PK Fire

[Exqwake]

I am really annoyed by how much ness mains use this move. Yes, it is the strategy and even the level 9 cpu uses it. The only thing I wish would happen was that they would nerf the amount of damage it does. I did dabble a little into ness and saw how much you could just spam until you hit a forward smash. Since this is the Ness thread I thought I would get some Ness main's opinions on it.

And I do ask that you don't just say play around it, I should do that but I want to talk about how maybe they could nerf the damage. My only reason being so Ness took a little more skill. (not implying that you aren't good if you play Ness because there are some pretty good Ness players.) I just was hoping to make it so Ness wasn't one of those characters you see online and say,"Pk fire spammer."

I only say this because that is all I see from online Ness players and I would like to see some of those nice combos and strings that Ness can pull off.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

Against people who shield the initial bolt, jump out, or learn to Smash DI (rock the left stick between two notches in the direction you want to escape in), PK Fire doesn't work, and risks giving the opponent the favorable position. Against a bad player it might achieve 999%, but against a player who understands the game, you would be lucky to do even 16%.

 

[Specs64z]

As already stated PK fire can be easily escaped. If you are looking for an impactful PK fire nerf, less damage won’t solve your percieved problem.

A better nerf to PK fire would be to add a few more frames of endlag. This wouldn’t make it any easier to escape the flames, but makes the disadvanatge state PK fire puts you in less potent and makes it easier to punish. Another nerf that gets to the heart of your issue would be to shorten the duration the flames last, similar to what happened to Arcthunder (preferably while boosting damage to remain consistent). This makes it harder to follow up on, reducing it’s viability and therefore it’s spammability. A third option that doesn’t really change the way the move works but reduces it’s spammability would be to change it so PK fire is on a cooldown.

All that said, PK fire really shouldn’t be nerfed. Ness just happens to have very strong b buttons this time around, and I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing. Plus, imo, it’s too early to be talking about character nerfs. The game hasn’t developed enough.

 

[EGsmash]

If your opponent DI's properly, it makes followups with grounded PK fire or grabs impossible. Fortunately we have aerial PK fire

 

[pollo20x620x6]

 

[Uffe]

I disagree. Learn how to escape PK Fire and you'll realize it's not as effective as you might think. I've faced off against light weight, medium weight, and heavy weight characters, and each of them manage to escape my PK Fire, so I can't go for a grab. I usually have to go for an aerial. If they nerfed the amount of damage you received from it, then they had better make it a lot more difficult to escape as a trade off, otherwise it's a crappy move like in previous iterations of Smash.

 

[L9999]

Learn to SDI.

 

[Specs64z]

Learn to SDI.

In smash 4, PK fire couldn’t actually be SDIed, you could only DI to drift out. I‘m not 100% sure it’s the same in Ultimate, but when I was labbing during week 1 it appeared that way.

Edit: Just double checked, and yeah, the hitstun between hits doesn’t carry over to the next hit, so DI is the way to go. I suppose you could technically SDI the hitstun, but that would require superhuman control stick flicking and timing to SDI during such a small amount of hitstun.

 

[L9999]

In smash 4, PK fire couldn’t actually be SDIed, you could only DI to drift out. I‘m not 100% sure it’s the same in Ultimate, but when I was labbing during week 1 it appeared that way.

Edit: Just double checked, and yeah, the hitstun between hits doesn’t carry over to the next hit, so DI is the way to go. I suppose you could technically SDI the hitstun, but that would require superhuman control stick flicking and timing to SDI during such a small amount of hitstun.

Press left or up over and over. That is SDI.

 

[Specs64z]

Press left or up over and over. That is SDI.

SDI requires separate directional inputs that are rapidly executed. Unless you can consistently manage several inputs in a window of a few frames (which would be superhuman), SDI against PK fire is ineffective. What you’ve described is simply DI. Influencing angle by holding a direction.

Edit: as an example, try to escape bayonetta’s witch twist in smash 4 by simply holding in a direction (DI), or rapidly flicking/wiggling the stick in that direction (SDI). The difference is night and day.

Double edit: reading back over your post, I realize I completely misread your statement. I somehow interpreted “up and left over and over” as holding the stick up and left?? Posting at 3:00am has never been my strong suit.

Anyways, that aside, you’re correct about how SDI works, but still wrong to assume that it’s effective against PK fire for reasons already explained.

