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Pokétch App: Damage Calculator - A look at key KO percents

Myollnir

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RISK/REWARD AND KEY KO PERCENTS




How to use:


This is for all of you who've worked so hard to mindgame the crap out of your opponent to land that sexy Ivysaur u-smash only to have your opponent survive. This data shouldn't be memorized, but rather if you're having trouble with a specific matchup, this might be a good thing to take a look at and keep in mind.

Why does this matter? Move decay is very noticeable in Brawl, and you want to save your KO moves for when they'll actually KO. If you land Charizard's u-smash at 5% before it's guaranteed to KO, that move is now staler, and won't kill for even longer. If you had waited for another 5%, that u-smash would have meant the stock. Also, most KO moves are punishable, and you don't want to risk leaving yourself open when the reward if you hit won't even get the KO.

Judging the risk-reward factor of an action is important in Brawl, especially for high risk moves such as smashes. To consider every aspect in judging risk-reward requires too much thought to be done in a real match. However, one important and easily analyzed factor is whether KO moves will actually KO. Moves like the u-smashes that only kill off the top are relatively simple, as you only have your opponents DI to consider. Moves without a strictly vertical trajectory are more complicated, as you have to think about where you are on the stage as well. The optimal DI for a vertical launch is horizontally. For any other move, optimal DI would be towards the corner of the stages. It's fairly easy to achieve perfect DI for vertical launches, but significantly harder to be perfect at aiming for the corner.

Analyzing Pokemon Trainer in this way has the added variable of fatigue. Each move has 8 values listed per matchup, because there are three parameters to consider when making your decision: stage, fatigue, and opponent's DI. The tested values were chosen to provide a good range for each parameter. If you're at the third transformation of Castle Siege and you're on the side that's tilted up, you know that you'll KO a few percentage points before you would on FD. If you're just barely fatigued (80% power) you know that you'll kill before you would at full fatigue, but after you would unfatigued. Lastly, if you suspect that your opponent will mess up their DI, you might try to land the move before the DI percentages shown. Your own percentage is something to consider as well. Each time you attempt to land a move you need to make a judgement call - if you're at 110% as Ivysaur and Snake has to miss his DI and forget to momentum cancel in order for u-smash to KO, you're probably better off choosing a safer option.

Moves with trajectories that are not purely horizontal are more complicated. As mentioned before, it is more difficult to DI these moves perfectly. This means that even though a KO may not be guaranteed with Squirtle's d-throw, for example, you might still use it anyways and hope that your opponent doesn't DI perfectly. Think about the skill of your opponent and how much experience he might have against Pokemon Trainer. If he doesn't know the exact trajectory of Squirtle's d-throw, it is much more likely that he won't use optimal DI. Where you are on the stage is also a factor - obviously if you get the grab on the edge of the stage your opponent is forced to DI up more, and may be killed off the top sooner than if you get the grab in the centre.




What these values mean:


All of these values listed have already taken into account momentum cancelling, since it's reasonable to expect that your opponent will be able to buffer and fast fall an aerial consistently. DI or NO DI refers only to the direction your opponent is sent, not on whether he momentum cancels. These were not done in training mode, and all values are assuming the move is fresh. Fatigued values are taken at full fatigue (ie- 70% of your unfatigued power), so keep in mind that if you're just barely fatigued you will kill somewhere between fatigued and unfatigued values. Halberd was chosen because it has the lowest ceiling of the common legal stages - all testing was done while the stage was on the ship itself (not the moving platform). Final Destination was used because its ceiling has the same height as many common stages. Taken from Thinkaman's Project Vertical, common stage ceiling heights are:

100/97/93 - Jungle Japes
88/84/78/67 - Luigi's Mansion
85 - Pirate Ship
84 - Pictochat
83/75 - Pokemon Stadium 2
82/75/68 - Battlefield
82 - Final Destination
82 - Delfino Plaza
82/74/67 - Norfair
82/75 - Yoshi's Island
82/74 - Lylat Cruise
82, 88, 81 - Castle Siege
82/74 - Smashville
81, 77 - Frigate
81/74/68 - Brinstar
77/75/68, 73/65 - Halberd
75 - Rainbow Cruise
75 - Green Greens

...where numbers separated by slashes denote different platform heights, while numbers separated by commas denote different stage transformations.

Note that on Rainbow Cruise when you're on the boat the ceiling is actually comparable to Halberd's. Also, Pictochat and Pirate Ship have ceilings that are just slightly higher than Final Destination.

One important thing to note: I tested these values myself, inputting both the KO move and optimal DI. When I reached a percent where I was no longer able to survive, I wrote this number down as the data presented. Since I was inputting for both characters, it's entirely possible I messed up the DI and your opponent may be able to survive even at the percents shown here. This, combined with the fact that Brawl keeps track of fractional percents, means that these values should not be considered as completely accurate. However, if you add 2-3% on to each number, I'd be very surprised if your opponent survives then.



