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Pokemon Trainer Meta Game?

Lamsauce

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 8, 2017
Messages
11
Location
California
What do you guys speculate regarding PT's meta game? This is based off of some ideas I've read and felt while playing the demo myself. (This is my first post/got into competitive a bit earlier this year, so correct me if some of my speculation is extremely inaccurate).

:007: : Kind of feels like Mario. Really small and really fast. I feel that Squirtle can lead to a lot of combo potential to be honest. He has great air speed, so that could maybe lead to some strings. I heard his ground speed is slower than Ivysaur's though. As a starter for neutral, he'd be pretty good in terms of "aggressive" playstyle. Shifting from Charizard to Squirtle will lead to a very sudden shift in neutral for the opponent. As a light character, he can be launched into the blast zone easier than Ivysaur or Charizard of course. Although, having a light, small character like Squirtle in PT's roster helps with match up issues. Like if Charizard were to get juggled/combo'd due to his heaviness, you can switch to Squirtle to avoid the combos. Start off with Squirtle/Ivysaur to avoid being screwed for being a heavy. Switch to Charizard when you're at a high enough percentage to not get combo'd and get a harder/KO hit on your opponent.

:002:: Can tether ledge with vine whip. Used to not be great in Brawl, and can probably still lead to some SD's. However, Ivysaur's neutral game is very good. Razor leaf can zone people out. Short hop>Nair is has a pretty good hitbox size and lasts a good amount of frames, so it can catch your opponent pretty well, kind of like Mewtwo's nair. Ivysaur might have the best neutral game out of PT's roster. He's got range, and deals a good amount of damage from his attacks. Ivysaurs long grab gives the roster a safe, ranged grab. Unless you're punished for missing your grab. I watched a video where Ivysaur grabbed a Ryu charging up his Focus Punch. The grab worked from a safe distance, and can gives you the advantage of punishing the Ryu. I heard Ivysaur's edgeguard is good but I'm not sure what the meta is behind that.

:006:: I'd say he's better than he was in Smash 4. He's faster, just like most characters in the SSBU roster. He's lost his rock smash (rip super armor), but the addition of two different Pokemon is a good trade. I believe Charizard's short hop nair > autocancel still works. That allows a safe nair and an immediate input for your next move. Charizard can still use his flamethrower to edgeguard. I'm not sure if it'll screw over Clouds as well as they did before though, or whoever else didn't have snap onto ledge recoveries. Speaking of recoveries, Charizard has the best recoveries in the PT roster. Since Ivysaur's recovery is his vine whip tether, you can switch to Charizard to extend your recovery further. Charizard is the heavy hitter, and I like to consider him the punisher. He can take a stock easily on reads and a charged smash attack.


Overall: Squirtle air mobility/lightweight to avoid combos. Ivysaur for edgeguarding/neutral. Charizard for hard hits/punishes/recovery. Switching pokemon replenishes your jumps, I don't think completely but they add at least one extra jump I think. I'm not sure since Charizard has 3 total. The switch to the next Pokemon is about 38 frames I think. It is possible for opponents to react to you switching, and can punish you. However, it is not a move meant to be spammed. It can work as an air dodge/spot dodge in a way, but it's shouldn't be the only dodge move you have. If air switch > air dodge is possible, that's a really good extension in intangibility. I'm not sure if that works though. Having all three characters on your side leads to fast paced adaptability. Since this neutral is the ability to adapt to the opponent's playstyle, PT makes it harder with the changing neutral's/fighter pace and moveset. You're pretty much set if they can't adapt fast enough. Individually these Pokemon probably wouldn't make top tier, but combined, they cover each others' flaws. This makes them really likely to be a top tier character in Ultimate.

So that's my speculation on PT meta game in Ultimate. I'm hoping this contributes to some ideas on Pokemon Trainer's meta, and helps out people like me hoping to main them.
 
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Nebunera

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 25, 2018
Messages
169
Location
United States
Ivysaur: Probably the best one Meta wise. Has a lot of tools and can possibly redeem itself to many situations out there.

