Meta Pokemon Stadium - Mewtwo General Matchup Thread

[Diddy Kong]

I actually think the match goes about 50-50 if Mewtwo can kill Luma effectively.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Just in case you guys would like too see it, here is Trela going up against Karna's Sheik and Fox with Mewtwo:

 

[Sparky15]

For the Rosalina matchup. does anyone know any other options to launch Luma other than f-air? It's kind of risky to land... But Rosalina isn't a terrible matchup, but it is in her favor if only for her Luma, annoying KO options, and the fact that Gravitational Pull practically nullifies our Shadow Balls. At least Mewtwo has range and great power.

I feel like we should begin the matchups with the less common characters, if you ask me. From my experiences, those characters gave me a tougher time.

 

[Tito Maas]

Why do people always turn to official Pokedex descriptions (which can be pretty wack themselves... did you know Joltik
is small enough to fit in your hand?) to complain about Mewtwo's weight? Nobody does that with Charizard who should
supposedly be lighter, but he gets a pass because heavy=good. Weight in this game can be compared to stamina
in other fighters, and Mewtwo has little of it because of the multitude of ways he can kill. Powerful smashes (including a dsmash
unpunishable on shield, and a frame 5 Usmash with good reach), two killing throws, killing projectile, reflector,
deadly edgeguarding, having a swift and powerful shadow claw (also potent as an air punish), strong spike, nair that
can drag people to their doom, and bair that can sometimes Wall of Pain, and he can go really deep to do it on top of all
that. With how lethal Mewtwo can be if played well, it's only fair that he goes down pretty quickly if he's hit himself.
At least, that's how I see it now.

If Mewtwo has to be the second lightest character in the same because of "the ways he can kill" instead of his body size and type like everyone else in the game, then Captain Falcon should be lighter than Jigglypuff and able to be killed at 50%.

 

[meleebrawler]

If Mewtwo has to be the second lightest character in the same because of "the ways he can kill" instead of his body size and type like everyone else in the game, then Captain Falcon should be lighter than Jigglypuff and able to be killed at 50%.

Falcon's weight and falling speed make him open to even bigger combos than Mewtwo (heck, it's not too
hard for him to string two shadow claws against him at low percents), and his recovery is very easily intercepted
with or without customs. It's generally accepted that Falcon goes down quite fast when he does get hit. You don't have
to be lightweight to be frail.

Falcon may have a good number of kill moves, but almost all of them only really land through reads or punishes.
Uair is his most reliable kill move and he has little trouble getting into position to use it, but the point still stands
that his game is a lot less flexible than Mewtwo's, even if it is a very effective one.

 

[Harb]

I think his worst matchups are all of the rushdown characters like ZSS, Diddy, etc. However, he can go against the other characters to a pretty decent degree. Just don't try to rush in on characters with Mewtwo though. =P

 

[Kalierdarke]

I think his worst matchups are all of the rushdown characters like ZSS, Diddy, etc. However, he can go against the other characters to a pretty decent degree. Just don't try to rush in on characters with Mewtwo though. =P

Occasionally rushing is fine except against heavies. You don't want to make a habit of it, but M2 can certainly mix up how he applies pressure against most of the cast.

 

[Harb]

Occasionally rushing is fine except against heavies. You don't want to make a habit of it, but M2 can certainly mix up how he applies pressure against most of the cast.

Yeah I should have thought about the heavyweights. But yeah Mewtwo does have several ways to space and mix up in this game. Much better than he was in Melee.

 

[carlos11]

I think one of the few matchups in our favor is against Villager. This is primarily because of Confusion being so good and Villager's projectiles being so slow. When I say projectiles, I don't just mean Lloyd Rocket. I'm also talking about Timber, side smash, and Fair.

In my experience, when playing against people around my skill level, Villager feels easy. Is this the general consensus?

 

[Sonsa]

I think one of the few matchups in our favor is against Villager. This is primarily because of Confusion being so good and Villager's projectiles being so slow. When I say projectiles, I don't just mean Lloyd Rocket. I'm also talking about Timber, side smash, and Fair.

In my experience, when playing against people around my skill level, Villager feels easy. Is this the general consensus?

Mmm, sorry, but no, I think Villager has the advantage at high level. You might not want to reflect too much, we can pocket it all back. We'll especially be baiting a reflect if we're planting a tree.

And Villagers just send gyroids to keep you busy so while you're busy reflecting Villagers should punish. And fair is not that slow, Mewtwo struggles being so tall against that too, and with his laggy double jump.

Plus a pocketed fully charged shadow ball will kill quite early or definitely break shields.

Villager can pester Mewtwo from afar, forcing him to be the one to approach, pocket so many powerful things, and avoid most slow combos with nair.

