Pokemon Trainer Will Be Top Tier. Let's Talk About That.

[JakkPlaysGames]

So. Pokemon Trainer is back in SSBU. I feel like he will be top tier. There's so much potential with the new switching mechanics. Let's talk about it.

 

[Stickmanlolz]

So. Pokemon Trainer is back in SSBU. I feel like he will be top tier. There's so much potential with the new switching mechanics. Let's talk about it.

As long as all of them are at least mid tier individually, then I would tend to agree with that statement all depends on how much better Ivy is in this game.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

I don't see the character being bad though, assuming they'll manage to cover as many MUs as possible.

 

[Deleted member]

It really just depends on the individual tiering of the Pokemon themselves. I will say PT may be powerful in For Glory.

 

[Eskelsen]

I think the enhanced switching given to pokemon trainer is a huge plus, but that is hardly a good basis for thinking he will be top tier. At the very least he has "potential" like you said, but so does everything else.
The individual pokemon need to be good for the character as a whole to be rated highly imo.

 

[DaDavid]

Ivy still seems to be kind of bad, but, Squirtle seems so much better. Didn't see too much Charizard, or hear from people who played him, so I don't really know where he stands.

In my opinion, if Squirtle is as good as he looks and Charizard is around as good as he was in 4, then that can make up for Ivysaur's weaknesses. Biggest problem is that you can't switch straight from Squirtle to Charizard, so Ivysaur needs to have some sort of synergy with Squirtle combos.

 

[shrooby]

Squirtle will probably be good. Small, fast, and good frame data means we can probably expect him to at least be solid.
He was good in Brawl, but was held back by the fact that you couldn't keep using him and had to use the other two. And Ivysaur and Charizard were among the worst characters in Brawl.
If this is still the case in Ultimate, then it'll be like Melee Sheik: a good character without a down special for most intents and purposes. The three Mons could even be tiered individually in this case, unlike in Brawl where stamina forced them to be grouped together.

Buuuut, if this Charizard is basically Smash 4 Charizard, which he seems to be, then this won't be the case. At the very least we can probably expect Squirtle to be good and Charizard to be serviceable. Hopefully Ivysaur is serviceable too because it was my favorite of the three in Brawl.

The cool thing about switching mid-match is not only potentially making some character counter-picks less severe, but also that you can cover weaknesses and exemplify strengths mid-match.
I've seen people bring up switching to Charizard to recover, but think about also switching to Charizard to edgeguard with Flamethrower, which worked REALLY WELL against some characters in Smash 4. Win neutral and get someone offstage as Squirtle, and switch to Charizard just to edgeguard.
In general you might be able to abuse Charizard's good advantage state, without actually having to play neutral or disadvantage as Charizard.


...and Ivysaur is there too. (Please be good, Ivysaur )

 

[Makai Wars]

When you put it like that it seems like the deciding factor on the PT's usefulness all comes down to how not-terrible Ivysaur is. I can't help but imagine Squirtle will be the best, Ivysaur will be okay, and Charizard will only be out for niche situations. Ivy's problems in Brawl were bad normals, an awful recovery and taking extra knockback from fire attacks (which there were a ton of), but with the game being speedier, on top of Ivy getting another recovery option in directional airdodges and the possible removal of the silly type weakness, Ivysaur will at the very LEAST be better than his Brawl incarnation.

I personally adored using Ivysaur so I'm holding faith that he'll be a decent grounded character who can get grabs easily and has an excellent anti-air game.

 

[shrooby]

Since they realized the stamina mechanic was silly, I'd imagine they realized the type advantage mechanic was too. Ivy's recovery was buffed by virtue of edgehogging not existing, so it's not as bad. But other than that, we'll have to see how it plays out. (Though disjointed jab and dtilt with dash-canceling should at least be...not terrible.)

Pokemon Trainer will be useful so long as just one of the Pokemon is good (probably Squirtle) since you don't lose anything from not switching. However, Charizard and Squirtle should, like, in theory compliment each other. Hard to see where Ivysaur might fit in.
If, hypothetically, they were all similarly good, then I'd use Ivysaur for when I need disjoints, since one of Squirtle's weaknesses is its lack of range. Basically, most of my neutral-ing would involve Ivysaur instead of Squirtle in those cases, maybe. Having large disjoints is where it'll probably be able to compliment the other two, assuming it isn't a terrible character.
But even if Ivysaur is still bad, it's not as big a deal as in Brawl because you aren't punished for not using it. You just need to be able to find the time to switch off of it.

 

[Makai Wars]

I'd imagine Ivysaur would fit best when fighting scrappers like Mario, in that he can pretend his vines are swords and keep them out with well spaced backairs and Razor Leaf. If he's the grappler of the three that'd be excellent, something like Down Throw into Sweetspoted Vine Whip sounds delicious.
It's hard to wrap my head around how fast the PT can switch Pokemon out, as now it's possible to have Squirtle knock someone up into the air, jump after them, switch to Ivy in 1 second then land a meaty Ivy Uair, then possibly switch Ivy right back out. Even if Ivysaur is only good for one or two moves, that's still a huge step up from his Brawl incarnation which was just dead weight on the PT's team.

