Meta Pokemon Stadium - Mewtwo General Matchup Thread

[SpottedCerberus]

woah
woah woah woah

20/80 is just not a ratio you throw out there unless you've extensively played the matchup and feel like you cant press any buttons without getting bodied for it

sure, mewtwo might be at a disadvantage, but its nowhere NEAR bad enough to be 20/80

This is a general impressions period. That's just my general impression of the matchup, thus far. And I think we're using different scales here. For me, 40:60 is a slight disadvantage, 30:70 is a negative matchup, and 20:80 is a very negative matchup. But it's not unwinnable. I just think that Olimar has all the tools to shut down everything Mewtwo can do.

 

[Chiroz]

This is a general impressions period. That's just my general impression of the matchup, thus far. And I think we're using different scales here. For me, 40:60 is a slight disadvantage, 30:70 is a negative matchup, and 20:80 is a very negative matchup. But it's not unwinnable. I just think that Olimar has all the tools to shut down everything Mewtwo can do.

I'd like to play you, you playing as Olimar. I really feel like Olimar doesn't have the tools to deal with pressure from Mewtwo to be honest.



Also 20:80 is a matchup where you literally can almost not move. I think there's only like 1 or 2 20:80 matchups in Smash history and they are normally MUs where the "20" just can't move after being hit.

45:55 is slight disadvantage. 40:60 requires work. 35:65 is a hard matchup, still doable, 30:70 basically means you need to be much better than the opponent to come close to winning. 20:80 is basically impossible.

 

[Meowser]

Marf.
Dear god, help me. Thus far this is the most difficult MU I've run into, as Mewtwo. Had one beat the crap out of me in FG today over the course of two matches, and then went to train against lv9 AI Merph, and I am at a total loss. I can't beat that sucker for the life of me.
It feels like he has the perfect anti-Mewtwo kit: faster moves, about the same range as our tilts but with the annoying tipper to deliver some triple A damage along with his pokes, counter to punish every attempt at throwing out a smash that isn't a hard read, the general movement speed to stay on our artificial butt and more OOS-options (though I gotta admit, having less than Mewtwo is kind of...technically impossible). The only thing I could sometimes land, both with the human and AI Muffs, was aerials. Fair from diagonally above/in front of him, though I feel like his FSmash could even beat out that. The damage he can get in with every connected sideB is terrifying, and even shielding those is dangerous since you can't really get out safely while risking a shield break. Any idea how to approach Morth? Or how to stand against his pressure?


Zelda has proven to be one of my favorite MUs thus far, it's quite challenging and very even, from what I can tell. Zelda and Mewtwo are quite similar in several aspects, be it the almost identical USmash, the strong zoning options, the strong air presence or general weight/floatiness ratio. What I like so much about this MU is that many staple moves of either fighter are easily countered by the other ones staple moves, so essentially whoever uses their BnB stuff first, loses. Dins fire is countered by a charged NeutralB, the spookball on the other hand is countered by Zeldas reflect. And from what I've seen, her reflect does NOT break from repeated spookball tennis, so unless she makes a timing mistake, she wins the tennis (that was one hell of a surprise the first time around). Air approaches from either fighter are countered by zoning USmashes of the other one, so in grand total it turns out to be a somewhat awkward zoning war with very weird, terrified approaches and brutal close combat if they happen to get close enough to one another. Really, really fun. If only anyone used Zelda in FG, like, at all. Pays off to have Zelda-maining friends and a devilishly brutal passive-aggresive Amiibo.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Also I still don't know why people still think Ganon beats Mewtwo.

Go to the Ganon boards lmao.

 

[Zaaroar]

Marf.
Any idea how to approach Morth?

Have you tried throwing an uncharged Shadow Ball and running towards him? With nearly everything he reacts with, I can get the grab.

 

[Meowser]

Have you tried throwing an uncharged Shadow Ball and running towards him? With nearly everything he reacts with, I can get the grab.