Even disable is pocketable! I think at the very least it's 45:55 in Mewtwo's favor. A slight disadvantage. It's by no means an impossible fight, but Villager just has much better tools. Mewtwo will have to be tricky and smart. Very careful with the reflect. Reflecting a pocketed shadow ball could do the trick if Villager isn't expecting it: again. Villager has the advantage, Mewtwo has to be smart.

 

[Chiroz]

Mmm, sorry, but no, I think Villager has the advantage at high level. You might not want to reflect too much, we can pocket it all back. We'll especially be baiting a reflect if we're planting a tree.

And Villagers just send gyroids to keep you busy so while you're busy reflecting Villagers should punish. And fair is not that slow, Mewtwo struggles being so tall against that too, and with his laggy double jump.

Plus a pocketed fully charged shadow ball will kill quite early or definitely break shields.

Villager can pester Mewtwo from afar, forcing him to be the one to approach, pocket so many powerful things, and avoid most slow combos with nair.

Even disable is pocketable! I think at the very least it's 45:55 in Mewtwo's favor. A slight disadvantage. It's by no means an impossible fight, but Villager just has much better tools. Mewtwo will have to be tricky and smart. Very careful with the reflect. Reflecting a pocketed shadow ball could do the trick if Villager isn't expecting it: again. Villager has the advantage, Mewtwo has to be smart.

Well to be fair you're making it seem harder than it is.

Lloyd Rocket is slow, there's a certain timing for Confusion where you can both reflect and have enough time to avoid or punish Villager's approach, unless the rocket is so far away that Villager can catch up to it, but at that point Mewtwo could move slightly backwarda and avoid the rocket all together (or try challenging Villager in the air if he wants to).

Mewtwo will obviously not reflect a Tree, but he can easily reflect an F-Smash or the Growing Sprout. Villager's ground game is sort of outclassed by Mewtwo's tilts. In the air Villager's F-Air and B-Air might be annoying specially because of Mewtwo's height but I still haven't been completely walled out by a Villager using them, they can also be reflected if used predictably.



I can't claim to know the matchup or how easy or hard it is, but honestly I've never played a Villager who has even made me sweat, of course I've never played a Villager that's close to my level yet either. If you're a decent Villager we could try playing some games and seeing how that goes.

 

[Sonsa]

Well to be fair you're making it seem harder than it is.

Lloyd Rocket is slow, there's a certain timing for Confusion where you can both reflect and have enough time to avoid or punish Villager's approach, unless the rocket is so far away that Villager can catch up to it, but at that point Mewtwo could move slightly backwarda and avoid the rocket all together (or try challenging Villager in the air if he wants to).

Mewtwo will obviously not reflect a Tree, but he can easily reflect an F-Smash or the Growing Sprout. Villager's ground game is sort of outclassed by Mewtwo's tilts. In the air Villager's F-Air and B-Air might be annoying specially because of Mewtwo's height but I still haven't been completely walled out by a Villager using them, they can also be reflected if used predictably.

I can't claim to know the matchup or how easy or hard it is, but honestly I've never played a Villager who has even made me sweat, of course I've never played a Villager that's close to my level yet either. If you're a decent Villager we could try playing some games and seeing how that goes.

Well sure, at high level play Mewtwo's should expect Villager's to pocket those, but the original poster was fighting a lil inexperienced Villager so, thought it was worth mentioning.

Some of the things you're saying...yeees, but Villager shouldn't be any closer than mid-range until he gets a hit, so the tail isn't so worrisome.

In any case, I'd love some matches to understand the MU better. I worry I've only fought inexperienced Mewtwo's who kept feeding me shadow balls.

 

[carlos11]

Sorry, I was by no means implying that the matchup was completely one-sided. I meant to say that Mewtwo had only a slight advantage, but an advantage nonetheless.

I don't think there's enough time for you to punish a baited Confusion with anything other than dash attack. (Villager's dash attack can also be reflected, by the way.)
Also, how come you guys think it's a bad idea to use Confusion on Timber? I don't know how that would usually play out in high level play (and I'd like your input on that) but I feel like it's somewhat safe. Confusion is active for a lot of frames and it has great range. This means that you can use it a little bit early and you can space it so that you're not close enough to get hit by the actual Timber. I do know that villager can pocket it, but after it's been reflected once the Timber just moves so damn slow that you can only be hit by it if you're caught by surprise. At this point, I guess it is risky since whoever gets hit loses their stock or their shield.

 

[Sonsa]

Sorry, I was by no means implying that the matchup was completely one-sided. I meant to say that Mewtwo had only a slight advantage, but an advantage nonetheless.

I don't think there's enough time for you to punish a baited Confusion with anything other than dash attack. (Villager's dash attack can also be reflected, by the way.)
Also, how come you guys think it's a bad idea to use Confusion on Timber? I don't know how that would usually play out in high level play (and I'd like your input on that) but I feel like it's somewhat safe. Confusion is active for a lot of frames and it has great range. This means that you can use it a little bit early and you can space it so that you're not close enough to get hit by the actual Timber. I do know that villager can pocket it, but after it's been reflected once the Timber just moves so damn slow that you can only be hit by it if you're caught by surprise. At this point, I guess it is risky since whoever gets hit loses their stock or their shield.

