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Post-release tier vote

What tier are they?

  • S

    Votes: 1 1.8%
  • A

    Votes: 15 27.3%
  • B

    Votes: 25 45.5%
  • C

    Votes: 11 20.0%
  • D

    Votes: 1 1.8%
  • E

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Little mac

    Votes: 2 3.6%

  • Total voters
    55

Soyaccino

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
42
Switch FC
488651829403
Some of you giddy kippers voted him mid/tier before he was even out! What are people’s thoughts now? Assuming you believe in tier lists.
 

link2702

Smash Champion
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
2,778
Still mid tier.

They’ve got a few solid tools but also some sluggish moves and short range on a couple. The wonder wing is a wild card, but you gotta be careful not to overuse it due not only to the 5 per stock mechanic, but also cuz it’s ridiculously easy to punish if you start overusing it due to the end lag.

But hey, I’d rather they be just “ok” than complete garbage, or so overpowered that they became despised later on like brawl meta knight or 4 Bayonetta.
 

BitBitio

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 8, 2019
Messages
205
Definitely could be better, but look at it this way: excellent recovery, good kill power, good grounded mobility, useful projectiles. In exchange for being slow and not comboing easily.
 

SleuthMechanism

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 25, 2014
Messages
736
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The void
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SleuthMechanism
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D. low tier. They're like plant in the way that they have some good concepts but none of them really flow together very well to form a cohesive playstyle. He also struggles way to hard with killing with his only good KO move being side B
 
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HenryXLII

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 1, 2015
Messages
279
Location
Ann Arbor MI
NNID
HenryXLII
3DS FC
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I'm going to be the first on this thread to say high tier. Excellent zoning tools and set ups that force approaches, has several moves that create tech chase set ups, which wonder wing is designed to punish. A solid grab with down throw leading into drag down nair which leads to grab resets, mix ups, and kill confirms past 100%. He's heavy so he can survive longer than most characters, and has a ton of tools to get out of disadvantage if he is knocked far enough away, and a strong ledge trap game with grenades, eggs, and wonder wing hitting bellow the ledge. Not to mention how much the enemy has to respect wonder wing in neutral.

The only things stopping Banjo from being a top tier is that he loses to swords pretty badly, and lacks any real "get off me" tools. His weight combined with the fact that none of his moves come out immediately means he is juggle/combo food, lastly his dash takes forever to turn around once it transitions into talon trot, which means he can't fully take advantage of his ground speed.

Even with those negatives in mind, I don't think Banjo will be mid tier. The character simply has too many strengths that flow together really well. In capable hands he is going to be tricky, deadly, and dare I say flashy. I also suspect he will have a ton of loyal players to help push his meta.

Having a ton of fun with Banjo and am without a doubt making him my secondary, hell I am even considering making him my main which is saying alot considering I have been loyally maining Robin since day one of 3DS!
 
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StormC

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
8,162
The only things stopping Banjo from being a top tier is that he loses to swords pretty badly
Definitely felt this fighting Ike. I was just like "okay yeah I have no options here."

...I still won because Ike SD'd, though.
 

Cap'n Jack

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
1,345
I feel like he is a good counter pick to campers. Just one good read on a projectile can lead to a KO with Wonderwing
 

Reila

the true enemy of humanity is anime
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
9,240
Location
Alma
I feel like he is a good counter pick to campers. Just one good read on a projectile can lead to a KO with Wonderwing
They are, you mean.

I haven't played them yet but they seem decent for online play, at the very least. I wish their neutral B was better but it still too early to judge their kit.
 

Cap'n Jack

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
1,345
I think their neutral B will be good, but needs a patch to be just a smidge faster to transition between FPS mode and normal
 

ze9

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 20, 2014
Messages
655
For some reason they remind me a lot of Ridley.
They have obvious strengths, but the moveset overall is kinda wonky and exploitable and you have to really know what you're doing to play well. They also lack a good "get off me" option which is their biggest flaw, in my opinion.
 

WiiRool

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 17, 2018
Messages
29
Location
The Netherlands
NNID
WiiRool
Switch FC
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High mid-tier for now. I think this character has a lot of room for growth.
 

Jebril

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Messages
85
Mid Tier because once people figure out how to play around Side B Banjo isn't exceptional in any particular way. Hes' just solid, he's a well balanced character with decent options but none of them are particularly good. He'd be low tier if he didn't have a good throw game, his B-Throw is great as is his D-Throw I've noticed which effectively can kill at around 130%...which is actually pretty huge.