That was actually one of the few things I could do to get past that tipper of his, but sadly not nearly consistent enough. After landing two grabs the FG Marth simply started short-hopping the ball, zoning with FAir (I'd assume, not actually too familiar with his aerials) making sure to stay out of USmash range, or simply began chaining his sideB combo. The latter would be less of an issue if there was a way to FSmash out of a dash...

 

[SpottedCerberus]

I'd like to play you, you playing as Olimar. I really feel like Olimar doesn't have the tools to deal with pressure from Mewtwo to be honest.



Also 20:80 is a matchup where you literally can almost not move. I think there's only like 1 or 2 20:80 matchups in Smash history and they are normally MUs where the "20" just can't move after being hit.

45:55 is slight disadvantage. 40:60 requires work. 35:65 is a hard matchup, still doable, 30:70 basically means you need to be much better than the opponent to come close to winning. 20:80 is basically impossible.

I always thought that 20:80 meant that one side would 20% of the time, and the other would win 80% of the time. I sort of assumed that's what we were doing. Otherwise, the numbers seem kind of arbitrary.

Anyway, I don't know if a match-up between us would prove much. You're probably a lot better than me, and my Olimar isn't that great anyways. I wouldn't do him justice. I'd still be willing to do it if you still want to sometime over the weekend, but I can't do today or tomorrow. I imagine you'd have better luck on the Olimar boards.

 

[Chiroz]

I always thought that 20:80 meant that one side would 20% of the time, and the other would win 80% of the time. I sort of assumed that's what we were doing. Otherwise, the numbers seem kind of arbitrary.

Anyway, I don't know if a match-up between us would prove much. You're probably a lot better than me, and my Olimar isn't that great anyways. I wouldn't do him justice. I'd still be willing to do it if you still want to sometime over the weekend, but I can't do today or tomorrow. I imagine you'd have better luck on the Olimar boards.

Ah I understand.

Yea the numbers ARE in reality arbitrary, they are just meant to represent how hard a match-up is, there isn't any real logic behind it. At least that's what I always though. But yea I don't remember any 20:80 match-up out of the top of my head in any Smash before (although there might be some), and I am fairly sure Mewtwo vs Olimar isn't the hardest match-up in the history of Smash .

You had characters who could 0-Death other characters in Melee and the match-up was still not 20:80.



As for this match-up, I still think Mewtwo vs Olimar is in Mewtwo's advantage but I need to play some good Olimars.

 

[Smog Frog]

how do my bois feel about the rosa matchup?

 

[meleebrawler]

Ah I understand.

Yea the numbers ARE in reality arbitrary, they are just meant to represent how hard a match-up is, there isn't any real logic behind it. At least that's what I always though. But yea I don't remember any 20:80 match-up out of the top of my head in any Smash before (although there might be some), and I am fairly sure Mewtwo vs Olimar isn't the hardest match-up in the history of Smash .

You had characters who could 0-Death other characters in Melee and the match-up was still not 20:80.



As for this match-up, I still think Mewtwo vs Olimar is in Mewtwo's advantage but I need to play some good Olimars.

I think Melee Bowser vs. Sheik was 20:80, and both Brawl Ganon vs. Meta Knight and Sheik as well.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

how do my bois feel about the rosa matchup?

Haven't actually played that one yet. I can't imagine it's great for Mewtwo, but I could be surprised. Her Down B does negate shadow balls, right?

 

[meleebrawler]

Haven't actually played that one yet. I can't imagine it's great for Mewtwo, but I could be surprised. Her Down B does negate shadow balls, right?

Yeah, but it doesn't do anything more than that so it's not that great of a deterrent against Shadow Balls.
You could even bait it for a punish if you and her are so inclined. You can't really Confusion her with Luma in the
way but a Dthrow can smack him. Mewtwo can evade her edgeguarding but will have to be careful to avoid
early uair kills. By contrast Mewtwo can hit Rosalina pretty easily during her own recovery. Both are also pretty
close to each other in speed.

