Positioning & Stage Control Volume 1

DFEAR

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
5,582
Location
:190:
serious thread btw. only jebus is allowed to troll this i will only view his posts as such. everyone else post as u plz.

anyway what i want to discuss amongst my fellow diddy mains is Positioning & Stage Control.
More or less the very foundation of our game.

i will start with basic neutral stages first, first being final d as its level structure isn't complex at all which will make the first thread easy to understand.


this is finald. the basic neutral stage. considered one of our strongest stages...what i wanna ask is why? we can prove this too. but ill explain that later...back to the point!

1.

key:
red-diddy
green- opponent
1- banana
2- banana
START!
The above picture illustrates the absolute beginning of every match for example.

what i want you guys to discuss is what makes diddy, the opponent, and the banana placement's position/location as a safe/dangerous choice in all the following pictures including the starting positioning (some pictures show the opponent/diddy on the ledge).

i wanna explore:
what options are available to you in these positions?
why would this be a safe/dangerous position?
who would be at an advantage and why?
if this position is safe, would you stay there? why would you move?
would this position be considered safe/dangerous if the opponent has the ability to read you?
what would you do in this position, what are you looking to gain from this position?

also if you have the ability and patience...include the psychology behind why players choose these positions and how one can easily shut them down
2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

8.

9.

10.

11.

12.

13.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

30

31

32

33

34

35

36

37




let's see how smart you are.

also i understand the options one has is infinite, but you can only choose one option as it is impossible to do two actions at once
 

FelixTrix

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Messages
410
Location
WA
you should letter or number each of the positions so we can actually relate to which picture we are writing about.

also...


WTF OVERLOAD
 

DFEAR

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
5,582
Location
:190:
just wanting to expand ur guys minds cuz most of you all limit urself to a linear playstyle and for some reason position urselves in like the WORST possible way which leads diddy to getting "gayed"...we can prevent this...

so once again...
i wanna explore:
what options are available to you in these positions?
why would this be a safe/dangerous position?
who would be at an advantage and why?
if this position is safe, would you stay there? why would you move?
would this position be considered safe/dangerous if the opponent has the ability to read you?
what would you do in this position, what are you looking to gain from this position?
 

Sails

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
561
Location
Southwick, MA
I'm going to cover image 1 and both if it were the start of the match and if it were not.

1.


Assuming it's the start of the match: Diddy here has three great choices each with flaws, the first being he can pull a banana which will be expected. The problem with this is, you're left open immediately and depending on the opponents speed and range they can corner you and cause issue. The other option is to also pull a banana, but reversed direction with or without jump so that when they predictable approach they have a falling banana to get through. This however can be easily caught/grabbed by the opponent giving them a free banana off the bat. The other great choice is immediately dashing towards the opponent and dash attacking/fairing. Chances are they won't expect it and can easily secure you early damage on them. This can be prefaced by holding crouch when the match starts and then running at them so they believe you're pulling a banana. The downside is that it needs to be a mixup and they might not approach you when the match starts. Diddy is somewhat at an advantage at the beginning of a match here, but it is not completely safe and can leave you punished. Metaknight is one to watch out for at the start for example, as most mains I've played will approach Diddy immediately for early damage. If your opponent has good reading ability, you should be safe here as you have enough time to react to their early maneuvers. Personally, the start of the match means a lot to me, so in the beginning of a set I will attempt a banana pull whichever way, and will try and stay in the area to provoke them in to falling for banana camping tricks. If I can set up camp immediately due to failed approach then I feel I have done my job in this position and may or may not approach depending on player/character. However, other matches in the set will often begin with dashing for the opponent for early damage from mindgames.

Assuming it's not the start of the match: Diddy is relatively safe here and should focus on setting up camp with pulling out his bananas and keeping them around him. [See previous paragraph for more detail] The diagram shows that neither of you have a banana, so you're likely in only subtle danger and should probably not stick around the ledges too long until you get some bananas. With both bananas you can approach well from this point if need be, so pulling those out as soon as possible is advised. Diddy is tipped in to favor in terms of advantages as not only can he be preparing bananas on the field, but he's out of harms way (unless they have a projectile) and can assess the situation. On the opposite side of the spectrum, he is also close to the edge and can be forced off stage quickly by an opponent with good reads. In this position I would definitely begin pulling out bananas, they're too large a part of Diddy's game to not have them.