I didn't think ya were, don't worry bout that! I just think Villager has the advantage. And yes, we can pocket our tree back, like all our projectiles, which is why I'm not very threatened by the reflector. If we're chopping down that tree it's because we want you to reflect it so we can pocket it or we're feeling lucky I guess.

It is very risky for both but Villager has the advantage as he dictates when the tree comes down and when it comes out of his pocket. The side-b could be punished with a well timed fair, which, at high level isn't that insane to get consistent.

 

[Tito Maas]

I've tried and tried but I feel like I can't get past Mewtwo's weight and size.

He's just too damn light.

It is absolutely ridiculous that he is the second lightest character in the game. Not only does it not make sense for his character, but it's completely unjustifiable for him to be that light and vulnerable, even competitively (no, being strong doesn't mean hinder him to that degree. Which is even worsened by the fact that they made him lighter than he wax in Melee. A complete misjudgment if how to handle this character.

He basically has the Little Mac thing going on, except he doesn't have the super armor to use his awesome offense as a defense).

I can't get by it. I may have lost my 17th consecutive against Ganon (part of a larger losing slump where I've been losing to him consistently over the course of the week), and I can't do it anymore. No matter how well you do, it seems like one **** up and you're done, unapologetically.

I'm an offensive-minded player, but seriously--you have to have even a little defense for me to be able to work with you. Just a little.

He's so fragile that he's not even a good representative for the character of Mewtwo. Not the badass from Mewtwo Strikes Back, not the level 70 final boss from Red and Blue, not the Pokemon Adventures spoon Mewtwo--heck, probably not even representative of the lame Mewtwo from the Genesect movie I never saw.

I wanted to make Mewtwo my secondary but he just is too weak defensively to hold that position. At best, I feel like I can use him as a counterpick against people like Megaman.

I'm so frustrated. I've been playing with him nonstop and I can't even feel myself getting any better with him.

 

[Chiroz]

Sorry, I was by no means implying that the matchup was completely one-sided. I meant to say that Mewtwo had only a slight advantage, but an advantage nonetheless.

I don't think there's enough time for you to punish a baited Confusion with anything other than dash attack. (Villager's dash attack can also be reflected, by the way.)
Also, how come you guys think it's a bad idea to use Confusion on Timber? I don't know how that would usually play out in high level play (and I'd like your input on that) but I feel like it's somewhat safe. Confusion is active for a lot of frames and it has great range. This means that you can use it a little bit early and you can space it so that you're not close enough to get hit by the actual Timber. I do know that villager can pocket it, but after it's been reflected once the Timber just moves so damn slow that you can only be hit by it if you're caught by surprise. At this point, I guess it is risky since whoever gets hit loses their stock or their shield.

Actually, Lloyd Rockets baits are normally punished with an aerial, ANY aerial if Mewtwo Confuses the Rocket as it reaches him. However if Mewtwo is close or mid range he can start the confusion way before the Rocket reaches him (Confusion has a lot of active reflect frames), allowing him to reflect AND act out of the reflect fast enough to avoid any punishment. If Villager is close enough to punish your "correctly-timed" Confusion then that means that he had ample time to catch up to the rocket which means you were a little farther away than mid range and by that point your best option is probably something else that isn't reflecting (unless you see the Villager coming in for a dash attack or something).

Reflecting a tree ends up in it being pocketed almost 100% of the time unless the Villager is surprised by it, which doesn't happen very often. You can however reflect the tree as it's growing (at least I am fairly sure, about 99%, that I've done it) which will also kill incredibly early since it will have 1.4x power.

Well sure, at high level play Mewtwo's should expect Villager's to pocket those, but the original poster was fighting a lil inexperienced Villager so, thought it was worth mentioning.

Some of the things you're saying...yeees, but Villager shouldn't be any closer than mid-range until he gets a hit, so the tail isn't so worrisome.

In any case, I'd love some matches to understand the MU better. I worry I've only fought inexperienced Mewtwo's who kept feeding me shadow balls.

I won't be able to play you today, but I'll add you. Add me and we can play some games tomorrow. I don't think I am the best Mewtwo out there considering I only have a little less than 2 weeks using him (since I wasn't able to play for close to 3 weeks after he was released), but I consider myself quite decent at using him.

I've tried and tried but I feel like I can't get past Mewtwo's weight and size.

He's just too damn light.

It is absolutely ridiculous that he is the second lightest character in the game. Not only does it not make sense for his character, but it's completely unjustifiable for him to be that light and vulnerable, even competitivelycompetitively (no, being strong doesn't mean hinder him to that degree. He basically has the Little Mac thing going on, except he doesn't have the super armor to use his awesome offense as a defense).

