Platform Fighter Exploration Thread: Round 117: General RAAM

[amageish]

I seem to have really weird timing with my character nominations. First, when I nominated Illidan, the whole ActiVision/Blizzard scandal broke on the first day of discussion and now I bring up Raziel and we get the first bit of news of the franchise in over a decade with Square-Enix selling the property.

Yeah, I have noticed this happens a fair amount too, but it is probably just confirmation bias.

Anyway, we should move on about now....

Spoiler: The Noms List

50-75 noms
Hearthstone Innkeeper - x65
Opa-Opa - x55

26-50 noms
Daitoryo - x65
Xehanort - x50
Jonesy - x47
Jason Frudnick - x45
Spyro the Dragon - x38
Riku - x35
Trauma Center Content - x32
Wilfre - x30
Wadanohara* - x30
Zero Escape Rep - x30
King Harkinian - x30
Sly Cooper - x28

11-25 noms
Akira Tadokoro (Live A Live) - x25
Carl Johnson - x25
Chun-Li - x25
Meowth - x25
SMT Content - x25
Master Hand - x20
Mega Man X - x20
Morrigan - x20
Darkest Dungeon Content - x16
SSBU Re-release - x15
Ezio - x15
Gunvolt - x15

5-10 noms
Pauline - x10
Lobotomy Corporation/Library of Ruina Content - x7
Jack (Final Fantasy Origin) - x5
Frogger - x5
9-volt - x5
Nathan Drake - x5
Tracer - x3

Spoiler: Usable Noms

Commander_Alph - x20
Dan Quixote - x20
White Frost - x55
Schnee117 - x15
shinhed-echi - x20
DanganZilla5 - x20
Wario Wario Wario - x15
Gengar84 - x20

Next up is the loveable Jack Frost, from Megami Tensei, Shin Magemi Tensei, Persona, Digital Devil Saga, Demi-Kids, and half a dozen other sub-franchises I could list, as nominated by Yiptap . I'll be honest: the fact that Jack Frost never even got a spirit in Smash Ultimate is one of the most shocking things about that game to me.

Spoiler: Jack Frost Music Sampler

There's... so many sub-series... My god...

 

[Gengar84]

Noms:
x20: Xehanort

I’ve actually been a huge Persona fan since 3 but I’ve never played any of the other SMT games. All I played were 3: FES, vanilla 4 and 5, the first 4 Arena, and Strikers. I bought Tokyo Mirage Sessions but I never opened it because I had basically stopped playing my Wii U by then. I’ve still been meaning to get around to trying SMT 5 but I’ve been so backlogged with other games it’s hard to find the time.

What kinds of things can Jack Frost offer as a character? I’m only familiar with it as a summon in Persona so I don’t know all it can bring.

 

[Perkilator]

I was actually thinking Jack Frost could be an Assist Trophy, mainly after seeing this tweet:

Some new assist trophy ideas pic.twitter.com/KdD1LlsOw9

— Ryan's Art Account (@TKOWL_Art) June 18, 2019

Noms: SSBU rerelease x5

 

[Dan Quixote]

Jack Frost is a cute and iconic mascot but would he ever get in over the actual playable SMT protagonists? Sorta like a Hero/Slime situation. That said just like I wouldn't mind Slime getting in I wouldn't mind Jack at all. Got some goofy potential.

 

[Gengar84]

Jack Frost is a cute and iconic mascot but would he ever get in over the actual playable SMT protagonists? Sorta like a Hero/Slime situation. That said just like I wouldn't mind Slime getting in I wouldn't mind Jack at all. Got some goofy potential.

Jack does have the advantage of bringing a completely different vibe to Smash compared to Joker. While I’m sure the other SMT protagonists have a ton of potential for unique movesets, they are still silent, stylish type characters like he is. Jack’s goofy demeanor would really set him apart.

 

[amageish]

Jack Frost is a cute and iconic mascot but would he ever get in over the actual playable SMT protagonists? Sorta like a Hero/Slime situation. That said just like I wouldn't mind Slime getting in I wouldn't mind Jack at all. Got some goofy potential.

I would personally rather a SMT protagonist be a summoner and summon a variety of demons including Jack Frost, Pixie, etc... but there's definitely an argument for Frost by himself! He is an iconic mascot of the series - and you can always have him bring Pyro along to recreate the official freeware metroidvania.