Critique away!
 

DFEAR

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
5,582
Location
:190:
^exactly wut i want to see, but sails u do realize you said urself that plucking a banana is unsafe. why not expand ur options in the beginning of the match and mimic wut your opponent does to u.

ex. if ur opponent usually runs at u the very start of match, surprise him with u running at him (with read u can accomplish dash attack, grab, dtilt, sideb, etc.) creating a SAFE way to pluck your bananas WHILE having a solid position and being in a safe situation...only downside to this is if the opponent expects for u to expect him to dash at u. in this case...mindgames. if your opponent has a slower thinking process than you should have a bonus amount of time to pluck a banana while he overthinks his options.

to make an opponent question and/or limit his options grants opportunity for progress =D
 

Sails

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
561
Location
Southwick, MA
^exactly wut i want to see, but sails u do realize you said urself that plucking a banana is unsafe. why not expand ur options in the beginning of the match and mimic wut your opponent does to u.

ex. if ur opponent usually runs at u the very start of match, surprise him with u running at him (with read u can accomplish dash attack, grab, dtilt, sideb, etc.) creating a SAFE way to pluck your bananas WHILE having a solid position and being in a safe situation...only downside to this is if the opponent expects for u to expect him to dash at u. in this case...mindgames. if your opponent has a slower thinking process than you should have a bonus amount of time to pluck a banana while he overthinks his options.

to make an opponent question and/or limit his options grants opportunity for progress =D
Hmm, I don't mean to sound rude but did you read after my second sentence? >_>

"The other great choice is immediately dashing towards the opponent and dash attacking/fairing. Chances are they won't expect it and can easily secure you early damage on them. This can be prefaced by holding crouch when the match starts and then running at them so they believe you're pulling a banana."

I covered three options for Diddy explaining why each one is a great idea but also why each one can be dangerous.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're saying though?
 

DFEAR

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
5,582
Location
:190:
i read it o.o just wanted to see how u would incorporate the opponents mental state/psychology behind it.
 

Sails

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
561
Location
Southwick, MA
Addendum on opponent approaching:

Considering this position from the opponents view, imagine for a moment that they have less % than you. If they're a solid competitive player, they aren't going to do much approaching. Since Brawl is largely punishing approaches, they will want you to come to them at all times. Diddy easily has the best position here out of all characters in the game, because when you are losing you can stay here and take your time to set up your banana game and then approach. Of course, this isn't always the case and the opponent may come for you in anticipation of this, so this is a perfect time to use mindgames and general approach punishing against them. Hit them with a rising FAir or dash attack and run unless you have follow-up opportunities. If they space and read well regardless of you trying to take advantage of their approach, a good idea to keep in mind is to attempt getting by them to the other side of the stage and resetting the positioning if you still do not have bananas.

This position has too many possibilities and endless ideas to share about, it's quite daunting trying to pick out single aspects of this position. I still may have it wrong, is this what you were looking for DFEAR?
 

SaveMeJebus

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 29, 2010
Messages
4,371
you should make one where the red player and the green player are standing on opposite corners of the middle diamond and the Diddy player is holding a banana. I think that this situation really determines who the best overall player is. at that distance, it takes great reaction time and reading skill in order for you to come out on top against your opponent.
 

DFEAR

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
5,582
Location
:190:
you should make one where the red player and the green player are standing on opposite corners of the middle diamond and the Diddy player is holding a banana. I think that this situation really determines who the best overall player is. at that distance, it takes great reaction time and reading skill in order for you to come out on top against your opponent.
to further provide detailed discussion i want to ask you a simple question.

why,how, when, who to all of that.
 