 

[Enoki]

I am pretty sure Mewtwo has an advantage over Olimar. If anything I think Olimar is one of Mewtwo's easiest matchups, there is almost nothing Olimar can do against a Mewtwo who is spacing correctly as all of Mewtwo's moves outspace Olimar's moves, not only that but most of Mewtwo's moves kill Pikmin in midair, as in F-Air can completely stop a smash from Olimar (by killing the Pikmin while in midair) AND hit Olimar too. If that wasn't bad enough you can reflect his smashes and specials.

Mewtwo has more range, more speed (attack speed), more kill power and basically all of his moves 1 hit Pikmins. I haven't played any good Olimar's yet but none of the FG Olimar's I've faced have even dealt more than 30% damage to me yet, Mewtwo seems to completelt shut down Oli.

The problem is that once olimar has gained a lead of any sort, it's extremely hard to get it. I've never seen a good FG olimar, but try fighting a good one on Anther's Ladder. Once they get ahead in stock or percentage and they pull purple or two, it feels hopeless because Mewtwo doesn't have very good approach options, and small shadow balls are negated by pikmin.
The one major advantage we have is offstage, where Olimar is forced to use an up B with no hitbox.

 

[*JuriHan*]

Let's see... I think this character has some very bad matchups, but some winnable ones. He still has some gaps in his game that's ultimately going to hold him back if they aren't addressed in future patches.

-Mewtwo's hitboxes are janky and have some odd deadzones in them. Also, the way they interact with other character's hurtboxes at times, don't make any sense. I feel like I'm flipping a coin if a move is going to land or not- it doesn't seem consistent all the time for some reason. I also notice this when fighting against a Mewtwo with my main (Sonic.) His hitboxes feel rushed and this is a shame, he would be much better if this wasn't the case.

-Another issue I see with Mewtwo, is one of his best moves- n-air... it seems random what side of Mewtwo your opponent is going to land after connecting the hits- making it hard to follow-up/combo. For a contrast example, with Sonic at low %, I can just short hop n-air to f-tilt all day for a free 23%. It's not like that with Mewtwo.

-Mewtwo's worst matchups are against characters with better framedata- or quicker pokes and jabs. Mewtwo's game is obviously spacing, but his mobility is a bit trash (why does he have so much ending lag out of a dash) and why is he so light? He weighs ALOT in the Pokemon games iirc lol. Sheik is HORRIBLE for Mewtwo. Upclose, Mewtwo has no options for her jab.

I feel a little disappointed, I wanted to second this character if he was viable. Mewtwo hits like a truck and has some great KO options but his hitboxes, inconsistency, and no options up close vs characters with fast jabs (read: many top tiers) are going to hold him back unless some kind of great tech is discovered for him.

tl;dr: this ain't no r/b/y Mewtwo where you could use amnesia turn 1 and blow up most of the metagame with psychic/ice beam

 

[meleebrawler]

Let's see... I think this character has some very bad matchups, but some winnable ones. He still has some gaps in his game that's ultimately going to hold him back if they aren't addressed in future patches.

-Mewtwo's hitboxes are janky and have some odd deadzones in them. Also, the way they interact with other character's hurtboxes at times, don't make any sense. I feel like I'm flipping a coin if a move is going to land or not- it doesn't seem consistent all the time for some reason. I also notice this when fighting against a Mewtwo with my main (Sonic.) His hitboxes feel rushed and this is a shame, he would be much better if this wasn't the case.

-Another issue I see with Mewtwo, is one of his best moves- n-air... it seems random what side of Mewtwo your opponent is going to land after connecting the hits- making it hard to follow-up/combo. For a contrast example, with Sonic at low %, I can just short hop n-air to f-tilt all day for a free 23%. It's not like that with Mewtwo.

-Mewtwo's worst matchups are against characters with better framedata- or quicker pokes and jabs. Mewtwo's game is obviously spacing, but his mobility is a bit trash (why does he have so much ending lag out of a dash) and why is he so light? He weighs ALOT in the Pokemon games iirc lol. Sheik is HORRIBLE for Mewtwo. Upclose, Mewtwo has no options for her jab.

