Pikachu Match-Up Discussion

[Sapphire Dragon]

Formerly a thread from B.W. on Smashmods.

All discussions of Pikachu's matchups in detail will be here. I am merging any discussions already existing from Smashmods into this thread. This will take some time, though. Feel free to start new ones and I will add them to this first post!

As discussions continue, a color will be applied to each character giving a sense of how hard they are for Pika:
Red for difficult;
Yellow for slightly either way;
Green for easy.

Enjoy!



Mewtwo:

Spoiler

I do agree that the match-up is difficult, but I think it's important to note the tools that Pikachu has to help him out in the match-up as well as his weaknesses in it. Pikachu's vertical kill ability with upsmash, upsmash -> Thunder, and uptilt -> Thunder allow Pikachu to score much earlier kills on Mewtwo than many other characters who have to deal with killing him off the side because of his very good recovery and buffed weight. Pikachu also has an easier time dealing with Mewtwo's teleport antics and hover antics better than some other characters. Granted, this is probably because I main Ganon and have only started picking up Pikachu as a serious secondary several weeks ago, but dealing with what I guess could be called hover shield pressure is much easier as Pikachu. Here's an example of what I'm talking about. Basically the Mewtwo is hovering behind your shield, usually out of a teleport, to avoid getting grabbed, but during his hover he can also harass your shield with aerials. Ganon doesn't really have any answers to this besides rolling because of his poor OoS options, but Pikachu can use his upair OoS to get a combo started. Pikachu also has an easier time getting back to stage against Mewtwo than most other characters because of his godlike recovery. Edgeguarding is a strong point of Mewtwo's game and having the ability to get around that helps a ton.

TL;DR
Still a hard match-up because of Mewtwo's tail, but Pikachu has a lot of things that can help him out in this match-up

Disjoints that keep opponents out have always been a big weakness for pikachu, and m2 in particular has a very good anti air game. Against characters like that you gotta really work on your dash dances and weaves, and always mix it up. If you try to just rush them down you will get shut down pretty easily, Pikachus moves get beat outright against characters with huge disjoints. There are ways to get in on mew2, you just have to be patient enough to find them.

I don't think the match-up is unwinnable, but i think it is very difficult. Like its very hard to get in on m2 and m2 has a really good combo game on Pikachu.

when you QaC at m2 he has enough time to react with an utilt.

mewtwo:
you cant really camp him because of his deflector and pika short range air attacks do even come close to the range of his.
ill start iwith edgguarding. most mewtwos teleport onto the stage, if you predict it meet it with an up-smash
when he is on ground QAC's up air juggles are your frineds for racking in % and for the kill fair up-smash is guaranteed on mewtwo unlike ther characters who can shield it
other than that I haven't really played too many mewtwos but I hope this little info helps

Marth:

Spoiler

When grabbed by Marth hold your control stick down and away and you should be fine. Also cross up his shield to avoid getting shield grabbed.

I think Axe is just good vs Marth, not really Pikachu. Axe is also just good, period.

Marth has a lot of stuff that Pikachu has trouble with. Marth's disjointed range vs Pikachu's non-disjointed range causes a lot of problems for Pikachu.

That said if Pikachu can get in, I think he can combo Marth fairly easy.

B.W.:
I guess I'll start by saying Marth is still a terrible match-up for Pikachu. It got slightly easier but the girly man still dominates Chu in almost every area.

MachGO!:
Marth's range would certainly give him the upperhand in terms of approach vs. Pikachu. However, if you keep pressuring the ears of the Marth player with the annoying SFX of Pikachu's nair, you will certainly wear down his focus and desire to play; ultimately causing him to rage quit.

But in all seriousness, I feel like Marth would be a difficult MU. I imagine Pikachu really has to capitalize off of Marth's lack of projectile/massive endlag on his moves

B.W.:
That's about all he could do in Melee as well. You can use the QAC to make yourself confusing and try force an opening, but Marth's sword just gets in the way constantly. It's quite difficult for Pikachu to get in.

drpepper111:
Yep. Still a bad match up. Pikachu has no new tricks to get around Marth.

