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Pokemon Trainer in the current meta

Adamonado

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
Messages
27
I'm surprised there isn't a discussion about Pokemon Trainer's current place in the meta yet. As of right now we got Pandarian, Wishes, and Ned representing the character pretty well but in general the character has not quite broken out yet. Optimizing the character means mastering all three characters and knowing when to use which and using them all in tandem, making the character have one of the highest skill caps in the game. I think as of right now Pokemon Trainer is a borderline top tier and the character is only going to move up as the meta progresses due to the incredible variety of gameplay options he/she has. I'd like to establish this thread as a place to talk about the meta's progression around the character and the future of the the character's place in the meta.
 

Teeb147

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
10,624
I'm surprised there isn't a discussion about Pokemon Trainer's current place in the meta yet. As of right now we got Pandarian, Wishes, and Ned representing the character pretty well but in general the character has not quite broken out yet. Optimizing the character means mastering all three characters and knowing when to use which and using them all in tandem, making the character have one of the highest skill caps in the game. I think as of right now Pokemon Trainer is a borderline top tier and the character is only going to move up as the meta progresses due to the incredible variety of gameplay options he/she has. I'd like to establish this thread as a place to talk about the meta's progression around the character and the future of the the character's place in the meta.
Ivysaur is the best of them and can handle most situations. (except some cases of recovering)
Switching is mostly good for the quick invulnerability. Other than that most combos are swithing into ivysaur, lol.

I kinda hope they nerf ivy a little bit (up-air at least, and maybe down air) and buff squirtle and charizard. So that the meta youre talking about could have more to it.
 
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ZephyrZ

But.....DRAGONS
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Ivysaur is the best of them and can handle most situations. (except some cases of recovering)
Switching is mostly good for the quick invulnerability. Other than that most combos are swithing into ivysaur, lol.

I kinda hope they nerf ivy a little bit (up-air at least, and maybe down air) and buff squirtle and charizard. So that the meta youre talking about could have more to it.
Ivysaur had a poor disadvantage state (Bair is his only good aerial for landing with, and it only his behind them), has a hard time approaching characters who can outcamp razor leaf, and struggles hard in close quarters against zonebreakers and has a worse then average OoS game. Ivy's grab is rewarding but is also very slow and hard to land.

The character has tons weaknesses that Squirtle and Charizard help cover. It's not just recovery.
 
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Adamonado

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
Messages
27
Ivysaur had a poor disadvantage state (Bair is his only good aerial for landing with, and it only his behind them), has a hard time approaching characters who can outcamp razor leaf, and struggles hard in close quarters against zonebreakers and has a worse then average OoS game. Ivy's grab is rewarding but is also very slow and hard to land.

The character has tons weaknesses that Squirtle and Charizard help cover. It's not just recovery.
Agreed. A lot of people complain and ask for Ivy nerfs (specifically on up air and dair) but they also overlook the character's many flaws. As of right now, I'd say that Ivysaur is the best of the three and is complemented by the other two, i.e., your main striking force is with Ivy but there are certain mu's and scenarios where the other two excel over her. Personally, I also have a lot of faith in Squirtle, which is especially good since he succeeds where Ivysaur fails (like in mu's against really campy and rushdown characters). I think Zard has his uses but unfortunately cannot accomplish much on his own :( let's hope he gets some love in future patches.
 

Teeb147

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
10,624
Ivysaur had a poor disadvantage state (Bair is his only good aerial for landing with, and it only his behind them), has a hard time approaching characters who can outcamp razor leaf, and struggles hard in close quarters against zonebreakers and has a worse then average OoS game. Ivy's grab is rewarding but is also very slow and hard to land.

The character has tons weaknesses that Squirtle and Charizard help cover. It's not just recovery.
Fair and Nair are also super good if you space well. Nair out of shield is very good and isn't that much more punishable than squirtle's moves. Squirtle doesnt have enough mobility right now to be safer than ivy. And bair is just superior to almost any other aerial, can use it a lot. Razor leaf is just one of the best projectiles and the mobility ivy has in the air with it just really good if you know when to use it. It's not meant to camp out everyone by itself, which is why you retreat back air (tho the other moves are good too). Grab is actually really fast for a tether one, and it hasnt felt bad to use like yoshi's or zero suit's.