 

[osby]

Jack Frost by himself doesn't offer much more than ice skills, in my opinion. Sure, he can easily branch to other types of magic like support or ailment but there's no reason why you can't give them to any other protagonist. Still, as amageish said, he had a pretty competent moveset in Synchronicity Prologue so even by just borrowing from it, he can be a unique fighter.

But I think what would set Jack Frost apart, in particular, is how many different forms he has. You have Raiho, Frost Ace, Demonee-Ho, Black Frost, King Frost... I think it'd be a good way to reflect his lackadaisical personality.

Jack does have the advantage of bringing a completely different vibe to Smash compared to Joker. While I’m sure the other SMT protagonists have a ton of potential for unique movesets, they are still silent, stylish-type characters like he is. Jack’s goofy demeanor would really set him apart.

While I agree that Jack Frost is more distinct than most protagonists, I don't see their vibes being particularly similar to Joker as he's really different from a typical Megaten main character. Say, Demi-fiend is a no-nonsense half-demon or Flynn is a kind, calm and mature samurai; these are pretty different from "phantom thief who can't shoot a bullet without dramatically backflipping."

 

[Gengar84]

Jack Frost by himself doesn't offer much more than ice skills, in my opinion. Sure, he can easily branch to other types of magic like support or ailment but there's no reason why you can't give them to any other protagonist. Still, as amageish said, he had a pretty competent moveset in Synchronicity Prologue so even by just borrowing from it, he can be a unique fighter.

But I think what would set Jack Frost apart, in particular, is how many different forms he has. You have Raiho, Frost Ace, Demonee-Ho, Black Frost, King Frost... I think it'd be a good way to reflect his lackadaisical personality.



While I agree that Jack Frost is more distinct than most protagonists, I don't see their vibes being particularly similar to Joker as he's really different from a typical Megaten main character. Say, Demi-fiend is a no-nonsense half-demon or Flynn is a kind, calm and mature samurai; these are pretty different from "phantom thief who can't shoot a bullet without dramatically backflipping."

That’s a fair point. I haven’t played any of the mainline SMT games so I’m pretty much going strictly by their visual design. I would love a summoner type of character in Smash. I was actually really hoping that’s the route they would have gone with for Joker’s moveset.

 

[amageish]

I do wonder if the reason we haven't seen a full-on summoner yet is just due to technical limitations, as that would require a lot of models ready to come/go at a moment's notice... but, yeah, I wouldn't worry about the a SMT protagonist overlapping too much with any of the current RPG line-up.

If it was just Jack Frost, I do wonder how they'd handle the... multi-faceted history of MegaTen. With Joker, they kept the scope really narrow, but it'd be harder to justify ignoring all sub-series and spin-offs if it's the mascot character that's playable. Plus you'd probably want to pull from those spin-offs and sub-series to get Frost a full set of alts - especially as Soul Hackers 2 is bringing back the Frost Five.

Blue Hawaii Frost is my favourite, just because it is funny to me how there is a Jack Frost variant based on one specific cocktail. It makes me think one of the character designers was at a bar, struggling to think of a 5th Jack Frost variant, looked down at their drink and had a proper Eureka moment.

 

[Yiptap]

My time has come.

As mentioned before, Jack Frost has much more potential then you'd think. He has a ton of different forms he can take. He can become the strict Demonee-ho and gain access to a machine gun and a slick, Demonica armor. He can also become Frost Ace, transforming him into the heroic Frost Ace. Hell, Jack Frost could even summon the Jack Bros to help him out!
And of course, I must make an assist trophy for this momentous occasion...

Jack Frost Assist Trophy: King Frost

The king of frosts would be a fairly simple assist trophy. He would stay in the background, casting ice spells that freeze fighters. But when he's about to leave, he turns the primary platform into ice, freezing anyone who steps on it. But if you hop onto another platform, you should be fine. Note that King Frost would be disabled on Final Destination, as that would make him too OP.

 

[Paraster]

Jack Frost was actually voted in for my "parallel universe DLC" thread, and I personally created a moveset. I wasn't the most familiar with SMT at that point (and still am not, honestly), but I like my work here, and think an ice fighter is an unserved niche (all we have currently is Ice Climbers, and they use their hammers more than ice attacks).

