Pivot out of Wavedash - Is this good?

[Bradley Williams]

I've been playing around with some stuff to do with pivots and Luigi.

I really like pivots, I think they are an underutilized tool. I had been experimenting with Falcon Pivots (My secondary), as his dash is so long it allows for really good options. However when I tried using Pivots with Luigi, his dash just isn't really that great.

So Then I started playing around. Now what I am talking about is not turning around out of a wavedash (although I think that is super useful) but actually input a dash and then pivoting after wavedashing.

So the inputs would be Wavedash > Flick control stick forward to Dash > Flick control stick back to Pivot

What this achieves is completely stopping Luigi's Wavedash momentum.

In Theory it allows you to approach really quickly and then immediately stop and perform any move.
What I originally tried using it for was to wavedash in pivot Upsmash, to get the back hit box and the invulnerability.
But i then figured it'd be good for not committing to hard to f-tilts and d-smashes. I always find I'll Wavedash in and f-tilt only to slide into my opponents sheild, and then get grabbed.
This would allow more micro spacing and provide safer options for Luigi.

Thoughts???

 

[Verda Stelo]

Pivot technology is the mark of the "new school" Luigi metagame. I've been implementing pivoting into my play and I know the Florida Luigis, BluEG and Blea, have too. Blea even taught Eddy how to pivot at Apex.

Despite being his great strength, the wavedash can also be Luigi's great weakness. It's highly committal as an approach option versus an opponent that's aware of its capabilities and limitations. Pivoting provides an entirely new set of capabilities with far fewer limitations in optimal use. The distance of a full wavedash can easily be played around, but the ability to come to a complete stop and do literally anything instantly creates a whole new world of counterplay in every matchup.
Luigi can easily suffer from imprecise spacing due to drift, especially when you need to quickly and precisely transition from ground to air to extend a punish. You can quickly find these precise spacings and choose to face either direction in the same maneuver, introducing a potent mixup game of aggressive versus defensive play (bair wall vs. fair strike for example).

I've only begun to really dive into this tech, I can't wait to see what else Luigi can do.

 

[Yann J.Ridin]

I was thinking about pivot Dsmash to punish people who often jab after the aerials or simply in general. But i dont use it for the moment,

BTW If I wanna Dashdance from a wave dash, I always do a quick dash in the same way of the wavedash first to cancel the standing "moonwalk"dash backward.

 

[JTheElfMan]

I don't understand the inputs for this. Like it seems way more subtle than flick forward/flick back because that just describes a dashdance. I got it a couple times out of thousands of tries and I have no idea what the difference was those couple of times.

 

[Yann J.Ridin]

When you are in dashdance or in a simple dash (no "run" of course) just input a dash in the opposite direction (like classic Dashdance) for 1 FRAME. The input "right or left" doen't have to be longer than 1 frame.
You can try to do the stick input with an angle just under 45°. So the distance for your stick to return in neutral will be smaller.
If you do it right, Luigi will just stand straight out of dashdancing

 

[JoeyPlunk]

I can't for the life of me pivot an f-tilt. They'd be so good, but I always just mess up and of course do a dash attack...

But I've been trying out pivot downsmash and upsmash, and they're a lot easier to implement. WD forward > dash backwards > forward pivot d-smash would allow you to space that d-smash wherever you want within the wavedash, without drifting into them afterwards. Which is awesome.

@ J JTheElfMan I think it's a lot easier to perform pivots when you do a grab or smash with them. Like to pivot a smash attack:
Dash in one direction, then as you input the other direction on your control stick (like a dash dance), input a smash on the C stick at the exact same time (I think it has to be on the same frame, but not sure so don't quote me on that). If you do it right you'll pivot out of your dash into a smash.

 

[BluEG]

I've got a lot to say about this one....in short: Yes. I believe it's the future of our character. I don't have a lot of time but I will come back to this thread with some thoughts I have. Huge proponent for it.

 

[Bradley Williams]

I also find it a struggle to do f-tilts out of pivots.

I know it's possible. I just think I need to keep practicing
My biggest problem is I always let go of the control stick to let it return to neutral for the pivot. If i can learn to pivot without letting go of the stick it'll be a lot easier.