Squirtle: My personal favorite, I think he works best at low percent or beginning of a match. Fast, good offensive attacks and good recovery (the others have good recovery too but Squirtle does it the fastest).

Charizard: Good for comeback and high percentage survival (considering it is a heavyweight), and has some risk-reward components to it.

This is probably how I would use the three if I wasn't strictly playing one.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,887
Location
Colorado
I'm interested in the switch meta. Swapping pokemon at ideal times could make up for their weaknesses. Charizard's in the air above the stage>switch to Squirtle to land. Ivy's offstage>switch to Char to recover. Squirt is somehow worse than Ivy>switch (it could happen, right?).

Individually, Squirt looks pretty good all around. Ivy doesn't have the reach she had in brawl but might be good at racking up damage. Charizard has good late game survivability and KO potential.
 

Anuran

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 17, 2014
Messages
183
Location
Cleveland, OH
As a starter for neutral
I believe the proper pokemon terminology is a "lead" :p

I am thinking optimal lead is probably going to differ between matchups between :squirtle:/:ivysaur: but likely :charizard: neutral with never be optimal outside of late-game situations/recovery.
 

Lamsauce

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 8, 2017
Messages
11
Location
California
I believe the proper pokemon terminology is a "lead" :p

I am thinking optimal lead is probably going to differ between matchups between :squirtle:/:ivysaur: but likely :charizard: neutral with never be optimal outside of late-game situations/recovery.
OH is that what they're called?! I've played Pokemon games for 16 years and I just never learned the terminology. Thanks for the info!

Yeah, looking at more gameplay, Squirtle seems to be good in neutral for some quick combos (perhaps extremely viable against heavies?) and Ivysaur can maintain a more balanced neutral (maybe have an advantage over grapplers as well since she can zone out). I love Charizard but yeah, Charizard + Neutral = bodybag :crying:


I'm interested in the switch meta. Swapping pokemon at ideal times could make up for their weaknesses. Charizard's in the air above the stage>switch to Squirtle to land. Ivy's offstage>switch to Char to recover. Squirt is somehow worse than Ivy>switch (it could happen, right?).

Individually, Squirt looks pretty good all around. Ivy doesn't have the reach she had in brawl but might be good at racking up damage. Charizard has good late game survivability and KO potential.
I'm loving the idea of the switch meta the more I think about it! The combo potential, the mix ups, the sudden change in neutral, and recovery mix ups. Charizard definitely has the best recovery out of the three. I think, if Ivysaur's tether misses, if you react fast enough and switch to Charizard, you can still make it with fly. I don't know if the frames allow it though, usually I see people SD when tether misses.
 
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WingedKnight

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 16, 2007
Messages
555
Location
USA
I'm very curious to see how Pokemon Trainer performs on the competitive scene this time around. It's interesting that many of the first impression "tier lists" I've seen rank the different Pokemon separately. I suppose that helps to give an idea of their overall power levels, but it's important to remember that effectively using all of the available options is the optimal playstyle. As others have mentioned, a fighter that can switch between multiple characters with different roles and archetypes will always be at least a little bit better than the best of those characters. Even if two out of three were dead weight, the fighter as a whole wouldn't be any worse than the lone effective option because the optimal strategy would be to stick to playing that character. As it is, Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard all look like they complement one another well. Time will tell how "strong" each of the Pokemon is individually in terms of matchups, but I have faith that the Trainer's flexibility and versatility is going to be a major selling point.

Charizard picked up a number of nice changes since Smash 4, and even if its own comparative strength hasn't shifted much relative to the rest of the roster it brings great options to its team. It's my favorite of the three Pokemon, but I definitely expect to be using primarily Squirtle or Ivysaur depending on whether I need a combo-oriented speedster or a disjointed zoner for a particular matchup. Zard will see a lot of play when it's time to KO or avoid being KO'd, due to its weight, recovery, and powerful kill options. I already miss Rock Smash, but being able to switch to Squirtle with the speed of a spot dodge is a much better way to get out of danger or reset the neutral. I do like how the order of switching allows you to get the Pokemon you most need right away in certain tight spots like recovering (Ivysaur to Charizard) or escaping (Charizard to Squirtle).
 
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