SaveMeJebus

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 29, 2010
Messages
4,371
to further provide detailed discussion i want to ask you a simple question.

why,how, when, who to all of that.
At that distance and in that part of the stage, both characters can punish any punishable action that the other player does. In order to come out on top, you have to wait for your opponent to make a mistake. You also have to make sure that you punish him without getting punished yourself. In this situation, neither player is safe. Both players have only a fraction of a second to react to the actions that their opponent might do at any given time.

Aggressive options can can be punished by defensive options and vice-versa. It all comes down to your reaction time and how well you can read your opponent. At high level play where both players are trying to take over the center of the stage, you are going to encounter this situation more than any other. Your reaction time and ability to read your opponent will determine whether or not you are going to going to come out on top in this certain situation.
 

Sails

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
561
Location
Southwick, MA
I'm going to streamline this a bit so it's less intimidating to readers.

Position #2

What options are available to you in this position?
  • Getting a Banana in to your hand while standing behind the other one.
  • Shooting Peanuts for distance pressure.
  • Picking up the Banana and approaching.
  • Killing time.
Why would this be a safe/dangerous position?
  • Safe: If you are facing an opponent who must approach to initiate combat, then this is a safe position. Combined with Peanut spam, it becomes obvious how the opponent is going to approach (Straight on).
  • Dangerous: If you have high percent, are facing Meta Knight, or facing a character with projectiles/who outcamps you.
Who would be at an advantage and why?
  • Often this will be an advantage, because if the opponent needs to approach they have their ground options narrowed. They'll often try and dash attack through the Banana or jump over it, and this can be predictable and punishable depending on the opponent.
If this position is safe, would you stay there? Why would you move?
  • Attempting to goad the opponent in to approaching despite lead is advisable in this position. Punishment is viable because of linear approach options, so it's very wise to stay and wait for their move. Removing yourself from this position is necessary when you are losing and must retake the lead and the opponent won't approach.
Would this position be considered safe/dangerous if the opponent has the ability to read you?
  • Being read in this situation is dangerous because you can be quickly pushed off the edge, where Diddy never wants to be in many matchups. It can also lead to having your Banana used against you, so try not to be too stagnant with your mixups in this position.
What would you do in this position, what are you looking to gain from this position?
  • I would personally find myself mixing up all of the options from the first list, but would highly favor taking out a second Banana and camping if possible. If the opponent is aggressive, I'd shoot one or two Peanuts for some last ditch distant damage, and then play around their reaction to the Banana with punishes or picking it up and using it if they only approach part-way. This way I'm returning pressure and keeping them thinking instead of them stuck on the one "How do I get past this Banana" thought. It's an alright position to fool the opponent in to thinking they have you near the edge and can severely hurt you there, when the reality is the the playing field is mostly even in this state. This position is purely for spacing and small damage output. It's not a position I would find myself trying to get a kill from too often or purposely put myself in with the intention of using it aggressively. Too much can go wrong near the edge, so using this position as bait for hit and run damage on approach is what I would recommend.
 

Sails

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
561
Location
Southwick, MA
****ing love sails...needs moar posts imo
I'll pop in and write more when I'm in a theory crafting mood randomly, so we'll get more content but it'll probably be mostly from me. It certainly would be nice to have others contributing, but we're not exactly the most serious board :p I personally would love to see others opinions on spots because Diddy's positioning game is very important at high level play and this info can be a huge help to new players.
 

Twigz

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
164
Location
Da Beach!!
Hey, I don't mean to unnecessarily bump this thread, but I would love to see the diddy board ( sails ) give a nice detailed explanation for the various positions posted like u did for position #2 sails.

:phone:
 

Dre89

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 29, 2009
Messages
6,163
Location
Australia
NNID
Dre4789
Even though this thread was bumped, I have to say it's a very good thread. These are the kinda threads that help new Diddys out more than anything else.
 

Twigz

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
164
Location
Da Beach!!
Even though this thread was bumped, I have to say it's a very good thread. These are the kinda threads that help new Diddys out more than anything else.
Thank you for understanding :) i'm a fairly new diddy so this would really help me. I would love to see it completed.
 
Top Bottom