I can't get by it. I may have lost my 17th consecutive against Ganon (part of a larger losing slump where I've been losing to him consistently over the course of the week), and I can't do it anymore. No matter how well you do, it seems like one **** up and you're done, unapologetically.

I wanted to make Mewtwo my secondary but he just is too weak defensively to hold that position. At best, I feel like I can use him as a counterpick against people like Megaman.

I'm so frustrated. I've been playing with him nonstop and I can't even feel myself getting any better with him.

I still think Ganon is an easy fight for Mewtwo though.

 

[Tito Maas]

I still think Ganon is an easy fight for Mewtwo though.

I don't see it. He's so extra powerful, just one combo and you're in critical condition. You can't make mistakes against that character.

How often have I been spiked to hell or air Ganon punched across the screen when I'm simply trying to follow up on a combo or string together some type of damage? You damn near have to hit and run and you can't do that with a guy who can get beat all game and still win off of one mental error.

The Ganondorf I play ruthlessly outmatches my Mewtwo consistently. It's become so one sided now that I don't even learn anything from my losses.

 

[Browny]

I've tried and tried but I feel like I can't get past Mewtwo's weight and size.

He's just too damn light.

It is absolutely ridiculous that he is the second lightest character in the game. Not only does it not make sense for his character, but it's completely unjustifiable for him to be that light and vulnerable, even competitivelycompetitively (no, being strong doesn't mean hinder him to that degree. He basically has the Little Mac thing going on, except he doesn't have the super armor to use his awesome offense as a defense).

I can't get by it. I may have lost my 17th consecutive against Ganon (part of a larger losing slump where I've been losing to him consistently over the course of the week), and I can't do it anymore. No matter how well you do, it seems like one **** up and you're done, unapologetically.

I wanted to make Mewtwo my secondary but he just is too weak defensively to hold that position. At best, I feel like I can use him as a counterpick against people like Megaman.

I'm so frustrated. I've been playing with him nonstop and I can't even feel myself getting any better with him.

I look at it this way. If mewtwo was heavier, say mario weight. He might survive like 20% longer on average per stock?

Now look at the average damage of mewtwos attacks, keep in mind these attacks are fast, have good range and arent too hard to land (unlike ganondorfs everything)

usmash 17%
dair 14%
fair 13%
multiple 11% throws
jab 12%
dash attack 10%

And theres a 26% shadow ball in there too

Mewtwo packs a wide range of high damaging moves, he really does hit like a heavyweight. Look at other lightweights like zss, G&W, Metaknight and their highest damaging attacks; most of their attacks are under 10% and only their hard-hitting, slow and punishable moves are above like, 12%.

Mewtwo might not take many hits himself, but he doesnt have to land many either.

 

[Chiroz]

I don't see it. He's so extra powerful, just one combo and you're in critical condition. You can't make mistakes against that character.

How often have I been spiked to hell or air Ganon punched across the screen when I'm simply trying to follow up on a combo or string together some type of damage? You damn near have to hit and run and you can't do that with a guy who can get beat all game and still win off of one mental error.

The Ganondorf I play ruthlessly outmatches my Mewtwo consistently. It's become so one sided now that I don't even learn anything from my losses.

It sounds like you're just being punished for overcommiting. Also getting spiked by Ganon means you're doing something horribly wrong, specially as Mewtwo. If you get punished trying to complete a string then don't try it again under the same circumstances, you're obviously going to be punished again.

What I am saying is that this Ganon player would probably beat you with any other character anyways, it isn't the matchup, it's the skill gap.

 

[Karsticles]

I don't see it. He's so extra powerful, just one combo and you're in critical condition. You can't make mistakes against that character.

How often have I been spiked to hell or air Ganon punched across the screen when I'm simply trying to follow up on a combo or string together some type of damage? You damn near have to hit and run and you can't do that with a guy who can get beat all game and still win off of one mental error.

The Ganondorf I play ruthlessly outmatches my Mewtwo consistently. It's become so one sided now that I don't even learn anything from my losses.

If Ganondorf is regularly hitting you with Warlock Punch, that is a problem with you man.

 

[Tito Maas]

If Ganondorf is regularly hitting you with Warlock Punch, that is a problem with you man.

His forward air punch, usually under the circumstance of me trying to beat him out with a Shadow Claw after launching him in the air.

It sounds like you're just being punished for overcommiting. Also getting spiked by Ganon means you're doing something horribly wrong, specially as Mewtwo. If you get punished trying to complete a string then don't try it again under the same circumstances, you're obviously going to be punished again.

What I am saying is that this Ganon player would probably beat you with any other character anyways, it isn't the matchup, it's the skill gap.

I feel like I play very defensively, especially since I don't feel like I have an opportunity to mess up and survive. I always try to get a lot of space between me and him and use tilts and the more I think about it, the more I feel like my game in general revolves around punishing. I don't feel like I can be aggressive Mewtwo unless I'm playing a character who relies heavily on projectiles.

