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Pivot Grab vs. JC Grab
- Thread starter caldonis
- Start date
Yurya
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2012
- Messages
- 187
Assuming you know nothing (you probably do know stuff I'm just making sure), there are three different types of grabs: Standing (jump-cancelled), Dashing, and Pivot.
Which grab you do depends on what how your character is moving at that moment.
If your character is dashing and you press grab you Dash grab.
If you are turning around during a dash you will Pivot grab.
And any other time you grab you will do a standing grab, this includes when you cancel a previous state such as dashing with a jump and then cancel the jump with a standing grab (JC grab).
While the differences vary character to character, typically Dash-grabs and Pivot-grabs have more endlag in exchange for more range. In a case where you might be cautious about committing too much to a Dash-grab a JC grab might serve a better purpose. Pivots are useful for surprising opponents who either let you run past them or are trying to chase you down.
In the case of Meta Knight, he can see a good use of all his grabs with as much time that he spends Dash-Dancing. His Dash grab does extend him forward a bit which allows him to reach further sooner but it also leaves him more vulnerable on whiff.
Which grab you do depends on what how your character is moving at that moment.
If your character is dashing and you press grab you Dash grab.
If you are turning around during a dash you will Pivot grab.
And any other time you grab you will do a standing grab, this includes when you cancel a previous state such as dashing with a jump and then cancel the jump with a standing grab (JC grab).
While the differences vary character to character, typically Dash-grabs and Pivot-grabs have more endlag in exchange for more range. In a case where you might be cautious about committing too much to a Dash-grab a JC grab might serve a better purpose. Pivots are useful for surprising opponents who either let you run past them or are trying to chase you down.
In the case of Meta Knight, he can see a good use of all his grabs with as much time that he spends Dash-Dancing. His Dash grab does extend him forward a bit which allows him to reach further sooner but it also leaves him more vulnerable on whiff.
An interesting thing you can do with MK's pivot grab is you can run towards someone and pivot grab right in front of them. Basically you'll grab them from behind you and now you're facing the other way. It can be helpful if you want to change the direction you back/forward throw them or if you want to continue a down-throw chain-grab situation in the opposite direction.
JeezImSoBored
Smash Apprentice
don't forget about boost grabbing with MK it's pretty good.
If you don't know what boost grab is, you dash attack but grab before the attack comes out to get a boost from that dash attack for your grab
If you don't know what boost grab is, you dash attack but grab before the attack comes out to get a boost from that dash attack for your grab
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
Boost grab should actually be chosen over dash grab for range reasons.
JC grab has more range though and is the better choice most of the time (you could look it up here) and JC should also be faster (of course it gets slower the later you cancel the jump).
The pivot grab reverse hasn't really much range but is reliable if you have a big frame advantage still.
I'd generally state (of course there are exceptions) for MK's grabs:
JC > Boost > Dash
I was also thinking about Boost Pivot grabs but if your Boost grab is good your Boost grab is good your pivot boost grab is normally bad .The reason is basically that the momentum is transfered and for a boost grab it is good to have much momentum so you reach up more but if you pivot grab you actually move away so more momentum is bad here. That makes characters with momentumstopping dash attacks have good boost pivot grabs. I'm writing too much again, so the idea is: MK's dash attack accelerates him in the first frame(s), so his boost grab is good and his pivot boost grab worse than his pivot grab. Note that if your dash attack momentum (almost) equals your dash speed, your Dash grab is better than your Boost grab and your Pivot grab is better than your Pivot Boost grab because you lose at least one frame with inputting dash attack.
JC grab has more range though and is the better choice most of the time (you could look it up here) and JC should also be faster (of course it gets slower the later you cancel the jump).
The pivot grab reverse hasn't really much range but is reliable if you have a big frame advantage still.
I'd generally state (of course there are exceptions) for MK's grabs:
JC > Boost > Dash
I was also thinking about Boost Pivot grabs but if your Boost grab is good your Boost grab is good your pivot boost grab is normally bad .The reason is basically that the momentum is transfered and for a boost grab it is good to have much momentum so you reach up more but if you pivot grab you actually move away so more momentum is bad here. That makes characters with momentumstopping dash attacks have good boost pivot grabs. I'm writing too much again, so the idea is: MK's dash attack accelerates him in the first frame(s), so his boost grab is good and his pivot boost grab worse than his pivot grab. Note that if your dash attack momentum (almost) equals your dash speed, your Dash grab is better than your Boost grab and your Pivot grab is better than your Pivot Boost grab because you lose at least one frame with inputting dash attack.
GeZ
Smash Lord
I think the turning around, grabbing from behind is a thing a lot of characters have. I know at least that Mario can do it, and a few others.
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
Grabs are designed quite differently. Most consist of a little box around the arm of the grabber. Since it is sometimes hard to grab with that, the boxes are always circles (should we speak of hitcircles?) and they shouldn't reach up too high or low, Nintendo decided to put sometimes more than one grab box next to each other. Normally these are two, sometimes one or even three (e.g. Marths dash grab). They aren't directly next to each other but there is normally a relatively big amount of space between those boxes. The most used "pattern" of grab boxes is one grabbox at the arm/hand and one at the center of the hurtbox/body. This second grabbox, while used less when reaching out, can often lead to grabs of opponents even slightly behind you (because the box isn't 0 but 2-dimensional) causing that effect. I don't know every grabbox but I think it is quite common, just some characters (those who have their centerbody grabbox a bit moved to their back) can make more use of the resulting effect you are talking about.
Yeah quite a few characters can grab from behind. MK's is really good though because of his ground speed and heavy use of grabs in the neutral game.
Like, Link can grab from behind but I wouldn't recommend anyone trying this technique with him because he runs so slowly and would get punished super hard if he missed.
Like, Link can grab from behind but I wouldn't recommend anyone trying this technique with him because he runs so slowly and would get punished super hard if he missed.
JeezImSoBored
Smash Apprentice
I just realized that MK actually doesn't have a boost grab (or that it basically made no difference comparing to his dash grab). I've been "boost grabbing" but it turned out that his dash grab is just freakn huge.
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
If the dash attack momentum equals the dash momentum...