 

[Alsyght]

I never really played them back in Brawl because you couldn’t switch out and combo. I’m glad I saw that in this. Like, I slammed my hands on the table and screamed “TOP TIER” because the possibilities would be amazing! (Almost spilled my drink on my iPad doing that lmao)

What would be great though would be if we could press down-B then chose either left/right and up to choose Charizard or Ivysuar if you’re playing Squirtle and Vice versa. I imagine the character would be somewhat broken if that were the case how

 

[Spinosaurus]

Squirtle lost almost all its kill options from Brawl, that's where Ivy and Zard come in, and both look better. Ivy's problems in Brawl ultimately were her air mobility and tether recovery, which aren't an issue anymore (well, tether is, but that looks like a bug outright lol), and Zard's got nothing but buffs from 4 from the looks of it.

I'm fairly optimistic all three will be viable.

 

[Kairyu24]

Switching is fast enough as a dodge already, but I'm interested in tactical opportunities to switch with both sending the enemy flying or being send flying yourself.

It's unclear to me if a quick second switch is delayed, or just leaves you open. If it's the latter, double switching is possible in some situations. Squirtle is hopefully fast and strong enough to create such a opening. Single switch barely requires one, and maybe not at all vs a character with slower attacks. And you also regain the efficient switch after a set amount of time, which probably doesn't take that long.

If Squirtle manages to avoid being KOed himself too often, playing all 3 at opportunistic damage values seems very doable. Being revived allows for another switch at least, so both Ivysaur and Charizard can get back to him that way. In that sense, trying to solo Charizard for entire stocks seems the most difficult.

I liked the character back in Brawl, more then just solo Charizard, so I'm very interested to learning to play them a bit more decently this time around.

 

[ShadowSmasher]

Hey guys! I already introduced myself to the wolf boards all the way at number 44, but I wanted to say hello to my other future main’s board! I am new to smash boards and I hope that I can interact with the smash community more! I loved these characters in brawl and was sad that only charizard made it into smash 4. So yeah.

With that out of the way, I think that Pokémon trainer has a fair chance of high B to low A tier, if the developers increase hitstun a bit more, and if ivy and Squirtle get good combo throws. If they did, maybe Squirtle could do a throw and switch to ivy and do a sweetspot vine whip. That would be cool.

If they don’t do these things, I think they will be in low b or mid high c tier. Thoughts?

 

[Alsyght]

I’m thinking high mid tier at best if you average out their individual tiers. Squirtle can’t be pulling all that weight lol

 

[Homelessvagrant]

I'd argue he can. With the new switch mechanic, you should be able to maximize squirtleocity

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Thing I'm excited about is that switching is so quick you have the choice to play as one character (Mash Down B twice on respawn) or aim to be a Pokemon Master and wield all 3 of them.

 

[Homelessvagrant]

Yes, a true pokemon master knows the best option is to stick with only one main poke throughout your adventure and curse under your breathe when you get to the elite four.

 

[Masonomace]

It's not hard to admit something like that OP. PT was severely hindered by four factors:

• Ivysaur (ledge and flame moves)
• Stamina
• Fatigue
• Forced laggy switching

EDIT: Ledges apparently resemble closely to smash 4 yeah? Easy, ivy isn't a problem.
Stamina fatigue and forced laggy switching? ALL GONE LETS CLIMB TO THE TOP BABY.

 

[Crawfish]

charizard will be buffed on the basis that all aerial landing lag has been reduced as well as jump crouch time. so that's an improvement right? he still has back throw to fair combo. so that's one thing.

squirtle looks amazing and fun! but i'm sure he's lacking in kill power to make up for his speed. which is fine because smash 4 sheik is a thing. also you can trump him out of his shell, so that sucks.

am i wrong in thinking that ivysuar doesn't look terrible at all? he's got actual disjointed attacks(vinewhip moves) which is always a plus for a character. a projectile(this with vines gives him good spacing powers), decent kill power, vine recovery right? and his moves look somewhat combo friendly. where is his problem?

 

[Spinosaurus]

Ivysaur absolutely won't be terrible lol. Her biggest problem has been addressed, and now she's got even better.

 

[Masonomace]

No Stamina/Fatigue with a generally better Razor Leaf with what appears to have less endlag means PT has good, healthy zoning game. She won't be terrible and I love the realization of that so much.

 

[MERPIS]

Did bullet seed get buffed in any way? I mean its not that important of a move but its one of my favorite moves of his

 

[Spinosaurus]

Did bullet seed get buffed in any way? I mean its not that important of a move but its one of my favorite moves of his

It got significantly nerfed, which makes sense since it was pretty broken before.