The Data:


I chose eight of the more common characters in today's scene. Values on each stage are given with DI and with no DI (but still with momentum cancelling). Numbers in the grey boxes show KO percents when fully fatigued.






 

T-block

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Hah that was my 1337th post

I probably won't need this spot, but whatever. So...useful enough to continue or no? I think if I continue, for the vertical kill moves I'm gonna drop Diddy and Falco. I didn't realize until near the end that Marth, Diddy and Falco have very similar launch resistances, so testing all three is redundant.
 

Zigsta

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T-block, this is AMAZING. Very, very handy, and you did a nice job on the chart to boot.

I will definitely use this in future matches.
 

T-block

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I have no idea how I'm gonna test non-vertical kill moves... anyone have a suggestion? I was thinking edge of Battlefield and centre of FD or something, but I don't know what the relative stage boundaries look like for the side blastzones.

I was gonna do Charizard u-smash/Squirtle u-smash next, since they're easier to test =x
 

Steeler

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it's kind of sad that the strongest up smash in the game starts killing dedede at 124% after 2 minutes or less
 

T-block

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thanks brah

steeler's right though - 1:20 before showing signs is usually what i say... that's one attack every two seconds, but that's at 80% power. it's just over 2 mins before you're fatigued to 70% power, which is what the chart shows.
 

T-block

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I'll do it. I had about a page written on psychological aspects of fatigue, but I never posted it because I'm not too sure about some of the things I said. With a bit of reworking it might be an OK read... I'll see.

If you're just looking for the mechanics of fatigue though, I have all I know in the Oak's Laboratory thread ;D
 

Zigsta

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Wait wait wait..."psychological"? Like...how it makes Pokemon Trainer mains feel to have their Pokemon fatigued? :p
 

T-block

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You heard it here first.

How fatigue affects a player's mindset, why it's a bad thing, and how you should approach it. I've done a lot of thinking about it, but I don't know how good any of my conclusions are.
 

PokemonMasterIRL

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You heard it here first.

How fatigue affects a player's mindset, why it's a bad thing, and how you should approach it. I've done a lot of thinking about it, but I don't know how good any of my conclusions are.
Post it in the BR, im sure we will give you a lot of solid feed back, and then you can post something you are really confident about on the boards.
 

Buuda

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Great thread. I'd love to see more of this, even though I like to stay away from Ivy. XD
Seeing more charts like this would be ridiculously helpful and much appreciated! Great work!
 

Myollnir

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Sorry for the bump, but I was wondering if you're interesting in knowing the USmash KO % with Squirtle & Charizard. I think this thread is really useful and I wish it was continued so I thought "why not contribute by myself?"

I started to test, and it's really annoying, especially with the tired values. Charizard is actually pretty annoying to test because of the multi-hit USmash.

[IMPORTANT] Notes :
- I didn't test the "No DI" value because I don't think it really matters.
- The Charizard values may be overestimated because I really used the best DI and it's difficult to do it in a real match without avoiding the 2nd hit.
- These are the % without adding the % given by the USmash.
- The Halberd values were tested on the lowest place of the main platform.
- Margin of error : ~1-2% for Snake&Marth, ~1-3% for their tired values ; for other characters, ~1-2% for the fresh/FD value, ~1-5% for other values.
- ~1-2% means I double-checked the value ; the tired values are difficult to test so I might messed up them (that's why it's ~1-3%) ; ~1-5% means it's an estimation based on the previous results of the relation between both values -> you can't really trust it, but it give you a precise idea of the KO %.

So, here's what I got :

Squirtle :

- Vs Snake :
* Final Destination
Fresh : 135%
Fully Tired : 195%
* Halberd
Fresh : 126%
Fully Tired : 182%

- Vs Marth :
* Final Destination
Fresh : 108%
Fully Tired : 154%
* Halberd
Fresh : 101%
Fully Tired : 144%

- Vs King DeDeDe
* Final Destination
Fresh : 144%
Fully Tired : 207%
* Halberd
Fresh : 135%
Fully Tired : 194%

- Vs Wario
* Final Destination
Fresh : 115%
Fully Tired : 165%
* Halberd
Fresh : 107%
Fully Tired : 154%

- Vs Metaknight
* Final Destination
Fresh : 97%
Fully Tired : 140%
* Halberd
Fresh : 91%
Fully Tired : 131%

- Vs Mr. Game & Watch
* Final Destination
Fresh : 92%
Fully Tired : 132%
* Halberd
Fresh : 86%
Fully Tired : 124%



Charizard :