PM Pika is essentially a Melee Pika with less endlag on a lot of moves.

The lack of new tricks doesn't help Pikachu at all. The only way I think Pikachu can beat Marth here is if his running speed were to be increased.

In need of color category:

Mario:

Spoiler

Mario: his fireballs are annoying Mario likes to rush you down with them and then d-smash or something, you may be able to crouch cancel them but I'm not sure so don't take my word:
Qac are one of the best ways to catch him while he is camping since you can't really camp Mario
For edge guarding Mario is VERY tricky at the ledge with his wall bounce up b but I think a well timed f smash can take care of it not to much information but I hope this helps

TheDevicer:
My friend plays a good Mario and has a pretty easy job playing around my usual tricks. I'd say avoid QAC most of the time since a cape easily causes suicides as well as performs its usual shenanigans. On the bright side, he isn't insanely heavy and isn't too nimble in the air mobility. This makes him easy to uSmash to oblivion. Keep in mind that thunder can be reflected back at you... His recovery is also easy to intercept. Use thunder jolt on a Mario recovering low to force the cape and punish the lag. Any hit will practically guarantee the kill.

Donkey Kong:

Spoiler

i think dk beats pikachu but not by much

sorry if that's vague or something, idk, that's just how i feel (from playing both characters a lot)

Zelda:

Spoiler

Zelda practically has to spam out moves with large cooldowns in order to deal with pika's pressure, so once you establish that you can go in really quickly before she can properly react she'll play a zoning game against you. Since she's a little slower than some other characters you can start mixing up your approaches. Instead of dash->nair, you can dash->rar->double jump->bair.. which in theory will catch out any of her responses to a dash nair that isn't a jab. She seems like she's the type of character that you have to punish while she's doing a move as opposed to taking a hit and punishing her afterwards, which is about the same as how she played in brawl also.

Link:

Spoiler

When links camping ive found that dash dancing just outside of his Zair and fair range is pretty effective, I think the best critical points occur during the endlag of his moves. I dont use QaC too much into link because it can be shut down with nair, I usually just shffl nair or fair And Pikachus projectile is suprisingly good against link.

and when recovering I suggest always sweetspotting the ledge, because of nair, upsmash, up b, and projectiles.

Oh and regarding the f throw, I dont think it is a chaingrab I think it is a regrab. Im fairly certain that Link can spot dodge before you can regrab him. Of course, if you trick him into spot dodging its an easy punish. And dthrow upsmash is pretty good.

Sonic:

Spoiler

I find when I'm playing Sonic (and by god, with the unleashing of Wizz, new players are Sonic-ing everywhere) is that prediction and timing are the most crucial things ever. The spin is annoying as all hell, but a well-timed D-smash has the range to stop him, and leave him with a quick stun, which I almost always u-air on. Sonic is light, and quickly dies in lower ceiling stages. Wave dash and spot dodge help a lot too, but if you don't have a planned follow-up (which is difficult against the fastest creature in PM) then that damned hedgehog just turns around and unleashes more. Quick Attacking away to prep is alright, and Thunder-jolting to rack up percent and keeping him at bay is amazing. Remember that Sonic has next to no range, so keep that to your advantage until he's close to kill percentage. Both characters have great recovery, so playing way off stage may not be the best option either. Hold the center stage, and get ready for the fastest predictions your brain can make!

Following up on Norde's Sonic tips, I've learned that a d-smash does stop sonic's spin. BUT if you charge it early, waiting for him to reach you, sonic will simply jump over it and most likely dair you. One thing I found that works well is when he's charging a spin dash, run towards him and he'll probably approach towards you. If you wavedash backwards you'll usually have enough room to throw that d-smash, and he won't have the reaction time to jump or anything. Being very patient against a sonic will make you observe and predict their moves. Use sonic's wild speed to your advantage.

Also, don't forget that thunder jolt spam. If you throw one out as soon as his spin starts, it'll throw him off as he'll have to quickly stop the dash, attempt to jump over it, or just run into it. Use it as a mindgame.

