Possible Zelda Buffs? [Mod]

[pixelarcane]

Hey Zelda forums! My name is Pixel, I'm a modder and I'm currently working on a little side project. I'm planning on making a bunch of balance changes for all the characters, as well as modifying the mechanics a bit (Dash Dancing, Crouch Cancelling, you know the stuff). It's not your typical balance mod though, as I'm trying to keep all the characters unique and not just make them super fast and turbo mode like some other modders.

I used to be a Zelda main, and so I thought I would start with this character since she deserves the attention. I've looked all over Smashboards and other parts of the internet, as well as taken into account some of my own personal thoughts, and I've compiled a list of possible changes that I want to make. I can't do all of them, because it would make her too powerful, so I want your help to determine what I should do, and even help me come up with new ideas.

Here's my current list of possible changes so far:

Green means it will be changed
Blue means it's considered
White means it's possible

Attributes
Weight Buff 85 -> 88/89
Run Speed 1.3 -> 1.47
Walk Speed 0.87 ->0.95
Air Speed 1.04 -> 1.1
Air Acceleration 0.055 -> 0.08

Jab
Startup 11 -> 6/7
Damage 11 -> 8
Change from Multi-Hit to Single Hit?

Ftilt
Fix Blind Spot
More Shield Stun/Shield Damage
Startup 12 -> 10
More KGB?

Utilt
Add hitbox to hit smaller opponents

Dtilt
Larger hitbox

Dash Attack - Rework
Becomes a low-percent combo tool
FAF 40 -> 34
Decreased BKB/KBG
Angle 50 -> 85 (Not 90 so it can possibly be DI'd)

Maybe 1-2 less Startup/End frames for U/Dtilt?

Usmash
Slightly larger hitbox to the side and above

Dsmash - Slight Rework
Larger hitboxes
Damage 12/10 -> 14/12
More KBG? 86/96 -> 90/100?
More Shield Stun
Less Endlag (FAF 38 ->35)
Hitbox lasts 3 frames instead of 2 (5-6 -> 5-7, 13-14 -> 13-15)

Grab
Startup/End reduced by 1/2 frames
Size Increase

FThrow - Rework
Less BKB/KBG
Lower angle
Slightly more damage

Bthrow
Increased KBG (Now kills)

Uthrow
Decreased BKB (will be able to land Utilt combos on fast fallers)
Increased KBG (Might kill, unsure yet)

Dthrow - Possible rework
Angle 100 -> 80
Now sends opponents in front
Slightly less BKB
Slightly more KBG

Nair
May actually nerf (only if Dthrow reworked)
-Damage 2.5/1.5 -> 2/1.3, 5 -> 4
-Remove beginning autocancel frames (1-3)

Uair
??????? No ideas, let me know if you have some

Dair
Remove Sour spot
Less KBG
Damage 16 -> 12
Frame 14 -> 12

Fair/Bair - Major Rework
Fair and Bair will no longer be the same move
One will stay the same, + slight KBG/Hitbox size
Other will receive a rework
-Much less Damage
-Much less KB
-Much less Landing Lag
-Will Autocancel
-Less End Lag
-Will still have Sweet/Sour spot
-Sweet will push away, Sour will combo

Nspecial
Increase Invincible frames 5-15 -> 4-18

Sspecial
Make it so you can act out immediately after
(It's not possible to remove freefall right now, so the best I can do is make it so you can jump out of it at the end)

Uspecial
Slightly more invincibility frames
Make it so you can act out immediately after
(See above)

Dspecial
More Shield Damage
More Damage


These are all the ideas I have. Unfortunately, putting all these together would make Zelda way too strong, so I can't. If I find a way to do so without making her too powerful, or the other characters end up becoming just as powerful, then I will add them all. But until then, don't count on it.
Anything that's coloured Green or Blue and doesn't have "Rework" next to it will probably happen regardless, unless it proves to be too powerful.

I won't be able to start working on this for a few days, so until then just let me know what ideas you may have.

 

[pixelarcane]

[Reserved for Changelog and other possible updates]

 

[Doomis]

I love this!

However, I feel like sharing my personal opinions on some of these suggestions. I'm not a Zelda expert but I have played like 6000+ matches with her so I must have some kind of experience I guess? xD

The attribute changes are great!

I personally like her jab as it is, maybe like 3 frames less startup would be nice but not more.

Her ftilt is currently good except for the blindspot. I you fix that, then it would not need more power.

The utilt/dtilt changes are nice.

The dashattack changes are really interesting, I think they would provide some more options when it comes to her combo game.

The usmash change is also good, but the dsmash changes are too much. She already has one of the fastest dsmashes in the game, and making it kill much earlier would be too good for being so quick.

The grab and throw changes are really nice, but let dthrow remain the same.

Nair and uair should remain the same. The changes to her dair are really good (as long as you keep the sparkly effect, haha)

The changes to her fair/bair are also really good, I think her bair should remain the same and her fair should have the changes you suggested.

All of the special changes are also nice.

Great job on compiling all of this, huge thumbs up from me! :D

 

[SM Mystic]

For Uair
I would make the hitbox .5 units bigger, just to make it slightly easier to get a hoo hah off, and give Uair some better autocancel frames.

For Nayru's Love
It doesn't really need more intan frames. It just needs to come out faster. A frame 2 Nayru's would be good with the FAF slightly reduced.

For Farore's Wind
The move itself just needs to be faster, and Zelda just needs to be able to move out of freefall faster, not be able to react immediately after.

For Fair/Bair
Why rework it to begin with? Just make the sweetspot size bigger, give it some more damage, and reduce the FAF of it slightly.
And make the autocancel frames better too.

For Nair
Don't change it. Just make it faster.

For Dthrow
Imo, Dthrow is fine as it is now. Doesn't need to be reworked.