I play this dude every day, his Ganon only consistently beats my Mewtwo. And it's because at 60%, I'm literally always flying through the air until I'm KO'd.

 

[Chiroz]

His forward air punch, usually under the circumstance of me trying to beat him out with a Shadow Claw after launching him in the air.


I feel like I play very defensively, especially since I don't feel like I have an opportunity to mess up and survive. I always try to get a lot of space between me and him and use tilts and the more I think about it, the more I feel like my game in general revolves around punishing. I don't feel like I can be aggressive Mewtwo unless I'm playing a character who relies heavily on projectiles.

I play this dude every day, his Ganon only consistently beats my Mewtwo. And it's because at 60%, I'm literally always flying through the air until I'm KO'd.

If you're following a non-hit stunned Ganon through the air without any plan over and over again that isn't exactly playing defensively.

Mewtwo isn't as easy to play as say Luigi who can just spam attacks all day with no fear of getting punished and almost everything combos into something else. Mewtwo needs to be smart about what he uses and when. Following someone into the air needs to be in your favor, you need to take control of the situation, otherwise just stay on the ground and reset to neutral.

Basically what I am saying is, if you jump after someone who is not in hitstun in the air, have a plan about exactly how things are going to play out. If you think he's going to F-Air then stay just outside his range and then punish, empty hop and land into a punish, or something different. If you go after him with an aerial and get hit in the process it's because you didn't plan ahead what would happen and you would have gotten hit no matter what character you were playing.

 

[*JuriHan*]

Mewtwo feels, in some aspects, like the development team rushed his hitboxes and overcompensated when deciding his weight. I could definitely be wrong, and a lack of changes wouldn't lead me to changing characters, but I think Mewtwo is deserving of some basic tweaking.
In the end, I'm just glad we have him at all! :3

EXACTLY my point in my post

 

[Spirst]

Okay, as I've said, we're transitioning into actual focused MU discussion this week.

Seeing as how I doubt many people have good Mewtwo experience, I feel it's worth it to experiment with having more than one character discussed so that MU discussion doesn't die so quickly. If that doesn't work, another plan will be to discuss a character not for a week but rather for about 3-4 days.

This week, we'll do two fairly popular characters and see how it goes. I'm opting for Rosalina/Mario myself. Once I have a chance to observe how this goes, I'll make a more defined schedule. Remember, I'm learning too here.

Something else to keep in mind when discussion matchups is that matchup ratios are much less important than actual discussion. I would recommend not throwing out arbitrary ratios for the sake of doing so as that leads to a lot of confusion and oversimplification. If it must be expressed numerically, I find that theoretical numbers like +1/-1 are better.

For reference:
+3 = major advantage
+2 = moderate advantage
+1 = minor advantage
±0 = even
-1 = minor disadvantage
-2 = moderate disadvantage
-3 = major disadvantage

Let's also try to keep posts relatively clean and use a guideline. Posts need not follow this precisely but using it roughly should keep things organized.

• Pros
• Cons
• Stage picks
• Additional notes
• Theoretical score

When discussing, be wary of going off of For Glory experience. Online can be a practical way to learn matchups and won't be shunned but FG really isn't the best way to go about things.

Lastly, don't kill yourselves over this.

This will be round 1 of matchup discussion. Other characters have had over half a year to do this so we really need to be good with this to catch up.

 

[Spirst]

Okay, opening up discussion now. For the opening, we'll do



and by extension,

I'll let the other boards know we're discussing them so hopefully, we can get stuff going. Let's try to push this for a week and see what happens.

 

[Karsticles]

Rosalina with customs feels very uphill. Her hitboxes beat all of ours, she absorbs Shadow Ball for free, and she has a great harassment projectile that we cannot meaningfully reflect back at her. She KOs earlier than we do, too.

Approaching her with aerials is dangerous; Dtilt on Luna seems like the best bet. Nair is a pretty good option since you snag Rosalina and Luma. Disable and Confusion are dangerous because Luma is still free.

I don't know the Mario matchup as well.

 

[Chiroz]

Rosalina with customs feels very uphill. Her hitboxes beat all of ours, she absorbs Shadow Ball for free, and she has a great harassment projectile that we cannot meaningfully reflect back at her. She KOs earlier than we do, too.

Approaching her with aerials is dangerous; Dtilt on Luna seems like the best bet. Nair is a pretty good option since you snag Rosalina and Luma. Disable and Confusion are dangerous because Luma is still free.

I don't know the Mario matchup as well.

I got some good feedback on Rosa I will be writting up later on today but there are 2 things wrong here.

1-) Mewtwo kills earlier than Rosalina unless you get U-Aired while high up. Just avoid the U-Airs and Rosalina won't be killing you as early as your U-Throw will kill her.

