Q&A Pikachu Q&A Thread (Ask a Quick Question, Get a Quick Answer)

[The_Devious]

How do you quick attack sideways for two directions? I've done it before but I don't know the input or timing required.

 

[Eonn]

How do you quick attack sideways for two directions? I've done it before but I don't know the input or timing required.

As in the same direction? If you're on the ground you can input forward followed by down-forward and you'll just end up going forward twice.

For my question, how do you use QA properly? I always hear about how versatile it is but anytime I use it as an approach I get punished and I can't seem to land with it either since they just run after me in free fall and punish my landing anyway. Even slower character like Ike seem to have no problems punishing my landings.

 

[Flawed]

Has Quick attack always cancelled on dreamlands right side?

 

[M15t3R E]

As in the same direction? If you're on the ground you can input forward followed by down-forward and you'll just end up going forward twice.

For my question, how do you use QA properly? I always hear about how versatile it is but anytime I use it as an approach I get punished and I can't seem to land with it either since they just run after me in free fall and punish my landing anyway. Even slower character like Ike seem to have no problems punishing my landings.

QA in Smash 4 may not cancel on every surface as it does in Brawl but it has much lower landing lag. You can act out of it very quickly. If you land with QA a medium distance from your opponent they shouldn't be able to catch you. Do you successfully use QA into the opponent and then back to your original location? It's good for a mix-up and can lead to aerial strings. If that's not your experience then I don't know what to tell ya.

 

[Pikabunz]

Has Quick attack always cancelled on dreamlands right side?

It cancels when you QA towards the center. Works on both sides.

 

[Rhydstone]

Seeing esam and other pika mains putting in work really impresses me. I'm trying to pick up pikachu, but i don't really know the best tips and such. Can someone give me setups, tips, strategies, MU's etc.?

 

[isaiah :)]

if you know how to space with your character then you know how to use QA correctly, just like any other move, you have to space yourself when you land with QA as well, that's about as proper as i can think for it.

 

[Ritronaut]

I mean no offense, but all the information you want is here in the Pikachu boards,you should probably go look for it instead of asking for it handed to you on a silver platter.

 

[mercy]

Anyone else find it ironic that jab is safer on shield than actually hitting someone?

 

[isaiah :)]

I mean no offense, but all the information you want is here in the Pikachu boards,you should probably go look for it instead of asking for it handed to you on a silver platter.

no offense but the pikachu boards are out of date most of the time and no one put's effort in to updating the front page thread's :/

 

[Soul.]

No one puts an effort into updating the threads because the boards are barely active, with Skype groups existing and all.
I wish I could help more.

 

[Pikabunz]

What threads need updating?

 

[Soul.]

It depends, honestly. imo making our current matchup thread (the one that's stickied) a directory that leads to the separate MU threads/able to discuss MUs there if you don't feel like posting in the separate ones would be better, because our current one is, well, somewhat messy. I could help remaking the OP if nobody else can.

Well, if that sounds like an update that is.

 

[Eonn]

Advice for landing with Pikachu?

 

[Underhill]

Advice for landing with Pikachu?

You got a couple of options: Quick attack cancel to the ground with the first and second wrap, but make sure that you space right so you'll have no landing lag and act quickly, but don't be too predictable with the angle, though. Go to the ledge only if you feel pressure by opponent. Only use d-airs or fa-airs to get your opponent away from you depending on the position. Also, use them for spacing to avoid punish if they shield your air attacks. Fast Fall comes into play, but thats about it.
If you're playing on BattleField or Dreamland, use QA to cancel on platforms to land safely.

Well, I hope this helps.

 

[Eonn]

You got a couple of options: Quick attack cancel to the ground with the first and second wrap, but make sure that you space right so you'll have no landing lag and act quickly, but don't be too predictable with the angle, though. Go to the ledge only if you feel pressure by opponent. Only use d-airs or fa-airs to get your opponent away from you depending on the position. Also, use them for spacing to avoid punish if they shield your air attacks. Fast Fall comes into play, but thats about it.
If you're playing on BattleField or Dreamland, use QA to cancel on platforms to land safely.