Ivy is better by far, especially because of up-air and vinewhip. I wouldn't nerf the whip, i think it's pretty fun to catch people with it, but up-air and down air should be nerfed so that ivy can't do everything by itself, charizard should be better for ko'ing and that's just not the case right now. If they increased squirtle's mobility then it would be best for fast and safe quick attacks and to combo, whereas right now ivy is the best to combo with. If they buffed zard a bit, including maybe bring the auto-cancel for fair, then it would actually make sense to switch to zard for ko'ing and you'd have the usual disadvantages but at least have a bit more safe ko options.
 
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ZephyrZ

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My point isn't that Squirtle and Charizard are better then Ivy, it's that they're better enough at certain things that they aren't redundant. Top Pokemon Trainers tend to favor Ivysaur but they still use Squirtle and Charizard to certain degrees. There are even certain match ups like Fox where Charizard does great.
Fair and Nair are also super good if you space well.
Fair is good in neutral, but it's slow enough that it's hard to cover Ivysaur's landing and Nair is punishable on hit if you land during it. This leaves Ivysaur with a slight weakness to frontal attacks and a huge one to attacks from underneath while landing.

Fair is especially too slow to be used OoS. Nair and Bair are okay but they're still frame 6 (9 when factoring in jump squat), which while not slow aren't amazing OoS. Squirtle's got a frame 4 Nair, frame 5 Fair and Bair and much better air mobility to punish with. Charizard is the real champ here with a frame 6 Up Smash and frame 4 armor on Fly.
Squirtle doesnt have enough mobility right now to be safer than ivy.
Squirtle doesn't have raw movement speed, but has the 8th best aerial acceleration in the game. He's around Pikachu-level when it comes to overall mobility, which is good enough to get the job done with his small body. His frame data is superior to Ivy which makes him better at dealing with zonebreakers who are able to get into Ivysaur's space.
Razor leaf is just one of the best projectiles and the mobility ivy has in the air with it just really good if you know when to use it. It's not meant to camp out everyone by itself, which is why you retreat back air (tho the other moves are good too).
Agreed, Back Air is also just really safe on shield if spaced well.
Grab is actually really fast for a tether one, and it hasnt felt bad to use like yoshi's or zero suit's.
It's still pales in comparison to Squirtle's and Charizard's. It can't be used out of shield, and it's much easier to be interrupted. It's a much bigger commitment.
I wouldn't nerf the whip, i think it's pretty fun to catch people with it, but up-air and down air should be nerfed so that ivy can't do everything by itself, charizard should be better for ko'ing and that's just not the case right now.
Yeah Up Air is probably PT's best kill move right now, but in all fairness it can only really kill opponents above Ivysaur's head. It's harder to kill opponents who have strong disadvantage with. None of Charizard's KO moves are superior to Ivysaur's Up Air, but they're more varied so Charizard can kill in more situations. Up Smash kills out of shield, Bair and Fair kill in neutral or advantage, F-tilt kills nair the ledge, Flare Blitz punishes predictable movement, ect.
If they increased squirtle's mobility then it would be best for fast and safe quick attacks and to combo, whereas right now ivy is the best to combo with.
Blatantly untrue. Squirtle's combos are far superior. His grab is much faster and can be tomahawked and leads into longer, higher damaging strings. On top of that, his Fair can combo into grab. Dash Attack also leads into long combos. And F-tilt. High Level PTs almost always start as Squirtle. Ivysaur's grab is much harder to get without conditioning the opponent first and when you do it still doesn't do as much damage as Squirtles.

And none of your points address the fact that Ivysaur hates being backed into a corner and forced into close quarters situations. Squirtle has amazing frame data (frame 2 Jab, frame 4 nair) for when he needs a fast "get off me" option and Charizard has an great OoS game as I mentioned earlier.