2-) Rosalina can't absorb Shadow Ball for free. Shadow Ball is the second fastest projectile in the game in terms of end lag (or at least top 3-5, I tested against more than half the cast). Mewtwo is able to act out of it almost immediately. If Rosalina is relatively mid-rangish (about a little more than half of SmashVille), her absorb animation takes so long that it's a free dash attack or aerial for Mewtwo. If Rosalina is close to you when she absorbs the ball then you can actually smash her in the face (obviously remember that Luma can still act, so it can still attack you).

I played a pretty decent Rosalina and I kept throwing Shadow Balls at him as a bait so I could land a dash attack and kill Luma (throw him off stage).



I think the matchup without customs is about even and it skews slightly in Rosalina's favor with customs on, but it isn't a hard matchup to be honest. Something like 45:55 or 40:60 at the extreme most.

 

[tconan]

As a Rosalina main, I'd like to say a few things about shadow ball and gravitational pull:
Most decent Rosalinas will not gravity at a close distance. They are aware that it has some cooldown, so it will mostly be used to stop mewtwo from forcing Rosalina to approach. With Luma, a close range small shadow ball becomes very unsafe as Rosalina can just run up and dash attack while Luma blocks the shadow ball.
I see the matchup as slightly favoring Rosalina and Luma (-1) because:
-uncharged shadow balls are practically useless when Luma is around
-Rosalina's juggling > Mewtwo's juggling
-Mewtwo's kill moves > Rosalina's kill moves
-Both can zone well, but Rosalina and Luma have slightly better range and priority

 

[Chiroz]

As a Rosalina main, I'd like to say a few things about shadow ball and gravitational pull:
Most decent Rosalinas will not gravity at a close distance. They are aware that it has some cooldown, so it will mostly be used to stop mewtwo from forcing Rosalina to approach. With Luma, a close range small shadow ball becomes very unsafe as Rosalina can just run up and dash attack while Luma blocks the shadow ball.
I see the matchup as slightly favoring Rosalina and Luma (-1) because:
-uncharged shadow balls are practically useless when Luma is around
-Rosalina's juggling > Mewtwo's juggling
-Mewtwo's kill moves > Rosalina's kill moves
-Both can zone well, but Rosalina and Luma have slightly better range and priority

The range I am talking about is about half of SmashVille (maybe even a little more), it isn't as close as it may sound.

I was however going to say that Luma still eats any Shadow Ball thrown at Rosa. Basically charging and releasing a Shadow Ball in Neutral is a way to wear down Luma, but it won't net you anything towards hitting Rosa. Rosa's custom side-B though makes charging Shadow Ball impossible, plus reflecting it doesn't achieve anything.

Luma makes Shadow Balls, Confusion (Luma is immune to grabs and can attack back while Rosalina is spinning) and Disable (Luma can't be stunned, she does take 1% damage though) useless, so take that into account.

 

[Browny]

Mario gets rekt by intelligent shadowball use.

There is a precise range you can throw it at where if he reflects it, he cant dodge it when you use confusion to send it back. If you are a little outside of that range you can jump to avoid the triple reflected shadowball.

Basically whenever mario is trying to land you should have that ready to smack him with. He cant fireball to stop it, he cant airdodge it and he cant reflect it if you get the spacing and timing right. That works on just about every character, but with Mario its a case of

and I like to see how brave these Marios think they are. Ive practiced it a lot and I now land this pretty regularly and get punished for trying it maybe 1/10 times.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I lack meaningful Mewtwo experience, but there are a few things I want to point out (and ask) for the Rosalina matchup.

Disable counts as a projectile and thus can be absorbed by GPull. (Not that we'd bother with it in close range but still.) On a related note, does Disable pierce Luma?
Since Confusion is unsafe on hit (why Sakurai) Rosalina can pop an aerial out pretty damn quick, and Luma will follow suit. I can see this becoming unpleasant for Mewtwo if Luma stays in place after a Confusion hit.
Mewtwo's range seems to be a lot like Rosalina's in that it's tied to a large part of his body (his tail vs. Rosalina's legs), so I'm not sure how much of his moveset is actually more disjointed than Rosalina's.

 

[pikazz]

something I am angry about in Rosalina MU is that Luma doesnt get dizzy when Rosalina is dizzy by Disable, making Rosalina have the upperhand with Disable, since Luma can easy attack mewtwo while preparing a attack! you can still shield it and roll behind Rosalina to attack from behind which is better, but it costs you time

for grab game, if you grab rosalina quick and do a FThrow Before Luma is able to react, you can hit Luma aswell! the best throw against her if Luma is alive!

if Rosalina is stalling at the ledge and her luma is active, a simly dash attack is enough to make Luma fall off the stage and die! even if rosalina do shield-grab you, it can be worth it to remove her luma!

I personally would say that the match up is 50/50 - 53/47 Mewtwos Favor.
why is because both need to work to win, while mewtwo do have some smaller greater upperhand over Rosalina herself but Rosalina has a Big yet killable Upperhand, her Luma!