I feel a little disappointed, I wanted to second this character if he was viable. Mewtwo hits like a truck and has some great KO options but his hitboxes, inconsistency, and no options up close vs characters with fast jabs (read: many top tiers) are going to hold him back unless some kind of great tech is discovered for him.

tl;dr: this ain't no r/b/y Mewtwo where you could use amnesia turn 1 and blow up most of the metagame with psychic/ice beam

The only moves with "janky hitboxes" are utilt and uair, while bair does rather unfortunately extend his hurtbox.
Hmm... now that I think about it, if utilt had its old Melee hitbox he could be almost unapproachable.

Opponents changing sides during Nair is only really a problem if you land during it (and even then only if they're behind)
or when trying to gimp someone with it and send them towards the stage. Even then you can manipulate this as long as
you can keep Mewtwo on one side of the opponent during the move.

Top tiers have a lot of fast moving characters, and they are his most difficult matchups because his moveset
is much better suited to keeping characters out in the first place rather than trying to repel or turn the tables on
those who have hit him already. He's kind of like a heavy in that regard. Against fast characters with fast options it's much more difficult to do that consistently, but it's certainly not impossible for him to cope with jabs when his own is fairly fast
and has more range than it appears. It even has the slight benefit of being almost visually identical to his grab.
Also Sheik's jab is hardly anything special, if you're having big issues with it you're probably playing Sheik too scared.
I know that her fair commands a lot of respect, but if you give her too much she can just go ham on your shield.

Why do people always turn to official Pokedex descriptions (which can be pretty wack themselves... did you know Joltik
is small enough to fit in your hand?) to complain about Mewtwo's weight? Nobody does that with Charizard who should
supposedly be lighter, but he gets a pass because heavy=good. Weight in this game can be compared to stamina
in other fighters, and Mewtwo has little of it because of the multitude of ways he can kill. Powerful smashes (including a dsmash
unpunishable on shield, and a frame 5 Usmash with good reach), two killing throws, killing projectile, reflector,
deadly edgeguarding, having a swift and powerful shadow claw (also potent as an air punish), strong spike, nair that
can drag people to their doom, and bair that can sometimes Wall of Pain, and he can go really deep to do it on top of all
that. With how lethal Mewtwo can be if played well, it's only fair that he goes down pretty quickly if he's hit himself.
At least, that's how I see it now.

 

[Enoki]

Many ways to kill =/= to a single extremely safe or extremely rewarding kill option. For example, Diddy's Banana to hoo hah (pre-nerf and sort of post-nerf) or fsmash is one of the overall best options in the game, part of why Diddy is so good. Likewise, ZSS paralyzer to up B or a smash is also safe and very effective. In a similar vein are Fox's jab-USmash, Luigi d-throw to aerial/down b, custom palutena d-throw to uair, Ness PK Fire to b-throw/bat, etc. Besides shadow ball, Mewtwo's only safe options for killing are dsmash, utilt to usmash, throws (which are nowhere near as good as Ness's bthrow), and, arguably his best option, edge guarding. That's definitely better than someone like Yoshi who requires a hard read or bad mistake, but it's definitely not good enough to warrant Mewtwo's being combo food and dying absurdly early. Mewtwo has a lot of problems, and I honestly hope he gets a weight/hitbox buff (more like basic correction because there's no excuse for these problems) in the next patch.

Still, there's some hope for Mewtwo and I LOVE playing as him because of his terrifying punish game. Even if it's difficult, getting a disable feels too good. :3

 

[meleebrawler]

Many ways to kill =/= to a single extremely safe or extremely rewarding kill option. For example, Diddy's Banana to hoo hah (pre-nerf and sort of post-nerf) or fsmash is one of the overall best options in the game, part of why Diddy is so good. Likewise, ZSS paralyzer to up B or a smash is also safe and very effective. In a similar vein are Fox's jab-USmash, Luigi d-throw to aerial/down b, custom palutena d-throw to uair, Ness PK Fire to b-throw/bat, etc. Besides shadow ball, Mewtwo's only safe options for killing are dsmash, utilt to usmash, throws (which are nowhere near as good as Ness's bthrow), and, arguably his best option, edge guarding. That's definitely better than someone like Yoshi who requires a hard read or bad mistake, but it's definitely not good enough to warrant Mewtwo's being combo food and dying absurdly early. Mewtwo has a lot of problems, and I honestly hope he gets a weight/hitbox buff (more like basic correction because there's no excuse for these problems) in the next patch.