Kirby:

Spoiler

For Kirby it depends on whether he's being aggressive. I think pika outranges him in general, so if you think kirby's going in you can almost always counteract him with an in place bair or a retraiing bair. But if you mention what he does that gives you trouble maybe we can throw some suggestions at you =P.

Yoshi:

Spoiler

Yoshi is a annoying matchup
If you dont combo quick enough he can nair and just escape
Also watch out for his side b if you get hit by it you gonna take allot of %
And be carefull putting shield pressing yoshi has insane oos options
As for edge guarding goes if you hit him with your up-air tail spike out of his double jump it cancels his upward momentum and just sends him downward and if he tries to side b onto the stage the just down -b allot hope this helps

i played a Yoshi who went back and fourth with his side-b this is what i found out
thudershock/neutral-b will perry it and put Yoshi in little lag this is when you rush him reall fast wth the attack of your choice,
a well timed f-smash can work to its just hard
I think neutral air can also perry with it

In need of any strategy:

Sheik:


Olimar:


Ice Climbers:


DeDeDe:


Wario:


Luigi:


Bowser:


Lucario:


Wolf:


Falco:


Toon Link:


Ganondorf:


Peach:


Pikachu:


Game and Watch:


R.O.B.:


Fox:


Pit:


Ike:


Ness:


Captain Falcon:


Bowser:


Snake:


Lucas:


Jigglypuff:


Squirtle:


Ivysaur:


Diddy Kong:


Zero Suit Samus:


Roy:


Samus:






More soon!

 

[Spoon~]

Anyone have some insight on fighting Sonic? This matchup is beyond annoying lol.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

What are you having trouble with? I remember fighting Sonic in Brawl and his spin ball moves are pretty exploitable once you know the timing. Not sure how it is in P:M though.

 

[Spoon~]

Lol hes definitely not brawl like. Spin spin spin spin is the problem. He beats out pika nair with his aerials and such.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

In general I think spotdodging and wavedashing more would be useful. I don't think he has a projectile so try using thunder jolts to force him to come to you at your pace. Also try using Thunder a bit earlier than he moves to prevent spin abuse.

 

[Spoon~]

Thunder jolts are pretty much moot in this matchup unless for edgeguarding and thunder had too much start up and endlag to use when not followed up by a usmash. Spacing nairs is all you can really do, but sonics nair beats yours so unless i pull some crazy QAC mindgames there isnt much i can do to get in lol.

 

[tangyzizzler]

I think it's weird that everyone's saying Marth is such a bad matchup for Pikachu. Maybe once you transcend past a certain level, it becomes the opposite, because Axe destroyed PewPewU (arguably one of the best Marths in the world right now) at Kings of Cali to the point that PewPewU just completely gave up in their last set. The whole time the match was going on, Ken kept saying Pikachu is one of Marth's hardest match-ups. Here's the video I'm talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tfj8UP8Ctnw

 

[B.W.]

I think Axe is just good vs Marth, not really Pikachu. Axe is also just good, period.

Marth has a lot of stuff that Pikachu has trouble with. Marth's disjointed range vs Pikachu's non-disjointed range causes a lot of problems for Pikachu.

That said if Pikachu can get in, I think he can combo Marth fairly easy.

Also to add to those Mario notes, if it's still like Melee, Mario can chaingrab Pikachu to death easily. I'm not sure if he can in P:M, but my guess is probably.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

Also to add to those Mario notes, if it's still like Melee, Mario can chaingrab Pikachu to death easily. I'm not sure if he can in P:M, but my guess is probably.

That's probably accurate, but I'm not sure how I would feel about adding speculation from Melee about P:M, even if it's just a general thing. They are two different games, so there's lots of potential to be able to do things differently. If someone tests this though, I'll definitely add it (including your post here, too).

 

[B.W.]

You were worrying me Sapphire. I thought you left us with no one in charge of these threads.

I will test it when I get home today.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

Worry not, I only took a break from Smashboards for a while. I love Pikachu (and P:M Charizard) too much to truly leave these boards... like ever. XD

 

[B.W.]

