Platforms and You

Crackle

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ZZZobac
#1
Lets talk about some common current metagame situations around platforms.



Subject A: Your opponent is above you on a platform. What do you do?

One big mistake climbers eventually make on all stages is fullhop aerials. In the current metagame, every strong player relies on baiting climbers to do this and it is hardly pretty. You need to be scared of this option unless you are Ally's Snake (then just feel a little less scared).


So lets think of better options:

(1) Shorthop uair
Why: Staying under the opponent is key. Doing otherwise will have you juggled. This is common to all characters I can think of (but not as much for mk).
Problem: Your hand goes above the platform and this can be punished (looking at you again mk)

(2) Shorthop airdodge
Why: To bait. To see the opponent's plan or even punish its failure afterwards.

(3) Shorthop nair
Why: This is the strongest offensive gimmick currently being used. It either hits the opponent and knocks them down for a grab or it hits shield and they fall into an iceblock that forces getup for grab.

(4) Stand there
Why not! As long as your opponent is expecting something it gives them a little more thinking to do. Maybe they will get jumpy and do something lesser than they were ready to do the moment you could have jumped.



Subject B: Nana is above you and too content with it to get down

As we all know nana gets left on platforms as a very common accidental desync.
This sucks, and is one of those situations where IC players tend to say "well gg this stock" if the opponent is up there too.

But lets talk about dealing with this situation in a different way than using an aerial to defend nana.
If she is above you and standing there, she is listening to your next input. Jumping and uairing, thus, will jump her even farther up where characters like mk will be happy to escort her to RIP. Furthermore, your jump uair will, even if connecting, hit the opponent toward her.



But from experience I can tell you a couple things GOOD about nana up there. If you get comfortable with this situation, I feel like you can make it one of the stronger positions.


Situation 1: You are standing on battlefield at the bottom and nana is on the platform above. Your opponent is marth or mk and does a fullhop fair on nana. What can you do?

My current best guess is to (1) shield early (for nana) and (2) grab or drop and bair/blizzard depending on where the opponent is.


Situation 2: Your opponent is trying to land on stage from high offstage but Nana is above you. Get her down, right?

Well, think about it this way, the opponent has to land on either you (ground) or Nana (platform). Either way can net a probable shieldgrab. Still want nana to come down?



Idea: Is putting Nana on a platform on purpose ever a good idea like in the above situation?
If so, how do we do that quickly and what do we do with it?
 

DeLux

@ChaseTheLux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,279
Location
Long Beach, CA
#2
Hmmmm... maybe I'll post some thoughts on this topic along with some of the new 2013 technology been working on in the lab :p


Lets talk about some common current metagame situations around platforms.



Subject A: Your opponent is above you on a platform. What do you do?

One big mistake climbers eventually make on all stages is fullhop aerials. In the current metagame, every strong player relies on baiting climbers to do this and it is hardly pretty. You need to be scared of this option unless you are Ally's Snake (then just feel a little less scared).


So lets think of better options:

(1) Shorthop uair
Why: Staying under the opponent is key. Doing otherwise will have you juggled. This is common to all characters I can think of (but not as much for mk).
Problem: Your hand goes above the platform and this can be punished (looking at you again mk)

(2) Shorthop airdodge
Why: To bait. To see the opponent's plan or even punish its failure afterwards.

(3) Shorthop nair
Why: This is the strongest offensive gimmick currently being used. It either hits the opponent and knocks them down for a grab or it hits shield and they fall into an iceblock that forces getup for grab.

(4) Stand there
Why not! As long as your opponent is expecting something it gives them a little more thinking to do. Maybe they will get jumpy and do something lesser than they were ready to do the moment you could have jumped.
I strongly disagree with the notion that going for a full hop is a negative. On a lot of stages against an opponent that is camping (MK), it's often your best bet to net a grab especially when playing from behind. A more complete or accurate assessment of what you're saying is that many ICs get baited for over committing or making a technical input error in the air too often and get punished for it. Pretty much committing to an aerial on shield on a platform is asking to pray that it shield pokes or ledge slips because if not, you're getting hit if the player knows what they are doing. So that situation occurs regardless if you SH or FH your aerials.

The negative thing I notice would be that too many ICs are fishing for Uair punishes in situations and percents they should be leveraging the punish for grab attempts. FH meaty Nair can combo into grab if done correctly at certain percents depending on the character. On some stages the ledge slip to ice shot reset is a factor like you said. IC could leverage their double jump for Fair, especially if the option is there to send Nana only via a desynced option so Popo can cover from below

So rather than think of FHing aerials as a negative, the negative is hitting on people's shield like it's your job.