Still, there's some hope for Mewtwo and I LOVE playing as him because of his terrifying punish game. Even if it's difficult, getting a disable feels too good. :3

People have stopped complaining about Meta Knight's lame hitboxes a long time ago, you'll get used to it.
And again, it's only two moves that have deceptive hitboxes not in favour. Utilt with matching hitboxes coupled with
jab and dtilt would be an almost unbreakable defense, and uair is hurt more by the lack of speed than anything
(it's the only move Mewtwo has I feel is lackluster in it's purpose of comboing and juggling).

He may not have any truly guaranteed setups to kill, but he has safe ways to put them in bad situations
with dtilt and particularly jab which can get interesting follow-ups. Uncharged Shadow Balls also do a good job of slowing
down ground approaches and sometimes getting them into the air where his own aerials truly shine, and where his shadow
claw is truly fearsome. They're pivotal against faster opponents. And even if Mewtwo has to get punishes to really
get going, having a projectile and a reflector means he can almost always get those chances eventually (stupid needles).

In all of my battles with him, I never felt like I was helpless, even if the match was difficult. He has the tools he needs
to be successful, it's just that the margin of error is small.

And if they made Mewtwo heavier, his recovery would almost certainly be worse to compensate.

 

[Enoki]

People have stopped complaining about Meta Knight's lame hitboxes a long time ago, you'll get used to it.
And again, it's only two moves that have deceptive hitboxes not in favour. Utilt with matching hitboxes coupled with
jab and dtilt would be an almost unbreakable defense, and uair is hurt more by the lack of speed than anything
.

That's because MK's were more or less fixed in the next patch, and he shouldn't have long range anyway due to his lack of arms.
I'm already used to his moves, I can use them. But why *wouldn't* the club of his tail do damage? Also, again, it's not only two moves. You forget that the purple swipe on fair doesn't count as a hitbox, nor does the purple flash on his grab. Bair also suffers from a similar problem. It feels like poorly designed hitboxes/animations more than anything.
"Almost unbreakable defense" except for anyone who knows how to dash into shield, or roll, or airdodge->aerial, or has any sense of timing when approaching from the air. Sword characters would win. These moves are good, yes, but that's a major exaggeration. Mewtwo is pretty weak defensively.
Uair is actually quite good, once you get used to hit. It's one of my favorite moves for landing or for comboing into fair.

And if they made Mewtwo heavier, his recovery would almost certainly be worse to compensate.

Dedede , Yoshi, Rob and Wario say hello. As do Dr. Mario and Little Mac. Weight has no actual correlation to recovery ability.

Otherwise I agree with you. I'm not trying to argue your point that Mewtwo has definite good sides! I'm merely saying that his range and weight didn't need to be nerfed from melee; I believe that was a balancing oversight from the DLC team. There's a difference between a character being balanced and a character functioning as intended, for example Ganon. Mewtwo feels, in some aspects, like the development team rushed his hitboxes and overcompensated when deciding his weight. I could definitely be wrong, and a lack of changes wouldn't lead me to changing characters, but I think Mewtwo is deserving of some basic tweaking.
In the end, I'm just glad we have him at all! :3

 

[meleebrawler]

That's because MK's were more or less fixed in the next patch, and he shouldn't have long range anyway due to his lack of arms.
I'm already used to his moves, I can use them. But why *wouldn't* the club of his tail do damage? Also, again, it's not only two moves. You forget that the purple swipe on fair doesn't count as a hitbox, nor does the purple flash on his grab. Bair also suffers from a similar problem. It feels like poorly designed hitboxes/animations more than anything.
"Almost unbreakable defense" except for anyone who knows how to dash into shield, or roll, or airdodge->aerial, or has any sense of timing when approaching from the air. Sword characters would win. These moves are good, yes, but that's a major exaggeration. Mewtwo is pretty weak defensively.
Uair is actually quite good, once you get used to hit. It's one of my favorite moves for landing or for comboing into fair.