Oh I forgot to test the Mario thing from forever ago.

SD, you should just yell at me to do things until I get them done.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

Haha. I'll worry you on your VMs later today to see if you tested the Mario thing yet. ;p

 

[Strong Badam]

i think dk beats pikachu but not by much

sorry if that's vague or something, idk, that's just how i feel (from playing both characters a lot)

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

Nah, it's all good, since you have experience with P:M. I'll put that in the OP for now, but when you have the time, a good writeup would be awesome.

 

[tripwire]

I played DK against BW's Pikachu. I'd agree with SB that DK is at advantage but i can't give a solid ratio.

 

[B.W.]

My Pikachu will be more prepared whenever we get the chance to play next, so we'll have to try that again because I want play that matchup again while knowing how to use Pikachu a bit better.

 

[tripwire]

Then should I start workin on my DK cuz I never really played him till i played against you. I've just seen alot of videos.

 

[Nausicaa]

People always say Marth is a tough match-up, at first, before slowly realizing Marth is more limited than most other characters, then it's ok. Then Marth comes on again.
What he's limited to is just GODLY.

Pikachu doesn't have to do the same thing twice, and that's where the dynamics of match-ups come in.
Take Falco vs Marth for example. Falco finds the holes, comes up with new pokes, etc. Marth doesn't have to, he just learns how to ready himself for the new stuff and adjusts accordingly, then finds a way to do the same thing (get the grab) and do his work. Falco seems to pull away, Marth catches up, pull away, catch up.

There's no Marth that's familiar enough with proper Pika-play to catch up to a Pika who is familiar enough with proper Marth-play.
This is one of the primary reasons it's so easy for good players with under-developed characters to win more than they should. (not should as in level-of-play, but more than they should relative to the development of dynamics with the given character)
It's gimmik play at the root, and Project M is loaded with it right now, as you can expect.
There's a reason it can take Axe 9 months (yes 9 months) to finally listen to something everyone from me his locals were saying before applying it to his game. And even then, that came from people finally regularly punished him for it, and HE came out to say 'It's not working anymore'.
It happens regularly, all the time in the community, and it's a result of reliance of things that 'shouldn't work. Not just Axe and Pika, literally everyone all the time.
- Over-playing oneself out of awareness of what they're even doing.

Think, 2 years ago, what worked that doesn't now?
With that, 2 years from now, what's working that won't?

Grow and werk on ur sh*****t

Pikachu vs Marth is easy, Marth vs Pikachu is easy.
DK vs Pikachu is easy, Pikachu vs DK is easy.

 

[Anther]

Welp, I think writeups are too much effort per matchup at the moment so I'd like to throw some pros and cons that I feel apply to certain matchups. We could also possibly have a list of things pika's is able to setup on certain characters. (Cgs, throw -> kill setups).

Bowser - Fair is your best aerial approach if you know you have to land inside of him. The last hit of fair will knock him off of his feet even through his crouch armor. Very useful since he practically invalidates nair approaches at low percents.
Other nifty tricks to know in the match are things to beat his usual gimmicks like being able to run up and shield to bait his get up attack from the ledge when he's under 100 by shielding it and punishing his ending lag.
Being able to fthrow chain grab him to get him out of his early percents is also really useful.
Bowser goes to ~50 with fthrow chain grab.

We should eventually find out exact percentages, but I'm fairly confident that pikachu can easily fthrow chain grab bowser and then fthrow to upsmash ala brawl before bowser reaches the edge.

List of characters that I believe can be chain grabbed off of the top of my head:
Ike, Dk, DDD, Snake, Bowser.

But yeah, fair seems to lift up heavies more than other characters which can be really nice for setting up kills.

 

[Garde Noir]

Anyone have some insight on fighting Sonic? This matchup is beyond annoying lol.