Moveset

• Attributes
  • Jack is a light, floaty character who favors a zoner playstyle.
• Basic attacks
  • Neutral attack: Jack does a one-two punch, then uses a multihit ice breath attack.
  • Dash attack: Jack leaps forward and pushes his belly out.
• Tilts
  • Forward tilt: Jack throws a punch.
  • Up tilt: Jack slashes upward with a dagger made of ice.
  • Down tilt: Jack shoots a short wave of ice along the floor.
• Smash attacks
  • Forward smash: Jack charges up a powerful punch.
  • Up smash: Jack swings his hand upward, causing a sweep of ice along his path.
  • Down smash: Jack causes an icy explosion on both sides of himself.
• Aerials
  • Neutral aerial: Jack spins in midair as ice surrounds him.
  • Forward aerial: Jack does a belly-flop animation and does a multihit ice breath attack.
  • Back aerial: Jack slashes behind himself with an ice dagger.
  • Up aerial: Jack does a backflip, summoning a wave of ice above himself as he does.
  • Down aerial: Jack points downward and shoots two weak ice projectiles.
• Grab & Throws
  • Grab: Jack grabs the opponent with one hand.
  • Pummel: Jack punches the opponent.
  • Forward throw: Jack pushes the opponent forward by shooting an ice spike into them.
  • Back throw: Jack twirls and throws the opponent behind himself, doing a small jump as he does so.
  • Up throw: Jack summons an ice spike from the floor that pushes the opponent upward.
  • Down throw: Jack summons a small snowstorm that pushes the opponent into the ground briefly.
• Specials
  • Neutral special: Demon Summon
    • Jack summons another demon, who performs an elemental attack. Which demon can be selected by holding B, opening a Monado Arts-like menu. There is a cooldown before you can change demons again.
      • Pyro Jack: Uses Agi, firing a small fireball that inflicts damage-over-time for a few seconds.
      • Mothman: Uses Zio, firing a weak, short range lightning bolt that briefly stuns opponents.
      • Pixie: Uses Zan, a decently powerful energy/wind blast that always knocks opponents upward a set amount.
  • Side special: Bufu
    • Jack charges up an ice projectile before throwing it forward. Damage and range increase with charge time. If at least half charged, the projectile can freeze opponents. If fully charged, the attack instead summons a storm of ice projectiles falling down in front of Jack.
  • Up special: Ice Breath
    • Jack blows a blast of ice downward, propelling himself into the air. He ascends with good speed, but that vertical speed lowers a lot while moving left or right.
  • Down special: Concentrate
    • Jack performs a focusing animation. If the animation is completed, he gains a blue aura and the next special move he uses is powered up.
• Final Smash: King Bufula
  • Jack fuses with a Black Frost and a Frost Ace to become a King Frost. He unleashes a wave of ice forward that freezes opponents solid, then hits each of them with a frost spike from below that causes each to explode into a frosty burst.

 

[amageish]

(N)ice discussion, everyone! Let's move on...

Spoiler: The Noms List

50-75 noms
Xehanort - x70
Hearthstone Innkeeper - x65
Opa-Opa - x55

26-50 noms
Daitoryo - x65
Jonesy - x47
Jason Frudnick - x45
Spyro the Dragon - x38
Riku - x35
Trauma Center Content - x32
Wilfre - x30
Wadanohara* - x30
Zero Escape Rep - x30
King Harkinian - x30
Sly Cooper - x28

11-25 noms
Akira Tadokoro (Live A Live) - x25
Carl Johnson - x25
Chun-Li - x25
Meowth - x25
SMT Content - x25
Master Hand - x20
Mega Man X - x20
Morrigan - x20
SSBU Re-release - x20
Darkest Dungeon Content - x16
Ezio - x15
Gunvolt - x15

5-10 noms
Pauline - x10
Lobotomy Corporation/Library of Ruina Content - x7
Jack (Final Fantasy Origin) - x5
Frogger - x5
9-volt - x5
Nathan Drake - x5
Tracer - x3

Spoiler: Usable Noms

Commander_Alph - x20
Dan Quixote - x30
White Frost - x55
Schnee117 - x15
shinhed-echi - x20
DanganZilla5 - x20
Wario Wario Wario - x15
Gengar84 - x20
Perkilator - x10
osby - x20
Yiptap - x15
Paraster - x15

Next up, as nominated by Perkilator , we continue the SEGA train with Kage Maru from Virtua Fighter, the stone-faced ninja.

Spoiler: Kage Maru Music Sampler

I gotta say, I didn't expect Kage's Themes to be so... relatively different from each other and not just remixes of the same song over and over. Huh.

 

[Perkilator]

Noms:
SSBU re-release x10

 

[fogbadge]

i got one question, how accessible is virtua fighter as far as fighting games go?

