Pokédex Entry: Snake

[CoonTail]

Ok guys since this thread went cold again lets move onto the next matchup.....SNAKE!!

I'll be back in a bit to talk about this because we all know there is A LOT of ground to cover here

 

[Geenareeno]

Okay after searching though old information, I have found this post.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11028618&postcount=30



And here is a vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNXeA8laU6o

 

[CoonTail]

Okay after searching though old information, I have found this post.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11028618&postcount=30



And here is a vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNXeA8laU6o

Wow I really glad you managed to find that and pull it back up Geenareeno because it really was old school PT main matchup knowledge that the Snake v. PT matchup was real close to even. Theres just so much to it to explain it but in short the quick rundown of this is......

Squirtle v. Snake

-Squirtle's jab is fast enough to clink with all of snake's big tilts and overall is a very annoying option for snake player's to deal with.

-Squirtle's f-tilt serves as an aid to our hit and run game along with extending some reach, while squirtles u-tilt serves as the same entity it does in every matchup....a combo starter especially since snake is heavy.

-Watergun camping like we saw in the video is an incredibly effective way to not only scare snake with his own grenades....but also to just maintain stage control and the grenades squirtle needs proper use of watergun. And as always we have silly SD options if you manage to watergun a snake already inputting buttons who gets pushed offstage.

-Squirtle's aerial mobility is much better than snake's so it allows for use to really weave in and out making it difficult for snake to hit us. With the aerial mobility squirtle has plus his aerial attacks you can put alot of pressure on snake.

-Hydroplanning tactics work well against snake as long as you mix them in properly. We all know the force and power of snake's tilts and the stopping power they have against hydroplaning, so if you mix in hydroplanes and reverse shifts you can bait out tilts or catch snake as he is attempting to pluck a grenade.

-Squirtle's big worry about snake is just how damn well snake can shut down a grounded approach. Snake's tilts seriously outrange Squirtle's tilts and while hydroplaning can help overall snake's tilt game is something you have to play around in this matchup. It really is hit and run in this matchup because if you continue to follow up on snake you'll just end up running clear into a tilt.

Ivy V. Snake

-Ivy's b-air is the god send here because b-air is outside the reach of up-tilt and will usually beat it out since b-air has 2 hits. N-air is similar to squirtle's up-tilt in this matchup since it is where most of Ivy's combos start. Up-air is actually and awesome kill tool in this matchup figuring it's usually fresh from not being a major option. F-air and d-air are more defensive options....using f-air over the ledge to keep snake back....and using d-air and its enormus hitbox to keep snake struggling if he is trying to recover.

-Razor leaf is a necesity in this matchup but on the same not is NOT something to be spammed against snake. Razor leaf is awesome here because it is another way to handle grenades....as you'll see each poke has a way to deal with them and this is Ivy's. Throwing razor leafs at a snake that likes to use the grenade shielding tactic is a great way to force his shield to crumble. Razor leaf will also hit grenades and stop their horizontal movement. Overall razor leaf handles grenades well.

-Bullet seed......can be a bit gimmicky in other matchups but is straight match changing here, because snake ends up taking a huge portion of damage if he gets hit by this. Mix it in carefully though because punishes deffinitly will follow if you wiff a razor leaf.

-Lastly Ivy's tilts get the major shout out here......using f-tilt to stop mortar slides or using up-tilt to avoid them( and no not to be flashy in a large amount of cases snake's dont even attempt to not completely make it obvious when they are gonna mortar slide) D-tilt is another great option for Ivy to handle mortar slides.

-Snake's strong point against Ivy is her weakness to fire and being offstage. Grenades and nikita's can kill you way earlier than expected due to the fire weakness which up's knockback on Ivy. So that kinda knockback plus the knockback snake's tilts have all can leave Ivy offstage struggling to recover.

Charizard V. Snake

-So to hit my first major point thats each pokes way of dealing with grenades and Zard's way is through flamethrower. Flamethrower will actually push the grenades back and won't cause them to explode right off them bat. This can set up a rough sitation for snake since you now have created a wall of fire with grenades close to one end of it about it explode.

-Zard's aerials are pretty impressive in this matchup since you have to play back a bit against snake. Zard's b-air can keep snake at bay, while f-air is a great way to force snake into being offstage and causing him to take a large amount of punishment as he attempts to recover.