Just watch any high level Pokemon Trainer player. A lot of them don't use Charizard as much depending on the match up (they're slowly starting to use him more though), but they do still use the whole team. If Ivysaur is so godly compared to the other two, while aren't they using the "optimal" strategy of just sticking with them the entire match except when they need to recover?

I'll take Zard buffs and slight Ivysaur nerfs if they come, but I don't think they're necessary for the PT meta to progress. It's been progressing fine as is. I think Squirtle is kind of in that sweetspot though where he's good but not too good, there's not much I really want for him.
 
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Teeb147

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
10,624
My point isn't that Squirtle and Charizard are better then Ivy, it's that they're better enough at certain things that they aren't redundant. Top Pokemon Trainers tend to favor Ivysaur but they still use Squirtle and Charizard to certain degrees. There are even certain match ups like Fox where Charizard does great.

Fair is good in neutral, but it's slow enough that it's hard to cover Ivysaur's landing and Nair is punishable on hit if you land during it. This leaves Ivysaur with a slight weakness to frontal attacks and a huge one to attacks from underneath while landing.

Fair is especially too slow to be used OoS. Nair and Bair are okay but they're still frame 6 (9 when factoring in jump squat), which while not slow aren't amazing OoS. Squirtle's got a frame 4 Nair, frame 5 Fair and Bair and much better air mobility to punish with. Charizard is the real champ here with a frame 6 Up Smash and frame 4 armor on Fly.

Squirtle doesn't have raw movement speed, but has the 8th best aerial acceleration in the game. He's around Pikachu-level when it comes to overall mobility, which is good enough to get the job done with his small body. His frame data is superior to Ivy which makes him better at dealing with zonebreakers who are able to get into Ivysaur's space.

Agreed, Back Air is also just really safe on shield if spaced well.

It's still pales in comparison to Squirtle's and Charizard's. It can't be used out of shield, and it's much easier to be interrupted. It's a much bigger commitment.

Yeah Up Air is probably PT's best kill move right now, but in all fairness it can only really kill opponents above Ivysaur's head. It's harder to kill opponents who have strong disadvantage with. None of Charizard's KO moves are superior to Ivysaur's Up Air, but they're more varied so Charizard can kill in more situations. Up Smash kills out of shield, Bair and Fair kill in neutral or advantage, F-tilt kills nair the ledge, Flare Blitz punishes predictable movement, ect.
Blatantly untrue. Squirtle's combos are far superior. His grab is much faster and can be tomahawked and leads into longer, higher damaging strings. On top of that, his Fair can combo into grab. Dash Attack also leads into long combos. And F-tilt. High Level PTs almost always start as Squirtle. Ivysaur's grab is much harder to get without conditioning the opponent first and when you do it still doesn't do as much damage as Squirtles.

And none of your points address the fact that Ivysaur hates being backed into a corner and forced into close quarters situations. Squirtle has amazing frame data (frame 2 Jab, frame 4 nair) for when he needs a fast "get off me" option and Charizard has an great OoS game as I mentioned earlier.


Just watch any high level Pokemon Trainer player. A lot of them don't use Charizard as much depending on the match up (they're slowly starting to use him more though), but they do still use the whole team. If Ivysaur is so godly compared to the other two, while aren't they using the "optimal" strategy of just sticking with them the entire match except when they need to recover?

I'll take Zard buffs and slight Ivysaur nerfs if they come, but I don't think they're necessary for the PT meta to progress. It's been progressing fine as is. I think Squirtle is kind of in that sweetspot though where he's good but not too good, there's not much I really want for him.
I agree with most of it and some stuff i dont, but im not invested enough in pkm trainer right now to say much more.
I'll just say that even if ivy is mostly good enough by itself, there's still uses for the other 2, if at least to throw off the opponent by switching styles. Not to mention the switching itself acting like a dodge at times. You're right too that squirtle's frame data can probably be put to good use at times.

And I still would love for them to do the changes i mentioned just so we can see much more diverse trainers with a lot more switching, or even squirtle and charizard solo mains (more of them, i mean).

Enjoy pkm trainer in any case ;)
I'll visit back in the future if ever i go back to them.
 
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