 

[amageish]

i got one question, how accessible is virtua fighter as far as fighting games go?

Good question!!! One I am unfortunately unqualified to answer... I played a lot of VF5 as a kid, but I can't actually judge its difficulty because... Well... I do not trust my pre-teen/early-tween self to judge the difficulty of a fighting game franchise lol.

It's an interesting legacy series though. Doesn't get as much discussion as the other big fighting staples.

 

[GolisoPower]

From what I can tell, Virtua Fighter is effectively a three-button version of Tekken before Tekken was even a thing. You have three buttons: punch, kick and guard. And the movesets are also extremely simple compared to Tekken as well.

 

[fogbadge]

From what I can tell, Virtua Fighter is effectively a three-button version of Tekken before Tekken was even a thing. You have three buttons: punch, kick and guard. And the movesets are also extremely simple compared to Tekken as well.

so would those of us who are woeful at remembering combos be better suited to it?

 

[GolisoPower]

so would those of us who are woeful at remembering combos be better suited to it?

Well, it depends on the character. Like, here's Akira's moveset from VF2:

Then here's Kage's set from the same game:

So in a sense, Kage would be a lot more like the Terry to Kazuya's Ryu: comes from the same type of fighting game, but has a more simple control scheme, making it easier for people.

 

[fogbadge]

Well, it depends on the character. Like, here's Akira's moveset from VF2:
View attachment 352338

Then here's Kage's set from the same game:
View attachment 352339View attachment 352340

So in a sense, Kage would be a lot more like the Terry to Kazuya's Ryu: comes from the same type of fighting game, but has a more simple control scheme, making it easier for people.

i getcha

 

[amageish]

Okay, time to move on...

Spoiler: The Noms List

50-75 noms
Xehanort - x70
Hearthstone Innkeeper - x65
Opa-Opa - x55

26-50 noms
Daitoryo - x65
Jonesy - x47
Jason Frudnick - x45
Spyro the Dragon - x38
Riku - x35
Trauma Center Content - x32
SSBU Re-release - x30
Wilfre - x30
Wadanohara* - x30
Zero Escape Rep - x30
King Harkinian - x30
Sly Cooper - x28

11-25 noms
Akira Tadokoro (Live A Live) - x25
Carl Johnson - x25
Chun-Li - x25
Meowth - x25
SMT Content - x25
Master Hand - x20
Mega Man X - x20
Morrigan - x20
Darkest Dungeon Content - x16
Ezio - x15
Gunvolt - x15

5-10 noms
Pauline - x10
Lobotomy Corporation/Library of Ruina Content - x7
Jack (Final Fantasy Origin) - x5
Frogger - x5
9-volt - x5
Nathan Drake - x5
Tracer - x3

Spoiler: Usable Noms

Commander_Alph - x20
Dan Quixote - x30
White Frost - x55
Schnee117 - x15
shinhed-echi - x20
DanganZilla5 - x20
Wario Wario Wario - x15
Gengar84 - x20
osby - x20
Yiptap - x15
Paraster - x15
fogbadge - x10
Golisopower - x20

Next up, as nominated by the combined powers of GolisoPower and Paraster , we're discussing the silent test subject herself, Chell from the Portal series!

Spoiler: Chell Music Sampler

Weirdly, Chell does feel like an actual possibility for Multiversus, given how she was playable in the last big Warner-Bros-led crossover game...

 

[Perkilator]

Noms:
SSBU rerelease x5

Similar to Jack Frost, the first thing that came to my mind with Chell was an Assist Trophy using the Portal Gun.

 

[GolisoPower]

Noms:
Daitoryo x10
Akira Tadokoro (Live A Live) x10

 

[fogbadge]

noms to riku

 

[Dan Quixote]

I'm sure Sakurai and his team of experienced fighting game developers, or really the devs of any professional platform fighter, know enough of their stuff to come up with a way to balance Chell around using her portals for combat. I, however, cannot for the life of me think of something that wouldn't be super OP and/or awkward to use.

 

[GolisoPower]

I imagine Chell having a Min Min-style control scheme, for better or worse: one button is a blue projectile and the other orange. They both deal the same amount of damage, but shooting them at different surfaces opens a portal that she could jump through. She could probably even take from Steve and make it so the portals don't last forever.