The other big thing is his grenade which is actually huge, it feels like Jr's Down B but even more annoying because of how it bounces around instead of being predictable making it more to avoid. also the fact that you can instantly catch it in the air is pretty huge and a boost to his recovery. He can grenade, catch it, Up-B, then let it explode and Up-B again so there's good mix ups with it which a character like Jr can't do because he simply can't catch his own Koopaling in the air.

His B-Air also has really good priority and is good for zoning and punishing, his D-Air is a good mix up tool but other than that...sucks. It's not good for spiking or punishing really. His N-Air because it's an inconsistent multi-hit is a pretty big weakness IMO, I haven't played with him enough maybe it can be used to link to stuff, I know fast fall B-Air does link to F-Tilt but I don't think N-Air has enough hit stun to link to anything, would have to test it, but honestly a good N-Air is a good get off me option and I don't think Banjo has that.

Side B has too much start up to be that either, but holy crap is Side B so strong in terms of power, damage, and priority over everything. It's still not broken in any sense got huge amounts of end lag and only goes straight so it's still predictable, and you only get 5 of them and it's pretty much guaranteed 2 of them at least are going to be used for safe recoveries because his recovery can be gimped without really good mix ups. Without side B and his throws I think he'd easily be low tier. His grenades might push him to high mid tier.
 

Cap'n Jack

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
1,345
Banjo is an all around balanced character, as he should be. They just need to buff his neutral special.

Also I can see Banjo being a beast on teams because of Wonderwing being the greatest “break it up” move for digging your partner out of trouble whilst punishing your partner’s enemy.
 

Oz o:

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
214
I'm the last guy you'll hear say "x character is top tier" on release, but you know what? I think he's pretty good. I didn't want to exaggerate and put him on A tier, but I went with B because I know he's not exactly an average character. He's pretty heavy, but he's also fairly mobile, given his run speed. I've found his frame data underwhelming, until I actually gave him a try. His normals are surprisingly good, such as his tilts, Nair, Bair and Uair. Bair seems to always be able to catch things OoS, as well as things like jumps. I find myself using this move a lot, since it can ocassionally lead to very good combos in conjuction to Uair (another really good combo tool). From the Banjos I've seen in top level play (Zackray and Smokk, among others), I haven't seen them use Fair enough. It's Banjo's safest aerial on shield, and it even has a slight disjoint on the arc. Though, I understand if people prefer to save it as a kill move. It can kill in the low 100s, which is really good.

I think two things will really define you as a Banjo player, and that's how you use Grenades, as well as Side B. Side B has a ton of possibilities to land throughout a match, and I feel 5 per stock is more than to get the job done. You're going to have to be good at catching airdodges/spotdodges, as well as attacks. It's honestly not that hard to land, if you're constantly aware of these things. Opponents might be especially vulnerable to it if they're constantly trying to catch you at the ledge with strong attacks (leaves them open). It's ridiculous how strong this move is. I've been killing at 60 pretty consistently. I've even killed at 30-40 off of disgusting reads.

Lastly, for me, Grenades. I think this will really define a good Banjo player. It's how you condition your opponent with them, as well as the combos you can get off of them. I've been labbing these a lot, and I've still to get them in a real match. I feel these will take Banjo players really far, if they know how to use them well. They may not seem like a lot at first, but then you realise they're partly responsible in knowing how to recover best, as well even getting a couple of kills off of them (sometimes it combos into Side B, and it also combos into Fair).
 
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Soyaccino

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
42
Switch FC
488651829403
They remind me a lot of piranha plant too.

They have quirky, heavy impact and clever moves BUT miss out on that little extra but of mobility that would otherwise push them up.

IMO the reason they’re better than plant though is the throw game and grenades.
 

Oz o:

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
214
They remind me a lot of piranha plant too.

They have quirky, heavy impact and clever moves BUT miss out on that little extra but of mobility that would otherwise push them up.