I find when I'm playing Sonic (and by god, with the unleashing of Wizz, new players are Sonic-ing everywhere) is that prediction and timing are the most crucial things ever. The spin is annoying as all hell, but a well-timed D-smash has the range to stop him, and leave him with a quick stun, which I almost always u-air on. Sonic is light, and quickly dies in lower ceiling stages. Wave dash and spot dodge help a lot too, but if you don't have a planned follow-up (which is difficult against the fastest creature in PM) then that damned hedgehog just turns around and unleashes more. Quick Attacking away to prep is alright, and Thunder-jolting to rack up percent and keeping him at bay is amazing. Remember that Sonic has next to no range, so keep that to your advantage until he's close to kill percentage. Both characters have great recovery, so playing way off stage may not be the best option either. Hold the center stage, and get ready for the fastest predictions your brain can make!

 

[Paradoxium]

Need help on DDD and Meta-night, very hard match-ups in my opinion. DDD is like a giant wall and Meta-night is stronger, faster, and has a sword.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

DDD: Chaingrab moar

MK: QAC moar

 

[sarge96]

anyone have any tips on taking on peach, her down smash destroys me no what i do, its so aggravating due to the fact one hit put me at 40 or higher percentage an it always sends chu right off the stage

 

[br8k]

anyone have any tips on taking on peach, her down smash destroys me no what i do, its so aggravating due to the fact one hit put me at 40 or higher percentage an it always sends chu right off the stage

Don't crouch cancel her down smash lol.

 

[Jiggle4Life]

anyone have any tips on taking on peach, her down smash destroys me no what i do, its so aggravating due to the fact one hit put me at 40 or higher percentage an it always sends chu right off the stage

don't crouch cancel it but not just that is still will do masisive damage if you get hit by it DI away. it also does good knockback
so just wathc out for it overall

 

[A Legend In The Making]

anyone have any tips on taking on peach, her down smash destroys me no what i do, its so aggravating due to the fact one hit put me at 40 or higher percentage an it always sends chu right off the stage

I've been fighting a mean Peach for a long time, my brother used to destroy me all the time with peach. dont crouch cancel the move, ever. thats pretty obvious. Just dont put yourself in that position to be down smashed, dont crouch next to her, and when she wiffs it just punish

 

[Comet7]

Any advice on the Roy matchup? It seems to give a lot of the range problems Marth's, except his tipper is in the middle, which is always where I'm trying to be, and Pika doesn't like blocking Fsmashes with its head...

 

[Jiggle4Life]

Any advice on the Roy matchup? It seems to give a lot of the range problems Marth's, except his tipper is in the middle, which is always where I'm trying to be, and Pika doesn't like blocking Fsmashes with its head...

sadly Pikachu falls into the weight class that is juggled easy. and CG by roy if he reads your DI so just don't get grabbed and don't get above him without a jump. a well spaced back cant be shield grabbed so it is a safe option
also you can camp t-joltls to make him approached and it might leave him exposed
and QAC to u-air can be a safe approach if not predicted

 

[Garde Noir]

Link Match-up? He's got awesome projectiles and range, and Down Air makes you terrible, especially when Pikachu's killing power involves you being under him a majority of the time.

 

[Jiggle4Life]

Link Match-up? He's got awesome projectiles and range, and Down Air makes you terrible, especially when Pikachu's killing power involves you being under him a majority of the time.

for when link is camping just don't forget that you have a good projectile too and when the time is right charge with a QAC
if you predict the d-air then you can dodge and punish accordingly, allot of links use d-air if they start getting up-air juggled
also when you are being edgeguarded and you are going for a QAC on stage then go above link enough to avoid his grounded up-b spike (not sure what its called) if you get hit by it on the ledge then that's -1 stock
you can also f-throw CG him at low percents and t-jolts is good to use when edgeguarding

 

[Jiggle4Life]

cmon all you pika mains out there lets liven this thread and get as much information we can all put together as possible
just ask about a matchup and im sure someone will answer
just trying to get this thread going again

 

[Comet7]

What to do against Mewtwo?