Mario on the other hand:
thanks to Mewtwos Light Weight, Marios BnB combos doesnt work that well on him since Mewtwo can escape it almost as easy as Jigglypuff, but that makes Marios Kill Move kill mewtwo faster

I dont have much to say about that match up but I would say it at least 50/50

 

[meleebrawler]

I can't say I've experienced horror stories of Luma interrupting confusion, but I do know that for regular grabs
Luma can't attack until Rosalina is released (he panics). Mewtwo even has dthrow to smack Luma with if he does get one.

Yes Disable doesn't pierce so Luma can tank it, however Mewtwo can just short hop to hit the tall Rosalina in the face
so it's not a perfect defence. What IS a problem is that Luma indeed can freely attack when Rosa is stunned, so you'll
likely be punished when you do land it unless spaced perfectly.

Now, I've just tried Confusion on a level 9 CPU in training, and whenever she had Luma by her side he floated up with
her, so I don't see how he can interrupt it in the middle unless he's separate but nearby. And as for hitting Mewtwo afterwards,
business as usual; just shield and punish.

Wouldn't reflecting a shooting star bit at least take a small chunk of Luma's health? Or does it not reach when
reflected at a comfortable distance?

 

[Chiroz]

Alright here is a write up on Mewtwo vs Rosa:

First off some FACTS:

Luma is able to eat Shadow Ball at any % and not even flinch (well she does go into tumble if it's fully charged).
Luma is not affected by Confusion (she is immune to grabs) and can attack instantly
Luma is not affected by Disable, but she does block it for Rosalina (she does take the 1% damage though)



Some misconceptions:

Rosa CANNOT absorb Shadow Ball freely. Shadow Ball has very low endlag and Rosalina has a lot of endlag on GP. Mewtwo can punish a Rosalina who absorbs Shadow Ball from a little further than half of SmashVille. Do not let her get free absorbs on you.

Rosa does not have an easier time camping you out. Mewtwo has better range and Rosa sending Luma out means certain death for the Luma. You can camp Rosa out if need be with baby Shadow Balls, although don't expect Rosa to just sit by idly allowing you to do that.



As RosaLumas (or people who play against RosaLumas on a fair basis) know the most effective way to kill Luma is to send her into tumble, since she cannot exit tumble animation until she touches the ground. Mewtwo is extremely BAD at doing this.

None of Mewtwo's specials or tilts send Luma into tumble, NONE (except fully charged Shadow Ball). N-Air also doesn't send her into tumble. Like with all other chars the easiest attack to send her into tumble with is Dash Attack but Dash Attack has a lot of end lag and a good Rosalina won't just let you Dash Attack Luma. Smashes are in the same boat as Dash Attack.

(Edit: I was later informed in this thread that Luma's launch ability gets increased with damage, so Mewtwo's Tilts CAN knock Luma away once she has a little bit of damage tacked on)

So with that said, what attacks should Mewtwo be using to kill Luma? Well, Dash Attack whenever Luma is by herself obviously. F-Air is pretty safe and even if Rosalina blocks it MIGHT (emphasis on might, because sometimes it doesn't) hit Luma. Multi-Jab is a fast attack which sends Luma away and has the added bonus of a lingering hitbox in case Rosalina wanted to punish you.



So again, another big part of the match up is rushing down Rosalina when she is vulnerable (either Luma is dead, or Rosalina is in the air above you, etc). How good is Mewtwo at this?

Well, Mewtwo has a decent Dash Speed, but his options out of Dash aren't exactly great. Approaching with aerials or just walking is probably the best option against a vulnerable Rosalina. Rosalina can play the spacing game just as well as Mewtwo which makes out tilt combos hard to start.



So how exactly does Mewtwo fight this matchup? Well, to be honest just fight as if you were Rosalina yourself. Play patiently, defensively and wait for **** ups. Charge your Shadow Ball everytime the game comes back to neutral and punish any approaches. The defender truly has an advantage here and there is no reason why you should be approaching Rosalina (closer than mid-range anyways). Try and punish her recovery which sucks too.



Remember that you can short hop (and wait a bit) Shadow Balls in order to hit Rosalina instead of Luma. Also if you throw instantly Luma is not able to knock you out of a throw, no matter which throw it is. Down-Throw and F-Throw also hit Luma if you ever need to do that.

Reflecting fully charged Luma Shot kills Rosalina from center stage around 50%.

Remember that not only do you kill earlier but also much easier. You only need to land that U-Throw at around 90% (both of you: Rage!) to get that kill, while she needs to land U-Air or U-Smash which aren't as easy to land and can both be punished with your throw if done close to the ground.



From my experience Default Rosa vs Mewtwo is a lot about the neutral game. It's all about approaching safely and patiently or making your opponent approach. Both Mewtwo and Rosa have very common tools in terms of spacing and combos, plus they both kill early and die early (which makes the fight campy but short). Try to avoid any type of juggles from Rosa, she's better at those than we are so just reset to neutral every time you can and just wear her down hit by hit until kill %.