Dedede , Yoshi, Rob and Wario say hello. As do Dr. Mario and Little Mac. Weight has no actual correlation to recovery ability.

Otherwise I agree with you. I'm not trying to argue your point that Mewtwo has definite good sides! I'm merely saying that his range and weight didn't need to be nerfed from melee; I believe that was a balancing oversight from the DLC team. There's a difference between a character being balanced and a character functioning as intended, for example Ganon. Mewtwo feels, in some aspects, like the development team rushed his hitboxes and overcompensated when deciding his weight. I could definitely be wrong, and a lack of changes wouldn't lead me to changing characters, but I think Mewtwo is deserving of some basic tweaking.
In the end, I'm just glad we have him at all! :3

I never really noticed the Shadow Claw slash "blind spot", mostly because it's always had a tiny hitbox,
it's just placed further away in this game compared to Melee (not that Melee Shadow Claw couldn't be misleading
in it's own way...), and when you see your slash's range, getting the max distance is natural. And his bair looks fine to me as well, it's the relatively slow startup and Mewtwo sticking out his rear to be hit that gets me...

Dtilt, jab and utilt all have very little commitment, so getting punished for using them isn't common. Rolling
behind is easy to deal with outside of lag, and there aren't many characters who can airdodge -> attack without
getting mauled by usmash. That defence may not have been perfect, but it would be pretty polarizing, especially
if you have to be a sword character to challenge it directly.

Uair isn't bad by any means, I just wish it were a little faster since it's not like it's going to KO someone anytime
soon.

I know that there's no direct correlation between recovery and weight, but can you name one lightweight whose
recovery isn't good at least in distance?

I won't blame anyone who finds that his very low margin for error and hard matchups against top tiers make
him unviable in their eyes, I just feel that it's very possible for him to do it if someone is willing.

 

[Flamemaster96]

Same as for what I did for DK, Is someone able to name all the characters that counters Mew2, is evenish with Mew2 and characters that Mew2 can counter?

Hard Countered by:

Soft Countered by:

Slight Disadvantage:

Evenish:

Slight Advantage:

Soft Counters:

Hard Counters:

 

[Spirst]

Just a reminder to everyone that this thread will be transitioning from the general impressions period into more focused matchup discussion by the end of this week.

That said, is there a general consensus on who the first character discussed should be? I'm assuming Falcon is a character we should keep in mind considering the MU is popularized as a difficult one. Let me know what you guys think we should cover first and I'll use the most popular one as a starting point for this thread.

 

[Kalierdarke]

I think it's pretty confirmed Mario and Sheik are hard MUs for M2, I don't think I've heard of anyone having an easy time with them. Falcon has had mixed opinions on difficulty although mostly that it's a hard MU, but I would say that's mostly from the speed over anything, and would list Sonic for the same reason.

so IMO, Mario, Sheik, or Falcon should certainly be the first discussion.

 

[Chiroz]

Shouldn't easier match-ups be discussed first so that we can get more experience with the hard ones? I really don't know though.

 

[Kalierdarke]

Shouldn't easier match-ups be discussed first so that we can get more experience with the hard ones? I really don't know though.

Well, there's good points to all 3 sections being the first to be discussed, the hard MUs, the easy ones, and the close ones, which I think M2 has a lot more of.

 

[Chiroz]

Well, there's good points to all 3 sections being the first to be discussed, the hard MUs, the easy ones, and the close ones, which I think M2 has a lot more of.

I just feel like right now most of us don't actually know how to deal with the hard match-ups, so we would probably be discussing how they can punish us and stuff and "what to avoid" but probably most of us won't know what to do which will lead discussing nowhere. But I could be wrong.