Well, I hope this helps.

Thanks! It's mainly on flat stages I have trouble landing. Regarding QA, how do I angle it to ensure no landing lag? I usually use it too far above the ground and get punished while in free fall; should I be trying to angle horizontally across the stage instead (like a QAC)?

 

[Underhill]

Thanks! It's mainly on flat stages I have trouble landing. Regarding QA, how do I angle it to ensure no landing lag? I usually use it too far above the ground and get punished while in free fall; should I be trying to angle horizontally across the stage instead (like a QAC)?

Yeah, I usually do when I'm about to hit the ground is to use first wrap to angle horizontally then angle the second wrap to the ground or down-right or left to the ground to get some room. Sometimes as long if its not the Mario bros, I could probadly use the QA to bait shields for mindgames. Sometimes, you can uses the first wrap to angle down-right or left to the ground, but I recommend using both the wraps to land safely if you're facing a fast character. I could include the Skull bash if you're being launched upwards, but I'm not sure about that option; As soon as you use skull bash at a decent charge for distance, use the QA to cancel to the ground with both wraps if you must, but be careful which character you're facing and the skull bash.

Well, thats about it, man. You got options so mix them up and land safe to avoid punish and being read; Don't forget to watch your opponent too in case. If you have any more questions, then I will answer them as much as I can.

 

[Gibbs]

No one puts an effort into updating the threads because the boards are barely active, with Skype groups existing and all.
I wish I could help more.

So is the skype group where all the people labbing Pika are? Is there anyone doing systematic pika research? I don't really expect 20GX style optimization this early in the meta, but I feel like we're really lagging behind other characters in terms of development. I mean how is it that the u-tilt > thunder kill confirm Deadre found wasn't discovered till more than half a year after release?

 

[Soul.]

So is the skype group where all the people labbing Pika are? Is there anyone doing systematic pika research? I don't really expect 20GX style optimization this early in the meta, but I feel like we're really lagging behind other characters in terms of development. I mean how is it that the u-tilt > thunder kill confirm Deadre found wasn't discovered till more than half a year after release?

I mean, during my time with the Skype group there were people who were finding stuff (or rather, talk about that stuff) when we all had only the 3DS version. As far as systematic research is concerned, I don't think anyone is doing that. I haven't heard of it ever since I left the group.
We wouldn't be lagging behind if it wasn't for Skype groups taking over the activity of the boards. Unfortunately Skype is more accessible than Smashboards; that's really sad.

 

[Gibbs]

Is there any interest in more coordinated pika development, like why hasn't anyone grinded out all the percent windows for % windows that force tech setups with dtilt/ftilt/soft hit nair with different DI.

 

[Hoenn]

I have those percents grinded, its on my phone though RIP

Also you wouldn't need to test different DI, its about knockback

ALSO the knockdown setups are all weight dependent, so fall speed, size, ect do not matter

Maybe I will share it if I stop being lazy, honestly this knowledge hasn't helped me too much, but I hope this helps

Dair to not hard knockdown 0-41 Mario
0-40 luigi
0-39 peach
0-50 bowser
0-43 Yoshi
0-36 Rosalina
0-42 bowser JR
0-44 Wario
0-48 donkey kong
0-40 diddy kong
0-35 GaW
0-37 Mac
0-43 Link
0-38 Zelda
0-38 Sheik
0-46 Ganon
0-40 Toon link
0-44 Samus
0-37 ZSS
0-41 Pit
0-40 Palutena
0-39 Marth
0-45 Ike
0-41 Robin
0-40 Duck Hunt
0-36 Kirby
0-47 Dedede
0-37 MK
0-36 Fox
0-37 Falco
0-36 Pika
0-46 Charizard
0-42 Lucario
0-33 Puff
0-40 Greninja
0-44 ROB
0-40 Ness
0-43 Falcon
0-41 Villager
0-36 Olimar
0-41 Wii fit Trainer
0-43 shulk
0-41 Dr. Mario
0-41 Dark Pit
0-39 Lucina
0-41 PAC-man
0-43 Mega man
0-41 Sonic
0-34 Mewtwo