For DSmash
DSmash doesn't really need shield stun, as it's just supposed to be a quick kick. With the FAF being at 35 according to your changes, it would seem a bit too OP to add shield stun to DSmash.

For Dair
I personally disagree with those changes. If anything just make the sweetspot bigger. Making it come out faster is nice, but removing the sour spot removes a chance for Zelda to reset someone.

For Uthrow
Those changes are nice. KBG increase would be good to make it kill.

For Dash Attack
No need to rework Dash Attack. Just reduce the FAF and it'll be fine.

For USmash
Larger hitboxes to the side won't do anything about the crouching characters below her. Make the first hitbox catch those opponents at her feet or something.

For Jab
DO NOT MAKE IT SINGLE HIT.
Damage reduction is required if you do make the move faster, so good on you for that.

For Ftilt
Good changes.

For Fthrow
No rework. Just increase the KBG slightly so that it can kill earlier.

For Phantom
Good Changes.

For Din's Fire
Make it so that it can't clank with other moves. That's one of the biggest flaws with Din's Fire.

 

[ZombieBran]

I agree that if you're going to give Dsmash all those buffs, a knockback buff would be overdoing it.
Bthrow could use a KB buff but making it Ness levels would be ridic...fine actually

Please do not damage nerf Nair, it's rare that all of it hits.

I wouldn't change Dair personally.

I like the idea of changing one lightning kick But the one that stays needs a buFF. Either slightly more range on the sweetspot or less pathetic sourspots.

Farore's doesn't need complete removal of endlag, but it needs some.

Phantom needs a rework to be an effective projectile. My dream buff for it would be for it to be storable but I don't think that's possible yet and it would be a huge change anyway.

Unfortunately, putting all these together would make Zelda way too strong, so I can't.

Let's be real, even all these changes wouldn't make Zelda top tier

 

[Floofzy-Kitten]

some suggestions:
Jab stays multihit

Farores wind only needs the invincibility frames to cover that reappearance vulnerability, what needs to be buffed is how soon she can move around in free fall after using it (it's very painful being so close to the ledge but the inability to influence your direction after using it makes you fall just short of it)

Din's Fire needs to be faster and come out quicker. The delay on the explosion could be delayed by a few seconds to make it like a floating mine.

Naryu's Love can have the special button held down to prolong the crystal and continue to reflect, exactly like fox's reflector except it times out (it won't deal damage after making the crystal stay) and make the reflector frames start earlier.

Removing D-Air sour spot will make it a weaker move, unlike most spikes, D-Air's sourspot causes downward knockback still.

F-Smash needs to have a better magnet effect, characters are still able to escape. It also needs to have something to prevent attacks from hitting zelda when she pulls someone in as characters with long disjoints can punish zelda (usually by accident) for using it when she pulls them in and their attack hits her, stopping the F-Smash.

Phantom Strike has 15% instead of 13% stamina and zelda can act immedietly after firing it to reflect the phantom. The move is virtually useless against someone with a reflector. Unfortunately, charging the phantom is useless. It doesn't matter how much shield damage or damage it deals, only For Glory scrubs take the shield hit. It's even more effective to... I don't know... JUMP OVER IT. That upward swing on the phantom is so pathetic if you just jump over it Zelda is vulnerable. Now Zelda has something to use against people trying to reflect it but I don't know what to do for the whole jumping over the phantom thing.

U-Tilt has less knockback. Reason: Her U-Tilt is subpar to most characters.

F-Tilt has it's blindspot removed. Sourspot combos and sweetspot has slightly more knockback (think of it like Marth's tipper)

Keep the sourspot on her F-Air. To buff this move effectively, increase sweetspot duration by a few frames and make the hitbox slightly larger.

U-Air should have a 1% hit box at her hands that starts quickly before the explosion. The hit has low knockback and knocks opponents into the explosion. U-Air is an already situational move and making it easier for it to land at all would be good.

Maybe you should get together with some other modders who buff the weaker characters in the game and sort of make a one-mod-fits-all sort of thing? Kinda like Project M except it won't be making the game like Melee, just buffing characters who aren't particuarly viable such as Lucas, Olimar and Ganondorf.

 

[pixelarcane]

Quick update: I've been putting this off a bit because every time I go back to it, everything just gets super difficult. First I made Zelda way too powerful, being able to kill at 70% just from a stray hit in neutral, then I made her even weaker than when I started, not being able to even get her hoo-hah. I'll be editing the changelog soon and I'll be taking it slowly and seeing how the character progresses.

If anyone would like to help me with testing, I'd really appreciate it. I haven't mained Zelda in a long time, so I don't know much of her metagame anymore, and having actual players help with testing would be really nice.

Side note: Everyone seems to not understand what I meant with the whole Nair thing. I was only gonna do that if I changed Dthrow, because I was thinking about making Dthrow send opponents in front of you, and being able to use Dthrow into a full set of front hit Nair is really powerful. I've decided against the Dthrow changes, so you don't need to worry about Nair. I may even buff it if I find it won't be too strong.

 

[Floofzy-Kitten]

Important Note: Zelda's air speed is actually not mediocre. Her air speed is actually around 10-12th place, so, I don't think it needs changing.

 

[BJN39]

Important Note: Zelda's air speed is actually not mediocre. Her air speed is actually around 10-12th place, so, I don't think it needs changing.

Just because it's good doesn't mean it could not be better for a character like Zelda. Sure, it doesn't need much more, but there is a limit design-wise to how much you could buff other stats, say, run speed, and Zelda traditionally has alright air speed, so why not let her have something more "uniquely" good?

Of course, her air speed being buffed a bit is probably in not way going to be "uniquely" good anyways.

In addition, we'd need to address numerous flaws with her aerials before she could every be an "air fighter"...