- Vs Snake :
* Final Destination
Fresh : 145%
Fully Tired : 204%
* Halberd
Fresh : 134%
Fully Tired : 186%

- Vs Marth :
* Final Destination
Fresh : 118%
Fully Tired : 171%
* Halberd
Fresh : 108%
Fully Tired : 159%

- Vs King DeDeDe
* Final Destination
Fresh : 156%
Fully Tired : 223%
* Halberd
Fresh : 144%
Fully Tired : 206%

- Vs Wario
* Final Destination
Fresh : 130%
Fully Tired : 186%
* Halberd
Fresh : 120%
Fully Tired : 172%

- Vs Metaknight
* Final Destination
Fresh : 106%
Fully Tired : 152%
* Halberd
Fresh : 98%
Fully Tired : 140%

- Vs Mr. Game & Watch
* Final Destination
Fresh : 101%
Fully Tired : 145%
* Halberd
Fresh : 93%
Fully Tired : 133%


If you don't care, that's bad :(
But anyway I'll continue it because to me, it's useful.

Update :
20/12/11 : Wario
21/12/11 : Metaknight
22/12/11 : Mr. G&W
 

Myollnir

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Yup ^^
I know it's less powerful in training mode

Edit : Oh, I just saw that you tested Ivy's USmash on the ship of Halberd... The problem is that I tested on the moving platform because it's where the ceiling is the highest, so I thought it was better because we could be sure that it would kill at those % no matter where you are :/

Edit2 : Ok, from now on I'm just testing the fresh value on FD. I just saw that the relations between the values are similar, so just use them to find the tired values and the fresh value on Halberd. So I may be wrong (~1-5% max) but with the time I gain, I will be able to test other killmoves (I prefer the ones which kills from the top, because they're easier to test). When I finish the USmash, I'll test Ivy's DA & UThrow, I guess.
 

Myollnir

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Sorry for the double post...
I added Wario and MK. Next one is G&W. After that, I'll be able to do :
- Ivy's UThrow
- Ivy's DA
- Charizard's UThrow
- Charizard's DSmash
I don't think Squirtle has any moves that kill from the top :/
I think I'll do moves like Squirtle's DThrow, Ivy's BThrow, Charizard's DThrow from the center of DF + from the edge.
You can choose which move's the next one, but I think I'm currently alone on the board :p
 

T-block

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The reason for testing on the deck of Halberd is because the ceiling is the lowest there, so that gives a range. If you want to find the value for the moving platform, you can just add like... 4% or so =x

But yeah, the idea is approximate anyways, so approximations are still much better than nothing.
 

Myollnir

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I don't even know wtf it is (.psd), but I think it'd be good to make an image which associate a character with a colour (ex : DDD -> Red) and a colour would mean a KO % (ex : Red -> 150%). The red will go until... idk.. Charizard? And then it'd be orange (~130% for example). And we'd do that with each killmove.

I know I'm not clear at all so I don't know if you see what I mean.

It'd be easier to learn the approx. KO %, because I doubt we'll learn all the numbers.

I hope you understand the idea, if not I'll try to rephrase it :/
 

Myollnir

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Both USmashes are done.

Approximate KO % :

Squirtle's U-Smash | Final Destination | Halberd
Character | Fresh / Tired | Fresh / Tired

King DeDeDe | 145% / 205% | 135% / 195%
Snake | 135% / 195% | 125% / 185%
Wario | 115% / 165% | 105% / 155%
Marth | 110% / 155% | 100% / 145%
MetaKnight | 95% / 140% | 90% / 130%
Mr.Game&Watch | 90% / 130% | 85% / 125%

Ivysaur's U-Smash | Final Destination | Halberd
Character | Fresh / Tired | Fresh / Tired

King DeDeDe | 95% / 140% | 85% / 130%
Snake | 90% / 135% | 80% / 120%
Wario | 80% / 120% | 70% / 100%
Marth | 70% / 110% | 60% / 95%
MetaKnight | 65% / 100% | 60% / 90%
Mr.Game&Watch | 60% / 90% | 50% / 80%

Charizard's U-Smash | Final Destination | Halberd
Character | Fresh / Tired | Fresh / Tired

King DeDeDe | 155% / 225% | 145% / 205%
Snake | 145% / 205% | 135% / 185%
Wario | 130% / 185% | 120% / 170%
Marth | 120% / 170% | 110% / 160%
MetaKnight | 105% / 150% | 100% / 140%
Mr.Game&Watch | 100% / 145% | 95% / 130%

It doesn't seem too inaccurate IMO.
Remember, these numbers are only approximations, if you know your opponen't has a really good DI, you might need a Jab or another move to secure the kill if they're at these numbers or a bit lower.
But I think you can actually rely on these numbers, since the DI isn't easy at all for the awesome U-Smashes of PT.
Any suggestions?