 

[tauKhan]

@ JoeyPlunk Pivot actions are done on frame 2 of smash turn, the idea is to input something else to override the dash that would normally happen on frame 2 of the turn. So not at the same time, but on the consequent frame instead. Here's Kadano's diagram that shows the turn area. To empty pivot you got to have the stick for precisely 1 frame in the dark blue area. My preferred method is to aim close to the corner notch and roll down to crouch area. This allows for quick pivot dtilts as well.

 

[Bradley Williams]

thanks dude. that helps so much. I didn't quite understand pivots. I was always empty pivoting and then input a move XD

 

[JoeyPlunk]

@ T tauKhan Thanks for clarifying dude, and that diagram is great. Explains why I can only do empty pivots at 1/2 speed, but I'll try out your method.

Also I read up on your ZPS discovery, sweet stuff!

 

[BluEG]

For reference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYMpSZdkqCc&feature=youtu.be

 

[JTheElfMan]

Okay so I understand this a bit better now. It'll be a while before I'm anywhere near consistent with this though. At least I have something to practice.

 

[Bradley Williams]

Something I've been playing around with that could help people practice the ideas behind pivot tech while still learning. If you wavedash in place with luigi it still stops your momentum. So wavedash in, wavedash in place, f-tilit is an example. Pivoting is going to be prefered as you will get 10 frames of delay (or something like that) from the wavedash, and only 2 from the pivot

 

[BluEG]

Luigi is a hard to control character. He slides around, moving primarily through wavedashes, so it's imperative to learn how to stop your momentum whilst sliding and return to a neutral stance. There are several ways to do this:

• Wavedash in place
• Dash in either direction and immediately shield (then you are free to WD OOS or jump)
• Pivot

Wavedash in place has a bit of lag
Shielding puts you in shield..which is simply bad in many occasions
And Pivoting......
Well pivoting is the holy grail of cancelling Luigi's momentum, there is almost no con to it beyond being difficult to execute. Through it, Luigi can theoretically achieve an absurd amount of control in regards to placement of attacks and spacing.

Pivoting is a near-zero frame method of stopping a wavedash.


What is that good for? Well imagine wavedashing aggressively towards an opponent and pivoting just outside of their range and placing a forward tilt. No more sliding into them, no more getting shield grabbed. Luigi's waveland is also extremely unwieldy, and using pivots we can stop our wavelands more precisely.

"But WAIT!" you say, "Can't you just input a shallower angle wavedash/waveland to achieve the same effect?"
Yes. You can.
But pivoting achieves the same result without sacrificing speed. With pivoting we can input a perfect wavedash/waveland and stop it ANYWHERE during its trajectory and face EITHER direction while doing so.

Pivoting is amazing. Its really fcking hard to do consistently so I recommend learning methods 1 and 2 to stop your momentum before moving to it. It's just a better way to do something we should be doing already.

Cheers.

 

[BluEG]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLd0jw2IIAY#t=01m54s

Example of a new tech I'm working on with Luigi missile and some pivoting in action

 

[Griffard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLd0jw2IIAY#t=01m54s

Example of a new tech I'm working on with Luigi missile and some pivoting in action

Very cool stuff, love the missile cancels not totally new though, I was busting these out to chase opponents at Paragon! I probably went a little too HAM with ledge cancels that tourney, but really wanted to get the spacing down.

Thanks for the info on the empty pivot though dude, it's a big help and I look forward to starting to implement this in games.

 

[BluEG]

Very cool stuff, love the missile cancels not totally new though, I was busting these out to chase opponents at Paragon! I probably went a little too HAM with ledge cancels that tourney, but really wanted to get the spacing down.

Thanks for the info on the empty pivot though dude, it's a big help and I look forward to starting to implement this in games.

haha thanks. I figured out the timing at Aped and its super fun.

I suicided legit 5 times in that set meh -.- was a little tipsy. But I mostly wanted to get some footage of pivoting to show you guys...as far as I know I haven't seen any luigis use it like...ever. So yeah. I want to push this to become part of our metagame.

I do it a whole ton in that set. I'm still new to it so I might be using it at the wrong times.

 

[Verda Stelo]

I've definitely been spamming it a bit in friendlies and at locals. It's how you discover new ways to apply a tech and how it can be punished in certain situations. Far away knockdown -> wd pivot is an amazing setup to force get up from people and be able to react to every option. Pivot utilt/usmash and bair are pretty nice options both defensively and aggressively.