-Zard has one major worry and that is snake's grab game because a down throw on us and our terrible roll is the weak point of this matchup. As you saw in the vid reflex chose to lay on the ground as oppsed to getting up. Thats due to snake's ability to jus regrab zard as soon as he gets up. We are better off just taking the damage from a jab or in worse shape an up-tilt. Zard's grab game plays a large roll here to, The Mata combo does apply to snake so b-throw, b-throw, n-air to d-tilt is always a nice opener. but since snake has enormus hitboxes on tilts you must grab with caution.

 

[T-block]

You're getting ahead of me, Ice **** x.x

Moved to a separate thread.

I'll provide input later.

 

[Ingoro]

I should give input on this to, but my info tends to be incorrect and rather inaccurate sometimes so I'm gonna take a good sit for this one.

 

[CoonTail]

You're getting ahead of me, Ice **** x.x

Moved to a separate thread.

I'll provide input later.

Lol sorry T-block man but I gotta keep things moving around here and constantly stay active. We have some fresh names along with some old names making there way around here so I wanna keep this up.

Lol I said it before and I'll say it again......the dynamic of these boards has changed in a great way and I want to do all I can to aid and motivate this to keep all of our info fresh.

 

[CoonTail]

Im sure we can dig up that old info and place it here too T-block but we really need to recreate a matchup thread so if I have control of this then I think Ill change the opening page around to make it more suitable that way we can have a current up to date list with info from the metagame now.

 

[CoonTail]

A bit of information I forgot to post here after I had a chat with apsol at KTAR 5.......Zard's D-air outranges snake's u-tilt.....this is a major option people. I still have been waiting to friendly snake and try this out.

 

[T-block]

lol wtf

zard's d-air is also mega slow. and then if he shields it you're going to get u-tilted anyways.

 

[CoonTail]

Yea but the point is that we have options against snake coming out of the air. Obviously him shielding is gonna be an option but do you really think snake knows that his u-tilt gets beat by zard's d-air. Zard is a character that makes snake's feel confident so him throwing a u-tilt out when your coming down is not really something that doesnt occur normally for me, so this seems like a nice new tool for the snake matchup

 

[T-block]

Frame data time:

Snake's u-tilt hits on frame 6.

But that doesn't even matter because...

Charizard's d-air hits on frame 18.

Like...that's really slow. Relying on Snake being overconfident and making a bad decision is not relevant to a matchup discussion imo, especially when that decision is a greedy one, as shielding would lead to a u-tilt anyways at higher percents, or a grab a lower percents. And 18 frames is trivial to shield on reaction.

 

[CoonTail]

Jesus I really did not know that u-tilt from snake was that fast and same applies for Zard's d-air being that slow.

But either way I deff understand your point T-block I just still would like to explore this option to see where it has use....because cant you auto cancel d-air via full hop anyway?

 

[T-block]

Oh, I'm all up for exploring options. It's just that this option has no theorycraft supporting it. It's a risky choice that will could easily get you grabbed in a matchup where getting grabbed is devastating, and requires the Snake to be making risky choices in a matchup where he doesn't need to take risks.

I thought about autocancel d-air on full hop, but that's when the speed factor comes in. You put yourself in u-tilt range way before the d-air can come out.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Personally I prefer not being Charizard in those situations.

If only switch worked in the air.

 

[Killanator90]

Whats the best way to approach snake with zard

 

[Ingoro]

You have to wait for an opening, I go for risky stuff like doing a running grab while they are still holding a nade.

 

[Kith]

I have so much to say about this...I'll write it tomorrow :-D

 

[CoonTail]

Yea same here Kith I have gone back and finally got a chance to play this matchup again and there are A LOT of things that need to be known about the snake vs. pt matchup.

Oh btw I am almost 100% sure luis got Ally to admit snake PT is only -1 for PT

 

[Geenareeno]

Because Squirtle ***** him so hard.

 

[CoonTail]

Well that and the fact that with proper play both Zard and Ivy really can play solid roles here which is what makes this matchup only -1 for us or any matchup for that matter. If Ivy and Zard can play a role then our matchups get closer and closer to positive.

 

[Kith]

Alright, so I'm going to do as best a write up of my take on Squirtle vs Snake as I can.

With Squirtle, if you can get an early grab, you are almost guaranteed to get a good amount of damage, and here's why.