 

[MERPIS]

It got significantly nerfed, which makes sense since it was pretty broken before.

how

 

[Spinosaurus]

how

It was a frame 4 move that hit both sides, with 1-3f invincibility that reliably did 30% at least. You'd get punished for it on hit usually but the damage you get out of it was oh so worth it.

It's frame 7 now, doesn't have invincibility it looks like and doesn't deal the same amount of damage.

 

[MERPIS]

It was a frame 4 move that hit both sides, with 1-3f invincibility that reliably did 30% at least. You'd get punished for it on hit usually but the damage you get out of it was oh so worth it.

It's frame 7 now, doesn't have invincibility it looks like and doesn't deal the same amount of damage.

It has a finisher now which makes it much safer on hit, and its still a decent anti air at least

 

[jjh2]

if your opponent cant adapt quickly enough then you can just call it a game if you keep switching your own playstyles. will defiantly take alot of work to learn how to play PT but itd be worth it if you learn every pokemon

 

[Crawfish]

thank goodness bulletseed has a finisher now. the lamest move in any smash game ever was brawl bullet seed

 

[Spinosaurus]

It was busted and fun. Now it's boring. :[

 

[MERPIS]

It was busted and fun. Now it's boring. :[

ye but its at least a semi-competent anti air now, if its range is anything like brawl then nothing will be able to beat it out unless the move has super armor

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Since they realized the stamina mechanic was silly, I'd imagine they realized the type advantage mechanic was too. Ivy's recovery was buffed by virtue of edgehogging not existing, so it's not as bad. But other than that, we'll have to see how it plays out. (Though disjointed jab and dtilt with dash-canceling should at least be...not terrible.)

Pokemon Trainer will be useful so long as just one of the Pokemon is good (probably Squirtle) since you don't lose anything from not switching. However, Charizard and Squirtle should, like, in theory compliment each other. Hard to see where Ivysaur might fit in.
If, hypothetically, they were all similarly good, then I'd use Ivysaur for when I need disjoints, since one of Squirtle's weaknesses is its lack of range. Basically, most of my neutral-ing would involve Ivysaur instead of Squirtle in those cases, maybe. Having large disjoints is where it'll probably be able to compliment the other two, assuming it isn't a terrible character.
But even if Ivysaur is still bad, it's not as big a deal as in Brawl because you aren't punished for not using it. You just need to be able to find the time to switch off of it.

You should make a thread about ZeRo discussing Pokemon Trainer. That way we can all talk about Pokemon Trainer upon further analysis...

 

[MERPIS]

When zero used ivysaur he made him look amazing

 

[1FC0]

I like that Ivysaur can now aim his Razor Leaf instead of it being random.

 

[MERPIS]

I like that Ivysaur can now aim his Razor Leaf instead of it being random.

he can

 

[1FC0]

he can

I believe I heard somewhere that he can.

 

[Crawfish]

he can

he definitely can

 

[NylaTheWolf]

I just hope he is separated into the 3 Pokemon on the tier list.

 

[chaostails7]

I just hope he is separated into the 3 Pokemon on the tier list.

It's possible that the three pokes will have their own slots in ADDITION to PT's (though Brawl's didn't do this, so don't get your hopes up), but I find it very unlikely that PT won't have their own slot, particularly if they really are near the top.

 

[Garteam]

This is my basic take on things:
-All of the major flaws inherent to the Trainer (weaknesses, stamina, an obnoxiously long change time) are no longer issues, so at the very least Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard aren't inherently handicapped.
-Squirtle is looking to the best of the group. High speed and good frame data basically guarantee that Squirtle will be at very least decent. It looks like his main flaw is kill power and an air game that doesn't seem to be quite as good as his ground game, so he may struggle against characters which have a stronger aerial presence (such as Sheik or maybe Falco, if he isn't slow as he was in Smash 4).
-Ivysaur is also looking pretty good, simply because she seems to have strong matchups against aerial characters. Her strong anti-airs and decent looking aerials seems to make her strong specifically against characters who would take advantage of Squirtle's flaws. If she's as good an answer to Squirtle's counterpicks as I think she'll be, then Pokemon Trainer's viability will go through the roof. If not, then Pokemon Trainer's tier placement will probably just be whatever Squirtle's is.
-Charizard is a niche option, but not with benefits. Mainly, he still seems to have a pretty good recovery, with Flare Blitz giving him amazing horizontal momentum and Fly helping his otherwise weak jumps. This could pair well with Ivysaur, who seems to have a recovery that is (while better than the dumpster fire that is her Brawl recovery) subpar and somewhat predictable. Even then, Charizard may have the same gameplan he did in Smash 4, fishing for early KOs with a good grab game and some strong edge-guarding tools in spite of his flaws.