Nair to not hard knockdown

Now I decided that I did not want to test this on every character since my Dair test proved that it was 100% weight dependent, so I took the heaviest character and the lightest character from each weight class to save time...And the percent only varied by like 10% or so, so I'm glad I took the shortcut, TLDR Nair with start hard knockdown after 30% or 40%
Mario - 32
Luigi - 31
Peach - 30
Got bored since the percents do not vary ROFL
Condensed version:

Super Heavy

Bowser- 38
Ganon -34

Heavy

Samus-34
Lucario-32

Middle
Mario-32
Peach-30

Light
Zelda-29
GaW-27

Balloon
Mewtwo-26
Puff-25

For more info and my source for weight please check out http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Weight


Still kinda need to grind Dtilt and Ftilt percents, but this information that I already have barely helped me at all, so I am probably just gonna shortcut it again LOL @ Gibbs

 

[Pikabunz]

How much does rage change these numbers?

 

[Soul.]

That list is sound.
Unless I'm wrong (please do correct me if I am), knockdown setups are... jab locks?

 

[Gibbs]

@ Hoenn Isn't hitstun also super important? I use weak hit of nair to force techs a lot and on a grounded opponent there is a percent window where it will force the knockdown and will have enough hitstun not to allow a DJ out.

 

[Hoenn]

@ Hoenn Isn't hitstun also super important? I use weak hit of nair to force techs a lot and on a grounded opponent there is a percent window where it will force the knockdown and will have enough hitstun not to allow a DJ out.

Hitstun only affects things at really high percents and on moves like Dtilt

Hitstun basically is only a thing that matters if they have time to jump out or air dodge out even.
At the practical percents for the aerials, I don't think I ever have problems with my opponent jumping out
With Fthrow, Dtilt, and, Ftilt though... Yeah.... hitstun matters with these moves

@ Pikabunz I don't go for jab lock setups unless I am in percent for them, so I would not know
I also want to know more about the mathmatical formula behind rage and how it affects things like this
If you get any info please hmu
Also I can help you lab it if you would like
@ Soul. Yes

I was grinding the Dair percents for the Late hit Dair -> Grab percents, so that is something else this data is actually useful for

 

[Cecil St.Cyr]

Hey guys, i know this question has probably been asked before, but ivd never came across the answer. Is it impossible to get out a second quick attack input if the first one happens to collide (or glide) across the stage? I've been trying to improve my quick attack game, starting with the double horizontal quick attack, and i was wondering if me accidentally angling it slightly downward first instead of completely horizontal is the reason for my inconsistency to get off the second input

 

[M15t3R E]

Hey guys, i know this question has probably been asked before, but ivd never came across the answer. Is it impossible to get out a second quick attack input if the first one happens to collide (or glide) across the stage? I've been trying to improve my quick attack game, starting with the double horizontal quick attack, and i was wondering if me accidentally angling it slightly downward first instead of completely horizontal is the reason for my inconsistency to get off the second input

To double QA across the ground in the same direction you need to make the first direction of QA straight horizontal and the second direction the same except with a slight down angle.

 

[Cecil St.Cyr]

To double QA across the ground in the same direction you need to make the first direction of QA straight horizontal and the second direction the same except with a slight down angle.

Alright, thank you

 

[M15t3R E]

To double QA across the ground you need to make the first direction of QA straight horizontal and the second direction the same but with a slight down angle.

Alright, thank you

You're welcome. Your question is quite common but that's okay. Next, try QA'ing in different directions. When you feel pretty confident you can begin QA'ing through the opponent occasionally which can lead to aerial follow-ups.

 

[Cecil St.Cyr]

You're welcome. Your question is quite common but that's okay. Next, try QA'ing in different directions. When you feel pretty confident you can begin QA'ing through the opponent occasionally which can lead to aerial follow-ups.

