I think that is especially useful for edge guards. Being able to never get frying pan is great. Also if you get golf club you can go for up tilt forward smash on spacies. Both pan and racket are great for that as the person will either get hit straight up or miss the tech. I'm sure there are other applications too.

    I don't really understand the importance of EV. I think you trying to move the meta toward q dropping is admirable. It is the future. Calling it knitting is a little silly though :p
     
    #2 CAUP, Aug 18, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2015
    Zalezus and MagicScrumpy like this.
  3. Sycorax

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    LMAO! :3 I wonder how many people will get that reference?

    Nice write-up.
     
    Vestboy_Myst likes this.
  4. Vestboy_Myst

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    NJ TO & Peach knitwit

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    updated OP with the following info:
    • anti-pan / anti-club / anti-racket effect does not persist through death
    • first fsmash after a spawn is always picked randomly from the three
    • Z dropped turnips all use the properties of a 'dud' on collision
    • fix: panning has been known since 2005, not 2010
    also put out an announcement if you'd like to RT
     
    #4 Vestboy_Myst, Aug 18, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2015
  5. CAUP

    CAUP
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    If you are updating the guide, the mini guide you reference is done by me, not Quetz, though he is an awesome guy :)
     
  6. Vestboy_Myst

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    Fixed! my apologies, quetz shows up a lot in this thing so i must have gotten mixed up
     
    #6 Vestboy_Myst, Aug 18, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2015
  7. CubT

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    Amazing guide. Gives me some ideas I had never thought about,
     
  8. Vestboy_Myst

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    possiblly big update, @radiogiraffe gave me the following info on /r/ssbm



    @Kadano @Magus420 @schmooblidon can anyone confirm if this is indeed faster/easier than stratocaster's method outlined in the OP? if so ill be sure to update it as soon as possible
     
    #8 Vestboy_Myst, Aug 19, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2015
  9. Kadano

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    Yes, I can confirm.
     
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  10. CAUP

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    I can confirm it is easier
     
  11. Vestboy_Myst

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    #11 Vestboy_Myst, Aug 19, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2015
  12. MTL Kyle

    MTL Kyle
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    That is the most useful guide in 5+ years probabl LOL
     
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  13. Vestboy_Myst

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    OP officially updated with new info!
    • gave 7 frame qdropping its own section
    • cleaned up stratocaster's 10-12 frame qdrop methods
    • added 'old school qdrop' as its own section
    • included gifs of new 36 fpt cycle and one comparing it to perfect pull>throw
    • edited other sections to reflect changes
     
    #13 Vestboy_Myst, Aug 20, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
  14. stingers

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    cool stuff mang
     
  15. N JA

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    Thanks for the information! Right now I'm struggling the most to not light shield after the drop.

    Also, IMHO, sewing / sowing is even more clever of a term.
     
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  16. Vestboy_Myst

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    Updating soon (really busy) with the following info:
    • fix: both the 10/12 frame Qdrops make the turnip fall in front of her
    • fix: the oldschool method of jumping then mashing z+y gives you a mix of the 7/10/12 frame qdrops depending on if Z or Y/X is read first
    • if you Qdrop by accident you can recatch the item with 'A' immediately after (for 7F Qdrop at least) (more credit to @radiogiraffe)
    • Accompanying gif also by radiogiraffe: (grey = item grab box) http://gfycat.com/SnappyOrdinaryBufeo[​IMG]
     
    #16 Vestboy_Myst, Aug 21, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2015
  17. CAUP

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    Yeah q drop grab is really fun. It makes me feel like a boss
     
  18. N JA

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    Even flashier than z drop >float > recatch
     
  19. Klemes

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    This blew me away. A HUGE bravo and thank you.
    I'm still far from getting true benefits out of this tho.

    -After practicing Qdrop quite some time several times yesterday, I found out It's gonna take way longer for me to master it. Actually I'm still working on DJL alone, to dash away after I extended out of DD range, and to double jab out of a run (any other application I don't know of ?).
    So I'm gonna do things step by step I guess.

    -Whenever I get, say a stitch, I have a very hard time landing it. Should I play mind games, or always try to hit a FCaerial before ?
    I've been watching over and over again armada erasing whole stocks with a single stitch, but I still strugle way too hard to even recognize an opening when I'm holding a stitch. Is there any "guide" I should look for ?
     
  20. GofG

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    We would say "expected value", not "expectation value".
     