 

[Kalierdarke]

I just feel like right now most of us don't actually know how to deal with the hard match-ups, so we would probably be discussing how they can punish us and stuff and "what to avoid" but probably most of us won't know what to do which will lead discussing nowhere. But I could be wrong.

Yeah.

The hard MUs right now, people will have an idea of where the problems are, but not to answer them
The easy MUs right now, people will know how to answer it and the discussion will be short.
The close MUs right now will probably be a lot more discussion, but also help more people as there's a better chance of strategies that allow wins.

So like I said, all of them have good reason to be discussed first, but also reason why they might best be saved. But we have to start somewhere.

 

[Karsticles]

Shouldn't easier match-ups be discussed first so that we can get more experience with the hard ones? I really don't know though.

I agree with this sentiment.

 

[Spirst]

Something else to keep in mind is we want to pick a character that has a decent amount of activity/popularity. If we were to do, say, Duck Hunt first, there's less a chance of input from Duck Hunt mains since only 4 exist and thus our discussion would be rather skewed. I'd be fine with discussing an easier matchup to get the ball rolling but we need to think carefully about who it should be.

 

[Chiroz]

Something else to keep in mind is we want to pick a character that has a decent amount of activity/popularity. If we were to do, say, Duck Hunt first, there's less a chance of input from Duck Hunt mains since only 4 exist and thus our discussion would be rather skewed. I'd be fine with discussing an easier matchup to get the ball rolling but we need to think carefully about who it should be.

Yea I think you're right, but it's hard to think of an easy match up for Mewtwo who is also a popular character, hehehe.

I'd say maybe the "undecided" match-ups might be easier to start with. Pac-Man, Ness, Falco, Rosalina, ZSS I think are all fairly debatable in terms of if the MU is in our advantage or if it's in theirs and they are all fairly popular characters.

Others I still don't have much experience but don't look as a "utterly destroyed" MU as Sheik/Fox/Mario (might even be on our favor) are chars like Dedede, Diddy Kong, Link, etc. Which are all also fairly popular I'd say.

 

[Kalierdarke]

Something else to keep in mind is we want to pick a character that has a decent amount of activity/popularity. If we were to do, say, Duck Hunt first, there's less a chance of input from Duck Hunt mains since only 4 exist and thus our discussion would be rather skewed. I'd be fine with discussing an easier matchup to get the ball rolling but we need to think carefully about who it should be.

Hey, I play duck hunt, granted it's my third character and I haven't played against a M2 with it yet =P

Amusingly even though it's my third, I think I'm better with DH >.> :edit: than my main and secondary, that is.

 

[Disgaea D2]

What is your opinion about Mewtwo vs G&W?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Same as for what I did for DK, Is someone able to name all the characters that counters Mew2, is evenish with Mew2 and characters that Mew2 can counter?

Hard Countered by:

Soft Countered by:

Slight Disadvantage:

Evenish:

Slight Advantage:

Soft Counters:

Hard Counters:

I think definate Hard Counters for Mewtwo are:

 

[Browny]

Rosalina is some mad bull**** but then again, I think shes bull**** to 95% of the cast.

Pikachu cant get grabbed half the time which can negate uthrow kills, very annoying.

I dont find falcon or fox overly hard, I just need to stop messing up edgeguards vs them. They can be auto-gimped with nair if you manage to space and time it right.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I actually think Rosalina is Mewtwo's best Top Tier matchup. I was surprised how well he can hold up, but it's still a disadvantage, about 60-40 I think.

 

[Chiroz]

Rosalina is some mad bull**** but then again, I think shes bull**** to 95% of the cast.

Pikachu cant get grabbed half the time which can negate uthrow kills, very annoying.

I dont find falcon or fox overly hard, I just need to stop messing up edgeguards vs them. They can be auto-gimped with nair if you manage to space and time it right.

Honestly, one of the things that Mewtwo NEEDS to have fixed is his first jab and his grab missing on overly small characters. About one third of the cast crouches after landing from an aerial which makes grabbing them or jabbing them impossible as it will miss which is complete bull****.