 

[Jiggle4Life]

mewtwo:
you cant really camp him because of his deflector and pika short range air attacks do even come close to the range of his.
ill start iwith edgguarding. most mewtwos teleport onto the stage, if you predict it meet it with an up-smash
when he is on ground QAC's up air juggles are your frineds for racking in % and for the kill fair up-smash is guaranteed on mewtwo unlike ther characters who can shield it
other than that I haven't really played too many mewtwos but I hope this little info helps

 

[Paradoxium]

Ignore this

 

[Paradoxium]

for when link is camping just don't forget that you have a good projectile too and when the time is right charge with a QAC
if you predict the d-air then you can dodge and punish accordingly, allot of links use d-air if they start getting up-air juggled
also when you are being edgeguarded and you are going for a QAC on stage then go above link enough to avoid his grounded up-b spike (not sure what its called) if you get hit by it on the ledge then that's -1 stock
you can also f-throw CG him at low percents and t-jolts is good to use when edgeguarding

When links camping ive found that dash dancing just outside of his Zair and fair range is pretty effective, I think the best critical points occur during the endlag of his moves. I dont use QaC too much into link because it can be shut down with nair, I usually just shffl nair or fair And Pikachus proctile is suprisingly good against link.

and when recovering I suggest always sweetspotting the ledge, because of nair, upsmash, up b, and projectiles.

Oh and regarding the f throw, I dont think it is a chaingrab I think it is a regrab. Im fairly certain that Link can spot dodge before you can regrab him. Of course, if you trick him into spot dodging its an easy punish. And dthrow upsmash is pretty good.

 

[JakieWinks]

I find when I'm playing Sonic (and by god, with the unleashing of Wizz, new players are Sonic-ing everywhere) is that prediction and timing are the most crucial things ever. The spin is annoying as all hell, but a well-timed D-smash has the range to stop him, and leave him with a quick stun, which I almost always u-air on. Sonic is light, and quickly dies in lower ceiling stages. Wave dash and spot dodge help a lot too, but if you don't have a planned follow-up (which is difficult against the fastest creature in PM) then that damned hedgehog just turns around and unleashes more. Quick Attacking away to prep is alright, and Thunder-jolting to rack up percent and keeping him at bay is amazing. Remember that Sonic has next to no range, so keep that to your advantage until he's close to kill percentage. Both characters have great recovery, so playing way off stage may not be the best option either. Hold the center stage, and get ready for the fastest predictions your brain can make!

Following up on Norde's Sonic tips, I've learned that a d-smash does stop sonic's spin. BUT if you charge it early, waiting for him to reach you, sonic will simply jump over it and most likely dair you. One thing I found that works well is when he's charging a spin dash, run towards him and he'll probably approach towards you. If you wavedash backwards you'll usually have enough room to throw that d-smash, and he won't have the reaction time to jump or anything. Being very patient against a sonic will make you observe and predict their moves. Use sonic's wild speed to your advantage.

Also, don't forget that thunder jolt spam. If you throw one out as soon as his spin starts, it'll throw him off as he'll have to quickly stop the dash, attempt to jump over it, or just run into it. Use it as a mindgame.

 

[Paradoxium]

Following up on Norde's Sonic tips, I've learned that a d-smash does stop sonic's spin. BUT if you charge it early, waiting for him to reach you, sonic will simply jump over it and most likely dair you. One thing I found that works well is when he's charging a spin dash, run towards him and he'll probably approach towards you. If you wavedash backwards you'll usually have enough room to throw that d-smash, and he won't have the reaction time to jump or anything. Being very patient against a sonic will make you observe and predict their moves. Use sonic's wild speed to your advantage.

Also, don't forget that thunder jolt spam. If you throw one out as soon as his spin starts, it'll throw him off as he'll have to quickly stop the dash, attempt to jump over it, or just run into it. Use it as a mindgame.

One thing you must remember is that Sonic is a baiting character, so he will be waiting for you to throw out that Dsmash. It is a great defensive option but it is also very punishable.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

Alright, so I've given this thread a much needed facelift! I put all characters into a section, either only needing a color placement or needing any strategy whatsoever. I think we can all agree that Sheik is one of Pikachu's hardest matchups, so I put her in red already. Let me know which matchups you think deserve what colors, and any strategies if you have them! Thanks

 

[B.W.]

Olimar destroys you guys. Just saying.