Customs Rosa is a much harder matchup. She has a projectile that reaches the whole stage and basically does nothing when reflected (since it hits Luma). She also will get Luma warp which will completely destroy any type of spacing game you might want to play with her. With customs Rosa will force us to approach every time which will result in her favor, plus with Luma Warp we can't even take our time to approach patiently as we need to be out of the range of Luma Warp as soon as we can.

I think this matchup (customs Rosa) should be played in close-mid rangish. Close enough where you can punish Star Bit on confirm and Luma Warp can't hit you but far away enough where Rosalina can't just punish you. Basically try to dance around that range and play the match up just like you did non-customs Rosa, patiently and waiting on mistakes or getting solid reads.




I would say Default MU is close to 50:50 (maybe 45:55 in Rosa's favor) and Customs MU is 45:55 (maybe 40:60 in Rosa's favor)

 

[Chiroz]

I can't say I've experienced horror stories of Luma interrupting confusion, but I do know that for regular grabs
Luma can't attack until Rosalina is released (he panics). Mewtwo even has dthrow to smack Luma with if he does get one.

Yes Disable doesn't pierce so Luma can tank it, however Mewtwo can just short hop to hit the tall Rosalina in the face
so it's not a perfect defence. What IS a problem is that Luma indeed can freely attack when Rosa is stunned, so you'll
likely be punished when you do land it unless spaced perfectly.

Now, I've just tried Confusion on a level 9 CPU in training, and whenever she had Luma by her side he floated up with
her, so I don't see how he can interrupt it in the middle unless he's separate but nearby. And as for hitting Mewtwo afterwards,
business as usual; just shield and punish.

Wouldn't reflecting a shooting star bit at least take a small chunk of Luma's health? Or does it not reach when
reflected at a comfortable distance?

I've had Luma hit me out of Confusion faster than any other char, I know she floats to the middle (only if Rosalina is hit, otherwise she doesn't) but I think she still attacks earlier than any other char, like I think it might not be shieldable, but I am not sure.

It does deal damage to Luma but doesn't that projectile deal like 2% or something like that? With staling it would take like 20+ hits to kill Luma with that. Also the projectile is so fast that you need to be waiting for it in order to reflect it on reflex. If you're performing any other action you won't be able to reflect it. I mean if you're all for the mass camp game then I guess that's fine but I find waiting to reflect the same projectile 20 times to not be how I want to play smash.

 

[meleebrawler]

The shooting star bit does around 5% damage. I understand that Mewtwo can only reliably reflect it from far
away but it's far from a waste of time to do so.

Also, doesn't Luma become easier to launch the more it's hurt?

 

[Parcheesy]

The shooting star bit does around 5% damage. I understand that Mewtwo can only reliably reflect it from far
away but it's far from a waste of time to do so.

Also, doesn't Luma become easier to launch the more it's hurt?

Yeah, there's some knockback growth attached to how much percent Luma has tacked on it. After doing a bit of training mode, down tilt seems to be the way to start any Luma killing pattern. The tipper won't send Luma into tumble until 10% or so, but the sweetspot closer to Mewtwo will always send it up, and put it into a favorable position to finish it off with some other hit.

 

[Chiroz]

The shooting star bit does around 5% damage. I understand that Mewtwo can only reliably reflect it from far
away but it's far from a waste of time to do so.

Also, doesn't Luma become easier to launch the more it's hurt?

Are you sure the custom one does 5% damage, I thought it did much less to "balance" the fact that it's faster and has longer range. What's the tradeoff for choosing this custom then?


Also I am fairly certain Luma doesn't get launched easier on more damage. Every attack launches her a set distance and that's it. It's why you have attacks like Falcon's F-Tilt send her flying away across the stage even at 0%. At least that's what I think.

 

[Parcheesy]

Are you sure the custom one does 5% damage, I thought it did much less to "balance" the fact that it's faster and has longer range. What's the tradeoff for choosing this custom then?


Also I am fairly certain Luma doesn't get launched easier on more damage. Every attack launches her a set distance and that's it. It's why you have attacks like Falcon's F-Tilt send her flying away across the stage even at 0%. At least that's what I think.

Either go into training mode, or a versus match and test it for yourself. There is definitely knockback growth on Luma.

For instance, at 0% Luma won't be sent into tumble from an uncharged Mewtwo forward smash, but after one or two hits, it'll be sent a short distance away, and then further as it tacks on more damage.

 

[Chiroz]

Either go into training mode, or a versus match and test it for yourself. There is definitely knockback growth on Luma.

For instance, at 0% Luma won't be sent into tumble from an uncharged Mewtwo forward smash, but after one or two hits, it'll be sent a short distance away, and then further as it tacks on more damage.

That's interesting to know. Is there any way to tell how much damage Luma currently has?