  21. N JA

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    Actually, how does z dropping plus float compare? With the drop either before the float or after.
    Something like 5 to jump, 1 to drop, 1 to float, and x to get down
     
  22. Quetzalcoatl

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VydVrK2VZ2kThis is a video that was posted on Youtube in 2006, the video would have been originally recorded even earlier. At around 0:13 I executed a Qdrop so that I could grab Bringer's Yoshi after shielding the Down B. 10 years later, it is still the only example I can point to where it has been done in a real recorded match.
    When I originally wrote about the idea, I was just starting to realise exactly how far the character could actually be pushed. Back then I didn't get much chance to travel and play competitively and so I spent a lot of time coming up with new tricks and ideas.

    DJL has been known for a very long time, I don't even know who is to credit for ideas such as using it OoS or platform insta-lands. I was always surprised though, that no one ever really seemed to get excited about what it actually meant.
    When Superdoodleman asked about ideas for his Perfect Control video, I suggested the idea that Peach could power shield a flurry of attacks and then DJL out asap to be able to Shield again. He made the clip with Falco and was impressed with how it looked in the end. I then suggested as a follow up idea, that it could be possible that Peach could powershield Fox's lasers and approach at the same time with DJL. Sure enough Superdoodleman delivered one of the most exciting pieces of footage of what 20XX Peach would look like in the Perfect Control video.

    But despite this knowledge being out there, it is sad to see that all these years later we still don't have any Peach players that are even using DJL OoS. The best we have got is some platform lands.

    Peach players have a lot to learn from the 20XX Fox players and the 20GX Falcons. There doesn't seem to be the same initiative on our end to not just theorise but also demonstrate the extremes the character can be taken. So I hope that when Peach players read articles like this, they don't once again dismiss this as too technical to be useful and miss yet another opportunity to take the character to the next level.

    @Vestboy_Myst Thankyou for taking the time and effort to put together this outstanding post. The theory behind knitting is sound and well explained and the proposed applications are realistic. This tactic also has the added benefit of not needing to be performed in a pressure situation, such as shield drop aerials, so it should be easy to get practiced at it by giving it a go in between stocks. If you mess up then it's not that big a deal.

    Regarding panning, it seems like a necessary tactic if we want to even open up a discussion about when and why Forward Smash should be used.

    I would really like to see some Peach players show videos of them making use of these tactics in a real game. In fact I might even make a thread devoted solely to showcasing videos that demonstrate 20XX Peach stuff in real games.
     
    N JA, CAUP, Klemes and 1 other person like this.
  23. Vestboy_Myst

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    so based on this data from @DarkRijin it looks like there are two classes of qdrops: 7-10-13 frames Qdrop (yyz) and 10-12 frames Qdrop (yzy). Quetz's method is pretty much picking one of those five semi-randomly based on the timing / exact read input

    i'm going to spend a few more days compiling information and do a ton of work on the OP later this week.

     
  24. Vestboy_Myst

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    Thank you for the kind words @Quetzalcoatl , it means a lot.

    I think I was realistic in the guide when I said that knitting theory isnt a complete game changer. It is, however, very feasible and a straight up improvement over the current method. If you're looking for optimizations it only natural to try it out, and there certaintly isnt any harm in using it (again, only if used correctly). Therefore its only natural that the 20FC peach would use knitting whenever able.

    In reality I've found messing up (ie jumping) pretty treacherous depending on stage/mu, so I've started trying to knit below a platform in order to DJL to safety in case of an accidental fh.

    The fsmash discussion would be interesting. I really only seeing it being useful in a small handful of mus. Even then its questionable if its better to pan or knit when given the frames in each mu. If anyone wants to give some input on that feel free below (or start a new thread, and I'll update this thread with anything we can come up with)

    @GofG good catch, mixed up my termnology from poker / quantum mechanics. will fix next update
     
    #24 Vestboy_Myst, Aug 26, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2015
  25. DarkRijin

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    I never thought my like 30-40 minutes of screwing around in debug mode would come in so handy! I definitely appreciate the credit...if my data can help out this amazing peach guide i would be honored beyond all belief.
     
  26. Vestboy_Myst

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    first recorded instance of knitting since this guide was posted! @BladeWise vs nintendude last night
    http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/v/13657193?t=253m06s (4:13:07 if the url doesn't work)

    not bad considering he only saw this guide about a week ago. stage placement and timing were perfect as a proof of concept, and he gets a stitch not long after the stage transforms.

    can anyone get that into gfy/gif form? i only know how to do it once the vod is on youtube
    EDIT: not quite knitting...
     
  27. N JA

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    Yo, this isn't the same thing. This is what I was asking about in my previous post, where you use float to z-drop without going too far from the ground.
     