Subject B: Nana is above you and too content with it to get down

As we all know nana gets left on platforms as a very common accidental desync.
This sucks, and is one of those situations where IC players tend to say "well gg this stock" if the opponent is up there too.

But lets talk about dealing with this situation in a different way than using an aerial to defend nana.
If she is above you and standing there, she is listening to your next input. Jumping and uairing, thus, will jump her even farther up where characters like mk will be happy to escort her to RIP. Furthermore, your jump uair will, even if connecting, hit the opponent toward her
Not sure what you're watching, but most ICs will typically just platform drop and air dodge her, which is pretty much your safest bet.


But from experience I can tell you a couple things GOOD about nana up there. If you get comfortable with this situation, I feel like you can make it one of the stronger positions.

Situation 1: You are standing on battlefield at the bottom and nana is on the platform above. Your opponent is marth or mk and does a fullhop fair on nana. What can you do?

My current best guess is to (1) shield early (for nana) and (2) grab or drop and bair/blizzard depending on where the opponent is.
Or you could just hit them for hitting Nana. Or go for the platform drop air dodge

Situation 2: Your opponent is trying to land on stage from high offstage but Nana is above you. Get her down, right?

Well, think about it this way, the opponent has to land on either you (ground) or Nana (platform). Either way can net a probable shieldgrab. Still want nana to come down?
Let's say you get a grab with Nana. Now what do you do? Unless you go for some crazy like N Dthrow > P footstool > P Dair > N Fair > maybe have enough frame adv for popo ice shot reset or something stupid. Or you're probably going to aerial them.

So you're risking an easier or free separation for the same reward you'd get if you simply platform dropped nana and resynced her and used the platform as an option limiter. Not a good idea in my honest opinion barring some feasible relative advantage.

Idea: Is putting Nana on a platform on purpose ever a good idea like in the above situation?
If so, how do we do that quickly and what do we do with it?
The only situation I'd advocate this for would be edge guarding


Hate being a downer on your ideas, but at least that's how I've seen it playing mostly high level MKs and the occasional top when traveling.
 

Crackle

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ZZZobac
#3
(1) The nana drop down airdodge is popular (everyone does it) but evasive (meaning best case scenario is netting no loss, but worst case she gets hit at beginning of airdodge or upon landing). I am trying to show that using nanas punishing options (like shield grab) is viable and perhaps better than the defensive reflex because it gives an opportunity for a reward.

(2) The reason I dont want to "hit them for hitting nana" as above stated is because that is a trade hugely in the losing side for the climbers. To have nana above you and then jump uair means nana will jump as she gets hit and be separated further. Even if she doesnt jump, she is separated and left for dead. Instead, again, there is the viable option of shielding whatever is to be dealt with and looking for punishment (or dropping down) next.




The things I was meaning to develop were the airdodge down (1) and the fullhop/shorthop aerials up (2). Sometimes a better move is the scouting shield (1) or baiting shorthop airdodge (2). These could help ic players adapt to the unique incoming methods of attack people use. Otherwise they find out the harder way.

If the ideas don't come across this second attempt....oy.
 

DeLux

@ChaseTheLux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,279
Location
Long Beach, CA
#4
Haha as an habitual envelope pusher, I'm not disagreeing with you or your reputation but more with the content of your ideas since I pretty objectively just analyzed risk/reward.

Based on the situations you're outlining there isn't really a relative tangible benefit in the risk / reward scale since the worst case scenario is one climber getting hit if you simply go for the reset, while the worst case scenario in exerting Nana's separated position gets Nana Hit as well as Popo hit because you're not necessarily in a desynced state, but a synced separated state, meaning I don't think the options are as viable as you're portraying them. It's almost universally better to go for the reset.

Your 1 and 2 are not really leading towards a tangible benefit, because 2 is usually going to be the best case scenario for trying to work with Nana separated but synced above you, which is why I suggested it as a trade option rather than a reset option. Notice I didn't say "instead of" when I responded, I said "or" for that particular section.
 

Crackle

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ZZZobac
#5
I can tell it would take a very long conversation for both of us to agree and fully understand each other's thoughts here. This is why I hardly bother with these boards.

As for the last post, it's hard to know what you are saying. I can't tell which situations you are referring to.
I am pretty sure that is the same thing going on when you "downered" my main post.
 
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