 

[meleebrawler]

Honestly, one of the things that Mewtwo NEEDS to have fixed is his first jab and his grab missing on overly small characters. About one third of the cast crouches after landing from an aerial which makes grabbing them or jabbing them impossible as it will miss which is complete bull****.

People have pretty much accepted this kind of thing from Wii Fit Trainer... it also doesn't hurt Mewtwo as
much as it could because lol dtilt (and you get better combos from it up close).

Try using jab 1 preemptively against jump-ins, it's got great disjoint that can beat characters with problematic
landings (ie Pikachu, Kirby). If they get too close for that then utilt/usmash instead.

 

[Chiroz]

People have pretty much accepted this kind of thing from Wii Fit Trainer... it also doesn't hurt Mewtwo as
much as it could because lol dtilt (and you get better combos from it up close).

Try using jab 1 preemptively against jump-ins, it's got great disjoint that can beat characters with problematic
landings (ie Pikachu, Kirby). If they get too close for that then utilt/usmash instead.

Using it preemptively isn't an option because the hitbox for their aerial is already out. D-Tilt won't land you a kill. So say an 150% small character can keep spamming an specific aerial and you won't have a legit kill option to punish with. Sure you can keep racking up damage but at that point there is not use.

Plus I am pretty sure Wii Fit Trainer doesn't have the problem even CLOSE to what Mewtwo has. Did you know that sometimes you can't grab Falcon, Zelda and many other characters if they are performing jab or various tilts/smashes if they have their backs towards you? The fact that they "lean in" very slightly while performing those attacks makes the hitbox miss even at point blank range at times.

 

[meleebrawler]

Using it preemptively isn't an option because the hitbox for their aerial is already out. D-Tilt won't land you a kill. So say an 150% small character can keep spamming an specific aerial and you won't have a legit kill option to punish with. Sure you can keep racking up damage but at that point there is not use.

If they keep spamming one aerial you should have faired them a long time ago. Mewtwo generally does
better at preempting attacks rather than waiting and punishing. It's not always easy to be sure since it does require
you to always be trying to think one step ahead of the opponent like many heavies, but if you think outside the box
with Mewtwo's options you can find a way.

 

[Chiroz]

If they keep spamming one aerial you should have faired them a long time ago. Mewtwo generally does
better at preempting attacks rather than waiting and punishing. It's not always easy to be sure since it does require
you to always be trying to think one step ahead of the opponent like many heavies, but if you think outside the box
with Mewtwo's options you can find a way.

Punishing an aerial isn't always as easy as you're making it sound. If it was then Yoshi wouldn't be a hard match-up now would it? He would also not be top tier, neither would Luigi be. People can spam certain aerials safely, its the "core" of most top tiers actually and it's what makes them top tier and the fact that Mewtwo has an added "I can't punish you when you're close to the ground" makes a whole new array of aerials "safe" to spam which in turn makes many more match-ups become much harder than they should be.

Mewtwo's grab range seems extremely bugged. Why should a grab miss on a jabbing Falcon?



I'll copy what I said before:

Plus I am pretty sure Wii Fit Trainer doesn't have the problem even CLOSE to what Mewtwo has. Did you know that sometimes you can't grab Falcon, Zelda and many other characters if they are performing jab or various tilts/smashes if they have their backs towards you? The fact that they "lean in" very slightly while performing those attacks makes the hitbox miss even at point blank range at times.



Also Wii Fit Trainer's grab/throw game isn't a core part of his kit. Neither is his Jab. For Mewtwo that's like 2 of his top 5 moves.

 

[AmishTechnology]

Rosalina probably is indeed one of M2's best MUs against the top5 solely because she isn't a speed demon. She suffers similar weaknesses to Mewtwo too.

Whoever we choose, I think it would be best for each character to have their own discussion topic, with 1-3 characters being the focus but people could continue discussing, say, Falcon on a separate older M2 v Falcon thread if they were to suddenly find new strides.