  28. Vestboy_Myst

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    you're right. i̶d̶ ̶s̶t̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶i̶d̶e̶r̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶k̶n̶i̶t̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶s̶i̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶w̶a̶y̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶s̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶t̶i̶m̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶p̶u̶l̶l̶>̶t̶h̶r̶o̶w̶ ̶c̶y̶c̶l̶e̶,̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶i̶s̶n̶t̶ ̶a̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶l̶ ̶q̶d̶r̶o̶p̶.̶ ̶definitely slower and maybe a bit easier for some than the methods I outlined in the guide, just not sure exactly how much worse it is. another thing to play around with in frame by frame before revising I guess

    EDIT: floatdropping is worse, and harder to do well enough for it to be worthwhile. see post #40 / post-20606621 later in this thread for more info
     
  29. CAUP

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    I have been doing float drop pull for a while. It's basically just for style purposes. And recatch looks cool. It's not the most useful thing and not that easy. I only learned it because I thought it would have a use it didn't have.
     
  30. Genuine

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    Is there any advice on doing this and not buffering lightshield? That seems to be my biggest obstacle while trying to learn this.
     
  31. CAUP

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    I have the same problem with that method. The problem is I think you have to press z for one frame?
     
  32. Vestboy_Myst

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    try to press the rightmost short edge of the Zbutton and then slide your finger off to the side. i use claw grip so my middle finger is Z, but index should work the same. not much of your finger is actually on the Z button, just enough to flick it
     
    #32 Vestboy_Myst, Sep 7, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2015
  33. DarkRijin

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    depending on how long you are in the air for is how long you can be pressing Z...for the perfect method that i put in the frame data for you can only press the Z button for the one frame of inputting it and thats it, holding for even a 2nd frame will result in shielding since you will be on the ground already
     
  34. Vestboy_Myst

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    still pretty busy so haven't gotten around to updating the guide, but here is a nice string of knitting i pulled off tonight (aside from the fact that it was unsafe/punished) http://www.gfycat.com/CalculatingDeliciousFishingcat
    post your knitting/panning success stories/gifs

     
    #34 Vestboy_Myst, Oct 10, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2015
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  35. Vestboy_Myst

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    Here is 8 knits in a row https://vid.me/neFX (WR as of 11/1/2015)
    calling all challengers, someone who is actually technical should break it easily
    1 knit = pull>qdrop
    lightshield, leaving the ground or a throw ends the streak (and without slowing down between the inputs)
     
    #35 Vestboy_Myst, Nov 2, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2015
  36. DarkRijin

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    does it have to be in a tournament setting? i don't get to go to tournaments often but i will accept the challenge...might take me a long while to get though since i can barely do one myself
     
  37. Vestboy_Myst

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    not at all, that was done on netplay with someone else who was practicing it

    doubt youd have time to do more than 8 knits in a tourny set anyway :p
     
  38. Vestboy_Myst

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    #38 Vestboy_Myst, Nov 5, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2015
  39. Vestboy_Myst

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    met a random peach on netplay the other day who was able to knit once or twice, nice to see others are starting to try it out
     
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  40. Vestboy_Myst

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    ive seen more peaches starting to knit, especially on netplay which is awesome. worryingly a few ive seen on stream (bladewise, trifasia, smokeythekid's peach ) are using a float-drop method and not the qdrop method outlined above

    floating and then dropping is slow compared to qdropping no matter how good you are at it. you might as well be pulling and throwing normally just to get the hitbox out instead of saving the very small number of frames you get.

    here is the most optimal floatdrop found on short notice for this post
    -----
    5f jumpsquat + 1f jumpf + 1f frame (need to wait 1f before float) + 5f float release + 1f falling + 4f landing = 17 frames

    turnip dropped: frame 13
    peach lands: frame 14
    actionable: frame 18
    -----

    so qdrop knitting takes 6 frames optimally and 12 frames at its most lenient, saving 16-11 frames over throw. the BEST floatdrop (very hard to do, easier to perfect qdrop imo) takes 18 frames and saves 5 frames over just throwing it. most floatdrops are not this perfect and basically tie with grounded throw for the total frames it takes

    one person who floatdrops instead of qdrops said that it 'makes it easier to react to an accidentally dropped stitch for a recatch'. this is interesting but still seems a bit silly since 1) you are still taking basically as much time as a throw but not getting a hitbox out 2) you'll have to relearn recatching with actual Qdrops anyway if you think its that worthwhile 3) you shouldnt be accidentally dropping +EV turnips anyway

    thanks to @Vesne for help with the frame data. update coming to the OP... soon (TM)
    (more in-depth http://pastebin.com/rNjK0GNx )
    @N JA you asked about this in this thread back in august
     
    #40 Vestboy_Myst, Dec 16, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2015
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