Yea ill just have to keep up the practice.

Another question i have to ask is downthrow to thunder viable near the ledge? Ive been experimenting in training mode and it seems at around 100-150ish percent (could start as early as 90 percent for characters as jigglypuff, or 140-200 as late as Dedede), but i could downthrow, follow up with a fullhop then thunder and hit with the cloud resulting in a spike. In training mode it says it registers as a true combo, but im not sure as it could possibly be airdodgable. On stages without walls charcters like mario can't make it back up. Charcters like donkey kong and little mac have no hope of ever coming back up. Charcters with great vertical recovery range however need to be edge gaurded in order to secure the kill do to how high up the spike is. Like on the sonic cpu i would drop down and miss the ledge and catch him with a bair, nair, even dair sometimes although not the best choice, as well as fair if i did a turnaround thunder, all in order to stage spike (which i was still able to recover back from). On stages with walls i had to edge gaurd even harder due to stage spiking not being an option, in some cases not even worth it like villager ( albeit possible if you manage to pop all his balloons with a fair without hitting him against the wall) and lucario (at one point he managed to make it back on a slanted stage even after being stage spiked from the bottom of the stage from a bair. Only happened once but the possibility is still there). Didn't test on all the characters so there could be more where it's useless to try this. On charcters with a damaging teleport like shiek or zelda it is possible if you drop down and catch them before they up special, but i found it dangerous and not worth it cause a lot of times i got stage spiked myself or knocked away in a dangerous position. Some concerns are the mistake of accidentally using your second jump due to running offstage instead or jumping, and using back air so low that you'd have trouble getting back yourself, but those issues could be easily resolved. A fresh thunder could also be a factor here, maybe eliminating the need for further edgegaurd due to the increased knockback, as well as the addition of rage. Staleness plays a part too but not as much do to the unlikely event you connected multiple thunders in the last 10 moves. Another thing is i managed to b-reverse the thunder and it still counted as a combo, so maybe that could be useful for characters who are doomed without hope of recovery just to make it back on stage faster, or characters with slow predictable recoveries (like charizard with his double jumps, kirby, jigglypuff etc) so instead of dropping so low to finish the job you could get back on the stage and determine your plan for edge gaurding, not to mention get rid of the risk of a failed recovery, which can still be done but why risk it unless you just want to make the kill look that much awesome lol. So i was wondering if this could be used viably and is it truely a combo, or maybe im just wasting my time?

Tldr, is downthrow to thunder spike a viable option near the edge at around 100-150ish percent. Followed by further edge gaurd if needed?

 

[M15t3R E]

Yea ill just have to keep up the practice.

Another question i have to ask is downthrow to thunder viable near the ledge? Ive been experimenting in training mode and it seems at around 100-150ish percent (could start as early as 90 percent for characters as jigglypuff, or 140-200 as late as Dedede), but i could downthrow, follow up with a fullhop then thunder and hit with the cloud resulting in a spike. In training mode it says it registers as a true combo, but im not sure as it could possibly be airdodgable. On stages without walls charcters like mario can't make it back up. Charcters like donkey kong and little mac have no hope of ever coming back up. Charcters with great vertical recovery range however need to be edge gaurded in order to secure the kill do to how high up the spike is. Like on the sonic cpu i would drop down and miss the ledge and catch him with a bair, nair, even dair sometimes although not the best choice, as well as fair if i did a turnaround thunder, all in order to stage spike (which i was still able to recover back from). On stages with walls i had to edge gaurd even harder due to stage spiking not being an option, in some cases not even worth it like villager ( albeit possible if you manage to pop all his balloons with a fair without hitting him against the wall) and lucario (at one point he managed to make it back on a slanted stage even after being stage spiked from the bottom of the stage from a bair. Only happened once but the possibility is still there). Didn't test on all the characters so there could be more where it's useless to try this. On charcters with a damaging teleport like shiek or zelda it is possible if you drop down and catch them before they up special, but i found it dangerous and not worth it cause a lot of times i got stage spiked myself or knocked away in a dangerous position. Some concerns are the mistake of accidentally using your second jump due to running offstage instead or jumping, and using back air so low that you'd have trouble getting back yourself, but those issues could be easily resolved. A fresh thunder could also be a factor here, maybe eliminating the need for further edgegaurd due to the increased knockback, as well as the addition of rage. Staleness plays a part too but not as much do to the unlikely event you connected multiple thunders in the last 10 moves. Another thing is i managed to b-reverse the thunder and it still counted as a combo, so maybe that could be useful for characters who are doomed without hope of recovery just to make it back on stage faster, or characters with slow predictable recoveries (like charizard with his double jumps, kirby, jigglypuff etc) so instead of dropping so low to finish the job you could get back on the stage and determine your plan for edge gaurding, not to mention get rid of the risk of a failed recovery, which can still be done but why risk it unless you just want to make the kill look that much awesome lol. So i was wondering if this could be used viably and is it truely a combo, or maybe im just wasting my time?