IMO the reason they’re better than plant though is the throw game and grenades.
Banjo is actually pretty mobile:
https://www.ssbwiki.com/dash
(#11 Dash speed, in between Ridley and Cloud)

I can confirm, as I move a lot with him (I'll just go with "him" since it's what sounds most natural to me). The point is, I haven't yet struggled because of his (lack of) mobility. Apparently his air speed is somewhat of the issue, but he has the extra jumps to somewhat make up for it. Banjo is just a nice combination of attributes, such as said run speed, being a fast faller as well as being as heavy as characters like Snake, Wario and R.O.B. It helps he has a strong kill throw, being most comparable to Zelda and Palutena's. I don't know what's been said about F-Smash, but it's probably among the better ones out there...easily, I'd say. It has pretty massive range, hits from above, relatively low cooldown. I've outranged Ike's Fair with it, once. I've literally beaten out swords by giving them the bird.

His frame data is apparently somewhat lacking, in paper. I haven't really struggled too much with that, yet. Some characters you just naturally try to get someone off of you with like a Fair, which isn't something Banjo can really do up close, but that's about it. Bair and Nair are deceptively good moves. They're just there when you need them, if that makes sense.
 
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Bobert

"...And His Music Was Electric"
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
Messages
568
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Switch FC
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B&K are pretty good I think. Just a very good mid range character in general. They have great disjointed poking tools in ftilt and dtilt, a terrifying zone breaker in Wonder Wing, a multitude of ways to mix up their recovery, a frame 9 OoS kill move, an acceptable grab game, a smaller hurtbox than most characters around their weight class(same weight as Snake and R.O.B), great run speed(11th), three jumps, REAR EGG, etc.. They just have a lot going for them in general. Their ledge trapping and edge guarding is also pretty strong because of Egg Firing and Rear Egg. Rear Egg can lead into some disgusting combos offstage and on the ledge, and Wonder Wing is basically instant death for anybody that doesn't snap the ledge. They aren't broken in any area though. They're definitely a jack of all, master of none.

Their lack of a proper safe anti air/air to air, weak initial dash and airspeed, strict auto cancel windows, and a somewhat low damage output combined with a bad combo game I feel hurts them a bit. Back air can work as an air to air, but it's extremely committal because of how long it takes for B&K to change direction in the air and it only auto cancels in a shorthop if its done instantly without fast falling. Their combos also mainly consist of only two to three hits, nearly all started by Rear Egg, but that move is amazing so it might not be that big of a deal.

I'd say they could pull a B tier at best, but they're no lower than C. I could be wrong as I thought Joker was only decent when he came out and never thought he would be considered a top 10 character. Banjo and Kazooie could end up being a lot better.

Edit: Added a few things I forgot to mention like them having a crazy OoS option in U-Smash.
 
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CosmicQuark

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 17, 2018
Messages
3,522
While I am one to believe tier lists aren't a reliable measure of characters since Ultimate is so well balanced there are no "bad characters", and I am by no means an expert given I'm a casual player who only sparingly lurks competitive player's streams, I think based on what pros are saying, they seem high mid tier/low high tier. As I suspected, they're an all around character, being a jack of all trades and master of none, a versatile character with a lot of weak points, leaning towards better than average but certainly not top tier. It suits them as it does their games--though, if they were faithfully adapted, they'd be broken, and I'm glad that's not the case with Banjo & Kazooie. A character doesn't have to be broken to be viable, as I feel like a lot of people were underwhelmed given they weren't broken, like Joker and Hero. I play super well with them, even though I'm **** at the game as a whole. And watching the tricks Tweek and Nairo have been able to pull off, they have a lot of potential, but with the caveat that being new means they could either be better or worse than people think at the moment. As for fun, S tier. What I wanted was a more fun Mario that can fly and shoot projectiles, and I got that.
 

dahuterschuter

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
444
Location
Canuck
I dunno mang. Feels like they control neutral decently against most good characters.

Saving all five Wonder Wing's for when the opponent is above 100% seems to be key to high tier placement. Optimal Banjo has guaranteed free kills.
 

Oz o:

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
214
I dunno mang. Feels like they control neutral decently against most good characters.

Saving all five Wonder Wing's for when the opponent is above 100% seems to be key to high tier placement. Optimal Banjo has guaranteed free kills.
In like the first few days I was actually killing ridiculously early with it. I pretty much only saved it for killing and the ocassional recovery. I see some players just throw it out a few times for random punishes, but I don't like staling it. I was consistently killing at around 60 in the first few days, and even as early as 30-40 a couple of times. A lot of the time you could just go for something like F or D-Smash and they can do the punishes with far less commitment.
 
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