 

[fogbadge]

portal is a series i would have liked to try but i find most first person perspective games really jarring. so my only experience with it is lego dimensions and i dont think thats a lot to go on

 

[Baysha]

This may be a little too creative liberty-esque, but I think that an Orcane-style teleport could work for her. Though this could also conflict with other moves that use the portal gun. You could also just ignore that and have multiple portals at a time.

 

[fogbadge]

This may be a little too creative liberty-esque, but I think that an Orcane-style teleport could work for her. Though this could also conflict with other moves that use the portal gun. You could also just ignore that and have multiple portals at a time.

Orcane?

 

[Baysha]

Orcane?

A character in Rivals of Aether. His neutral special shoots a projectile that makes a puddle when it lands on the ground. His up special teleports him to the puddle and deals a lot of damage to anyone standing on it.

 

[fogbadge]

A character in Rivals of Aether. His neutral special shoots a projectile that makes a puddle when it lands on the ground. His up special teleports him to the puddle and deals a lot of damage to anyone standing on it.

interesting

 

[Paraster]

While I think Gordon Freeman or (especially) Heavy would make a better Valve rep, I kinda want Chell just to see how the devs would make her work. My bet would be that her normals involve a lot of kicks with her Long-Fall Boots and physical smacks with the Portal Gun, while she'd have one portal-based special and the rest would involve summoning various Aperture items. I think a trapper/item-summoner playstyle would be the best approach to replicating Portal's puzzle gameplay. (No idea how exactly the portal special would work, though.)

 

[amageish]

Yeah, making Chell actually be balanced while still maintaining her usual powers and versatility sounds like a serious challenge - though hopefully not an insurmountable one. I imagine there's a reason that GLaDOS, ATLAS, and P-body are more frequently used to represent the IP in crossovers, as they're much easier to integrate then someone as powerful and silent as Chell herself.

But when she is added to something herself... Well, it always feels special, at least to me.

 

[DanganZilla5]

I'm back. I just wasn't feeling the last couple characters or so.

Anyway onto Chell. I do struggle to see how she can fight with portals. The best idea I have is that she can use the portals to play mind games with her opponents. When you have two portals opened up you can travel between them in strategic situations or...not use them which can throw off people. When Chell goes through a portal it can set her up for different attacks which mostly consists of using the gun as a bludgeon weapon as Paraster suggested. The portals can used to set up attacks from the back, stomping on the opponent, etc. Basically using the portals as like a tool.

Also, the cake is a lie line has to appear somewhere on the stage. Speaking of, is there any specific section of the games which you all think would make for the best choice of a stage?

Noms: Spyro xMax

 

[Perkilator]

Also, the cake is a lie line has to appear somewhere on the stage. Speaking of, is there any specific section of the games which you all think would make for the best choice of a stage?

Maybe the arena where you fight GLaDOs at the end of the first game?

 

[amageish]

I could see Portal getting a stage that isn't based on any particular location from either Portal game, but is instead a fusion of a bunch of different parts of the game as a singular "Test Chamber" stage - that way you can have a lot of the series iconography (ex/ cubes, turrets, light bridges, gels, GLaDOS VO, Rattmann grafetti, etc) in one place...

 

[JOJONumber691]

I think Chell could be fascinating in a platform fighter. This video basically sold me instantly. https://youtu.be/1GcTQpQO37o

 

[fogbadge]

am i correct in thinking glados sings during the credits of one of the games? a shoe in for the music selection perhaps?

 

[Baysha]

I think Chell could be fascinating in a platform fighter. This video basically sold me instantly. https://youtu.be/1GcTQpQO37o

That video was strangely nostalgic. Probably a combination of the animation style with the compressed audio.

 

[JOJONumber691]

That video was strangely nostalgic. Probably a combination of the animation style with the compressed audio.

Yeah. Plus the Moveset is easily the best I’ve seen for Chell.

 

[amageish]

I think Chell could be fascinating in a platform fighter. This video basically sold me instantly. https://youtu.be/1GcTQpQO37o

That's a really fun moveset concept! I like how they also tried to recreate the vibes of a Sakurai Presents with the resources they have; it's very charming.

am i correct in thinking glados sings during the credits of one of the games? a shoe in for the music selection perhaps?

You are correct about that and almost certainly. Hell, depending on the game, there's a non-zero chance we'd get an original GLaDOS song for it. LEGO Dimensions had its end credits be GLaDOS singing a song to Chell about how she's doing FINE and DOESN'T MISS CHELL AT ALL.

It's... very much a break-up song.