Tldr, is downthrow to thunder spike a viable option near the edge at around 100-150ish percent. Followed by further edge gaurd if needed?

Wow you have a lot on your mind. To answer the gist of it all, it can work however d-throw to thunder is not usually used in favor of u-throw to thunder because the mechanics of d-throw tend to throw the opponent to the left or right more often. Even u-throw isn't perfect for this, though, since opponents will have the ability to DI and quite possibly avoid the thunder follow-up even at high percents. It has been noted that sometimes even strings the game considers a combo in training mode can be broken out of or avoided through DI by a human opponent. As for the b-reversed thunder follow-up, we are currently experimenting with that now to see if we can find a way to make the thunder follow-up from u-throw guaranteed.

 

[Cecil St.Cyr]

Wow you have a lot on your mind. To answer the gist of it all, it can work however d-throw to thunder is not usually used in favor of u-throw to thunder because the mechanics of d-throw tend to throw the opponent to the left or right more often. Even u-throw isn't perfect for this, though, since opponents will have the ability to DI and quite possibly avoid the thunder follow-up even at high percents. It has been noted that sometimes even strings the game considers a combo in training mode can be broken out of or avoided through DI by a human opponent. As for the b-reversed thunder follow-up, we are currently experimenting with that now to see if we can find a way to make the thunder follow-up from u-throw guaranteed.

I see. While i am a little bothered by the inconsistency of up throw to thunder, i thought this could possibly be a mixup. For this i used down throw precisely because i want my oponent to be launched to the left or right. This way when i chase them offstage after a downthrow near the edge, i keep my momentum so i miss the shockwave hitbox that would usually occur if thunder were to hit pikachu. In all im just wondering if this is a viable option in setting up a thunder spike, to which extra edge gaurding is need against characters with great vertical recovery. I think this could be good mixup, like in a match you constantly forward or back throw and opponent off the edge, they'd most likely DI towards the stage. Then out of nowhere a down throw comes out and they DI to where the thunder spike would connect. Of course if they DI away it wouldn't work, that is unless you run off stage instead of jumping in order to save time, but that just puts you at a disadvantage at getting back on stage, let alone trying to edge gaurd. I wish i could make a video demonstrating what i mean.

That aside, on some characters at like around 100-140ish percent or so(character dependent but yea; starts around 130ish for mario in this example), ive had down throw followed by a single fox trot into thunder on stage register as a true 3 hit combo. There's also up tilt into a single fox trot followed by thunder which seems to also be a 3 hit combo works around the same percentage. Of course there are multiple factors such as di that could affect their usefulness or effectiveness, but these are just possible options. Ive also used FF fair to guarantee a grab or up tilt to start these combos, especially for up tilt because of how hard it would be to just throw out a well spaced up tilt out of nowhere. Another fun thing i noticed is that you can kind of control or influence where your oponent ends up after the thunder just by shortening or lengthening your fox trot, (dash, just as long as the animation is stopped fast enough) anyways i wish i could demonstrate these, and these numbers aren't concrete due to so many factors not present

 

[Cecil St.Cyr]

Wow i type too much. Can't get the point across sooner it seems xD

 

[Eonn]

How should I be spacing fair so I don't get shield grabbed on approach? The move seems recommended and I see ESAM use it all the time but almost every time I throw it out I get grabbed.