The next move is... Ivysaur's UThrow! I'll try to finish it today. I'll be away for ~4 days then. And then, I'll try Squirtle's and Charizard's DThrow (I'll test it from a FRoll away from the edge).

- Vs King DeDeDe
* Final Destination
Fresh : 212%
Fully Tired : 290%
* Halberd
Fresh : 195%
Fully Tired : 266%

- Vs Mr. Game & Watch
* Final Destination
Fresh : 137%
Fully Tired : 190%
* Halberd
Fresh : 123%
Fully Tired : 149%

- Vs Metaknight
* Final Destination
Fresh : 146%
Fully Tired : 203%

- Vs Wario
* Final Destination
Fresh : 175%
Fully Tired : 238%

- Vs Snake
* Final Destination
Fresh : 198%
Fully Tired : 274%

- Vs Marth
* Final Destination
Fresh : 167%
Fully Tired : 231%



Ivysaur's U-Throw | Final Destination
Character | Fresh / Tired

King DeDeDe | 215% / 290%
Snake | 200% / 275%
Wario | 175% / 240%
Marth | 170% / 230%
MetaKnight | 145% / 205%
Mr.Game&Watch | 140% / 190%

Squirtle's D-Throw | Final Destination
Character | Fresh / Tired

King DeDeDe | 175% / 230%
Snake | 165% / 215%
Wario | 145% / 190%
Marth | 140% / 180%
MetaKnight | 130% / 170%
Mr.Game&Watch | 135% / 180%
 

T-block

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Ivy's u-throw is actually a super important one. There are so many times when I land the grab and Ivysaur and decided to u-throw instead of b-throw, only to have them barely live.
 

Myollnir

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Yeah, I'll actually do each Pokémon's killmove throw, the one you'll have to save for the KO, because it actually helps a lot to have a killmove throw.
Also, I'm sorry, I don't think I'll be able to finish Ivy's U-Throw today, I'll hopefully do 1/2 more characters, but I'll finish when I come back from my holiday :)

Edit : Ok, G&W done, so you basically know the minimum % and the maximum % with DDD & him.
U-Throw is pretty easy to test, so I might be wrong, but not by more than 1% :)
I'll be back on monday :)
 

Myollnir

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Double post :(
I finished Ivy's U-Throw, and I didn't tested on Halberd because it's boring/long/difficult, and it's not very useful to learn the Halberd values. However, I'm learning the FD values.
Next one is : Squirtle DThrow!
Where do you want me to test it? Edge of FD? Middle? Middle of SV/BF? Other?
 

CoonTail

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You should try middle, 2/3 distance in both directions, and the edge since it will help us to know how much more % we will need for each position on stage. This also could help us to make decisions such as should I go for GR -> Jab 1, Jab 2 -> Trip -> Re-grab to get the opponent closer to a set position for my D-throw to kill.

I <3 you for doing this Myo this is something that will need to be reference more often.
 

Myollnir

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Well tbh I'm not sure I'll do more than 1 situation, because it's long, and DIing horizontally is difficult. I was thinking of rolling from the edge with the characters getting grabbed.
But I can do it with characters like Marth & Wario (a mid-light and a mid-heavy) to give you an idea.
I know, I'm lazy :awesome:
 

CoonTail

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Hey Myo your putting in a lot of working doing this anyway so do w.e you can since I appreciate any new info I can get!
 

Myollnir

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Lol yeah I need to stop being lazy :p
I'm starting right now, with Squirtle's DThrow on MK.

Btw, if Squirtle manages to pivotgrab (or roll+grab) Popo/DDD/maybe other chars to the edge, the DThrow send them to the wrong direction, but with the same knockback lol

Note : I roll from the edge of FD with the character, then grab with Squirtle and DThrow.

Mr Game & Watch :
Fresh : 137%
Fully Tired : 183%
DI : No DI + Bucket

Metaknight :
Fresh : 129%
Fully Tired : 168%
DI : No DI + Jump

Marth :
Fresh : 140%
Fully Tired : 182%
DI : No DI + Jump

Wario :
Fresh : 145%
Fully Tired : 189%
DI : Up

Snake :
Fresh : 167%
Fully Tired : 217%
DI : Up

King DeDeDe :
Fresh : 177%
Fully Tired : 233%
DI : Up

Edit : Omg, I just realized that I got better results with no DI + momentum cancel + FF + Jump/Momentum reset...

Hmm, the way to DI correctly seems to change according to the character... DIing Up seems to be the best way to DI with DDD...
I have to redo all the values .________.

Done.
 

Myollnir

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Yeah, with the best DI I can. And by DI, I include momentum cancel, etc...
Mayyyybe the MK can DI down or something then BSide reverse, but we could kill him during his helpless state anyway.
 
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