I've heard a few things about Squirtle's "chaingrab", and that it's not really one. But the fact of the matter is (unless something's changed in the time I've been gone), it is a chain grab against Snake for all intents and purposes. I was even able to do it against Ally. When I get a grab, I tend to get them as close to the ledge as possible. In fact, it's probably safe to say that my mindset when playing Snake is to get him to the ledge, because that's where the fun begins.

Snake really doesn't have many options when he's hanging on the ledge or falling towards you. Let's say that Snake is falling towards you, somewhere near the ledge. Think about it systematically. Snake can airdodge, backair, f-air, up-air, d-air, or grenade. The thing is, all of these options can be countered by just doing an empty hop and seeing how he reacts.

If you watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyfdswyMytk&feature=related#t=04m00s at around 4:00, you'll see kind of what I'm talking about. Empty hop, Keep your distance, and see how he reacts, and punish. It's how I do the majority of my damage to Snake. (You can see that with all my videos against Tekk actually. That's my main strat).

Although grenades, at first, seem to ruin this strategy, they really don't. A well spaced F-air or B-air will hit Snake without blowing up the grenade. It's very beautiful .

Watergun! Watergun stops grenades, and moves Snake to the ledge! Exactly what, as Squirtle, you should be trying to do. When Snake is actually on the ledge, he doesn't have many options (At least, many options that won't be covered by doing the exact same empty hop strat). I know Reflex is fond of throwing Snake upwards (at least, I gather that from his vids), I really feel that moving him horizontally sets him up for more damage. Snake does have a major vulnerability under him though, and that should definitely be exploited. On average though, I do more damage by throwing him off the stage and watching him struggle to get back on, than throwing him up.

(Would love to hear Reflex's opinion on this).

Watch for F-tilt or Jab kill opportunities with Snake http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW0iCXwExAE&feature=related#t=01m10s (I didn't actually kill him. I think it was because we were just doing friendlies...or I messed up lol). I wouldn't say thhese present themselves often, but they do (on occassion) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1f2g04T3m4#t=05m13s

Obviously, watch out for Up-tilt. It kills Squirtle at ridiculous percentages. If you're at Death Percentage, get him to the ledge, then attack. Use water gun to push him off the stage. Water gun shield pokes, so aim for his head while he's shielding (he'll still move if his head is poking out). The main thing is to not be too quick to throw out an attack. Wait for him to do it first. If he doesn't, then throw out a F-air. You can b-air before he finishes air dodging XD.

 

[CoonTail]

Word Kith back in full force with an awesome write up on Snake, but I just had a few key points I wanted to chime in one.

1. Squirtle's CG: This is legit on heavy characters/ some fast fallers between 0-5% so there is not much margin of error, the fun fact here is though that from 6-15% if heavy/fastfaller DI's back and doesn't tech( and yes even in 2011 everyone misses the tech because they don't think it will cause you to hit the ground) it's a free jab lock setup which will leave you able to grab snake next to the ledge.
I also saw the metagame minute on slide shield canceling which makes me wonder if this will give squirtle's f-throw the ability to be a legit CG?

2. Water gun: All of kith's info is correct but another big point to watch is to see if the snake likes to cook the grenades. Since watergun is very similar to Zard's flame thrower against grenades, but has the ability to actually push the grenades back at snake. So if he starts cooking the grenades predict his throw patterns with water guns to punish his nade throw because pending on the distance it leaves snake little time to not have the nade blow up in his face.

3. Snake's U-tilt, jab, and f-tilt: All three of these can be clinked by squirtle's jab, filt, and some odd options like d-smash. This means that when in close quaters these options will stuff his moves and get us away from death. Recently at Fatality I managed to d-smash out of shield and clink JRugs u-tilt, afterwords I was able to scurry away to later get the kill. Now you have to be careful though because attempting to follow up clinks with Snake has never worked well for me, so it's better to clink -> get out of f-tilt/jab/u-tilt range and punish if snake throws an attack out.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Out of all of the times the "ekans" joke for snake has been made on swf, this is the one time that it would have been appropriate. I'm disappointed.

 

[Kith]

Out of all of the times the "ekans" joke for snake has been made on swf, this is the one time that it would have been appropriate. I'm disappointed.

Lol this is the PT board. That joke has been used way too much already.

 

[CoonTail]

ohhh gottum

 

[Myollnir]

Speaking of metagame minute, Squirtle's jab1 and jab2 causes an edgeslip, which allow you to fall of the platform and jab lock (it works on some characters, I think you can see the list on VGBC's site). Of course you can do it after a ground release on the plateform.
Situational, but still useful.