Pokemon Trainer Preliminary Frame Data

Amazing Ampharos

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#1
I noticed this didn't seem to be out there anywhere obvious/public, and I didn't like that so I gathered this in training mode. I only mostly did hits on frames, I didn't fool with Pokemon Change timing at all, and of course all my data is in Smash standard format (meaning it's the frame it hits on, not the number of frames of start-up like you'd see reading SF frame data). I'm sure better frame data will be available later, but this should be useful right now. Also, while this may not be standard in other people's frame data to include, "charge release" means the frame you hit on after releasing a held smash which is always faster than the pure start-up of a smash but how much faster is highly variable move to move (for PT, you will notice Ivysaur fsmash hits VERY fast after charge release while Charizard dsmash gets only one lousy frame of benefit):

Squirtle:

Jab: 2
Ftilt: 5
Utilt: 5
Dtilt: 8
Dash Attack: 8
Fsmash: 20
Fsmash Charge Release: 15
Usmash: 19
Usmash Charge Release: 14
Dsmash: 18
Dsmash (hitting behind): 24
Dsmash Charge Release: 12

Nair: 4
Fair: 5
Bair: 5
Uair: 5
Dair: 6

Standing Grab: 6
Running Grab: 8
Pivot Grab: 8

Water Gun takes a little over 1 second to charge fully (somewhere in the neighborhood of 64 frames) and begins pushing when released at f24 or f25, hard to tell with no hit effects.
Withdraw: 24
Waterfall: 9

Ivysaur:

Jab: 7
Ftilt: 10
Utilt: 7
Dtilt: 4
Dash Attack: 4
Fsmash: 15
Fsmash Charge Release: 6
Usmash: 26
Usmash Charge Release: 19
Dsmash: 13
Dsmash Charge Release: 7

Nair: 7
Fair: 14
Bair: 7
Uair: 12
Dair: 11

Standing Grab: 13
Running Grab: 13
Pivot Grab: 13

Bullet Seed: 7
Razor Leaf: 22
Vine Whip: 15 (doesn't hit its whole range on the first frame, be careful)

Charizard:

Jab: 4
Ftilt: 12
Utilt: 9
Dtilt: 9
Dash Attack: 10
Fsmash: 22
Fsmash Charge Release: 7
Usmash: 6
Usmash Charge Release: 4
Dsmash: 14
Dsmash Charge Release: 13

Nair: 8 (hits above/behind Charizard; I can hit a grounded Bowser with this out of a SH at f13 on the earliest)
Fair: 8 (hits kinda high again; even Bowser inconsistently sometimes gets hit on f9 on the ground)
Bair: 14
Uair: 12
Dair: 18

Standing Grab: 8
Running Grab: 11
Pivot Grab: 11

Flamethrower: 20
Flare Blitz: 23
Fly: 9 (Super Armor from f4 lasting at least through f8, clashes make it hard to tell if it extends beyond that)

Basic takeaways:

Your best OoS with Squirtle is SH nair which will hit on f7 and is faster and safer than Waterfall (f9). In fact, literally every one of your aerials buffered out of a SH is at least as good as Waterfall in terms of hit speed.
Ivysaur's best OoS is tied between SH nair and SH bair both hitting on f10 and pretty cleanly outspeeding a shield grab. You can decided based on the spacing which you'd prefer.
Charizard's fastest OoS is usmash at f6, but if you are going for an OoS to beat an attack instead of a grab, the f4 armor on Fly might be preferred. It is worth noting that very few characters have the ability to act OoS at the incredibly high speed Charizard can.

To explain OoS frame data in general... After blocking something and shieldstun ends, you have a 4f delay before you can start up a grab but no delay before you can jump (which includes the ability to up-B or up smash). Shield drop is otherwise pretty long (11 frames!) so shield drop jab or whatever is never going to be competitive in terms of speed on any character. Jump squat is 3 frames so add 3 to any aerial that can plausibly hit a grounded opponent for the timing to do OoS (though for Charizard nair/fair this will often not work out due to how high they hit, especially a problem with nair) and add four to standing grab for that speed value.

Pretty much Squirtle's entire kit outside of smashes/specials is ludicrously fast. This may be the fastest average speed of any character.
Ivysaur is one of those characters where dtilt is your fastest grounded move. In scramble situations, this is really important to know since your dtilt is jab speed but your jab is tilt speed.
Charging fsmash with Ivysaur and Charizard has the potential to be highly fraudulent due to the very fast charge releases.
You can probably find other gems in the data; this is just what I took away.
 

Masonomace

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Masonomace
#2
THANK YOU SO MUCH AA!

Also, what do you think about the idea of sh bullet seed OoS? I am usually a lab monster but due to not owning the game I'm not confident in theorycraft. Would the rising seed knock-up work or not because it's ground-target only?
 

Amazing Ampharos

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#3
THANK YOU SO MUCH AA!

Also, what do you think about the idea of sh bullet seed OoS? I am usually a lab monster but due to not owning the game I'm not confident in theorycraft. Would the rising seed knock-up work or not because it's ground-target only?
I honestly never considered the possibility, but indeed it is equal in speed to Ivysaur's other options. I toyed with the input, and it's a lot harder than the other options but doable. If you input special on the same frame as jump or before, it won't come out. You need to hit special during your three jumpsquat frames, and likewise during those three frames you must release jump as it won't work if you full hop (at least against a short opponent; I tested it against a jabbing Squirtle). It doesn't really matter if you hold shield the entire time or not, but of course, hitting a 3f window to release jump and hit special based on the variable timing of the opponent's shieldstun on you may be harder in most circumstances than just parrying and doing grounded Bullet Seed if that's what you want to hit with so just keep in mind that using this only really makes sense if the opponent's actions are somehow very hard to parry but you still can easily react to precisely when shieldstun will end. It could be good tech and the math works on it though so it's definitely an interesting possibility.
 
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