 

[rhythmreview]

I've noticed playing online that its fairly easy to escape, but it can trap depending on where you hit them. If they are directly in the middle of the flame box they have a much harder time escaping than they do if the opponent is trapped more front side or back side of the flame box. PK Fire is improved in this game IMO but it isn't a cheap trick, you have to trap your opponent and use it as a punish. When I've perfectly landed it, I've been able to run directly into a FSmash and if the opponent is at 70-80% depending on weight I've been able to kill. Ultimate is the best iteration of PK Fire.

 

["Bn"]

I'm okay with this move, only nerf it really needs is the volume on Ness. It hurts my poor ears hearing him scream all match lol

 

[MG_3989]

It doesn’t need a nerf, yeah it’s a good move but it’s easy to DI out of and avoid being grabbed or smashed. If a Ness is spamming it on ground simply jump over it and throw a safe short hop aerial out as you do. Any Ness player spamming this move is basically giving you an easy win because it’s easy to read and punish. Again if you do get caught in it simply DI out of it so you don’t get punished by the bat or one of the down grab combos. Ness has a great toolkit and anyone using just pk fire isn’t playing him right

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

I have to admit, while I don't find PK Fire broken or anything, I'm somehow really bad at DI / SDI out of this move. I don't know why, but I never find me able to escape, and despite my efforts, I get grabbed or smashed.

There's probably something I do wrong, I often try to go away from Ness when I SDI.

 

[Bowser D.X]

I still have trouble escaping from this move.

It usually goes:

*Opponent throws PK Fire*

*Shields*

*Opponent runs in for grab*

Or

*Jumps over PK Fire*

*Opponent shields and counter attacks*

Or

*Dodges PK Fire*

*Opponent keeps spaming til one hits, and then proceeds to combo.*

 

[kraw23]

In smash 4, PK fire couldn’t actually be SDIed, you could only DI to drift out. I‘m not 100% sure it’s the same in Ultimate, but when I was labbing during week 1 it appeared that way.

Edit: Just double checked, and yeah, the hitstun between hits doesn’t carry over to the next hit, so DI is the way to go. I suppose you could technically SDI the hitstun, but that would require superhuman control stick flicking and timing to SDI during such a small amount of hitstun.

So to confirm - the best way to escape if you are hit by PK Fire is to hold up and away on your control stick? I have been wiggling the stick up and away all this time.

 

[Specs64z]

So to confirm - the best way to escape if you are hit by PK Fire is to hold up and away on your control stick? I have been wiggling the stick up and away all this time.

Wiggling vs holding a direction has a negligible impact on how fast you escape since SDI against PK fire is very difficult to achieve with any degree of consistency, but ultimately you are still drifting out because you’re holding a direction. The main difference I’ve noticed is that not wiggling gives you a little more control over where you’re drifting.

Also worth noting is that the optimal escape route is dependant on where you get hit. If you always go up and away, you’ll eat a lot of fairs and PKT. Somtimes going directly sideways on the ground will be a better option, and some characters with frame 1-2 jabs/invincibility can even attack/escape between the fire hits. Mixing up your escapes won’t guarantee anything, but it will make it just that little bit more difficult to follow up on you.

 

[Arrei]

Is it easier for some opponents to escape than others? When I blunder into one as Ike I don't seem to have too much trouble escaping by wiggling the control stick away, but as Ganondorf I can't seem to escape for the life of me. Neither are exactly stellar in the mobility department, but Ike does have significantly better air speed than Ganon, although both have bad air acceleration. Is that the distinguishing factor in how much PK Fire traps an opponent?

 

[MG_3989]

Is it easier for some opponents to escape than others? When I blunder into one as Ike I don't seem to have too much trouble escaping by wiggling the control stick away, but as Ganondorf I can't seem to escape for the life of me. Neither are exactly stellar in the mobility department, but Ike does have significantly better air speed than Ganon, although both have bad air acceleration. Is that the distinguishing factor in how much PK Fire traps an opponent?

Yes, it’s easier to DI out of PK Fire the lighter you are and better air movement you have I believe. Like Jiggs doesn’t get punished hard by PK Fire at all. I’m not 100% sure but I think that’s it

 

[Mr Saturn Fanboy]

PK Fire is not only very easy to escape, but it doesnt actually do as much damage as you think. If your rival is spamming it as much as you make it out to be, then you should have either escaped from it, or the move would have staled so much it wouldn't do much damage. PK Fire is a great combo starter and I think Ness' overall punishability (e.g. floatiness and abusable recovery) make up for the utility of PK Fire. I've seen much worse projectile spam from the Links, the Samuses, and even K. Rool. If you play a heavier character, My reccomendation is to stay away from the edge, as PK Fire can overwhelm you on the ledge. As stated before though, the move stales pretty easially and most of the damage you get from PK Fire is more from the combos it produces rather that the flame itself.