On a different note, how should I be QAing smartly? I'm constantly punished for trying to get in with it.

 

[Emuchu]

How should I be spacing fair so I don't get shield grabbed on approach? The move seems recommended and I see ESAM use it all the time but almost every time I throw it out I get grabbed.

On a different note, how should I be QAing smartly? I'm constantly punished for trying to get in with it.

Fair is a Fair-ly difficult move to space properly! You have to get used to the idea that Pika's Fair is a disjointed move--the part that hits you extends ahead of his body by a good amount, so if you space it so that only the very tip of the move hits your opponent, then many characters won't be able to shield grab your landing frames, whereupon you can punish their grab recovery with your own throw, or with Ftilt / Dtilt / Usmash / Fsmash. Notice the qualifications! Some characters, such as those with tether grabs (and Olimar) might still be able to reach you, and depending on your spacing, someone like Shiek might still be able to shield-drop > dash-grab you. It's important to know the precise range of the move, so get into practice against Mario or someone and try doing neutral Short Hop Fair FF at a range where it will definitely whiff. Now, nudge Pika over a hair and try it again and again until you hit with it. Once you understand your maximum range, you can move on to the hard part: trying to maintain that spacing while jumping forward, and then the *really* hard part: trying to nail that spacing while jumping forward at someone who's running around.

The second part of this idea is that you have to make your opponent guess at whether you're really planning to land with Fair FF or not. The reason that ESAM can usually get away with Fair FF is that his opponent has to make additional guesses over whether ESAM is really landing with Fair FF, or if he's doing empty-jump FF Grab, retreating Fair / Dair AC, crossup Fair / Dair AC, or SH Quick Attack (which is a whole ball of wax on its own). This means that, for his opponent, punishing Fair FF is not an automatic reaction, but a conscious decision that has to be made, meaning, in practice, that they're either guessing over what ESAM's Pika might be up to and pressing buttons preemptively, leaving them open to punishment if they guess wrong, or reacting to a gamut of possible choices, making it much more slow and difficult to punish the Fair FF, which is actually very frequently unsafe.

... I'll type up a blurb on Quick Attack later.

 

[Soul.]

Okay, guys, I have a question. Do we know what moves have frame advantage on shield or not yet?

 

[Pikabunz]

I'm sure none of them do.

 

[Soul.]

Weird. I thought we did. I've been looking at character data with advantage/disadvantage on shield but as far as I know, Pika's wasn't in yet, which was why I wanted to know lol.

 

[isaiah :)]

can someone give me a quick run down of QA angling, restrictions etc how many angles by how many degree's etc.

 

[Hoenn]

We do not have frame advantage on any moves. We do have a lot of moves that usually cannot be punished Oos though without a read
Fair, Dair, and Nair are good examples of this


@ Eonn ESAM is not putting himself in situations where he cannot be punished, ESAM is mixing up his spacing and timing and it makes him harder to punish, this is also what I was talking about with the statement that I made above

Moves like fair and Dair cannot usually be punished unless they know where we are landing

Like if people try shield grabbing fair, we can land behind them and they will completely miss lol

As for Dair, watch how ESAM uses Dair against this mega man
ESAM retreats his Dair because the mega man only tried to punish Dair in place, but the mega man could have dropped shield and dash grabbed it

BUT it becomes a mixup, the mega man cannot punish Dair with dash grab out of shield if ESAM moves forward with it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5eLCNo5BcM

TLDR pikachus aerials can usually only be punished if they know where we are going to lang (Towards them or away from them are the main mixups, you can also land in blind spots where certain moves cannot punish you, like falcon has a spot in between his standing grab and dash grab where neither can punish you, so he has to dash attack you lol)