Pikachu Discussion

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#1
These are my opinions on the Pikachu match-ups currently, every one who wished to be in this group should post theirs and debate any difference in opinions till we can reach a mutual list!

Pika: dandan / Surri / Star King / King Funk / Boom

Pikachu on Hyrule:

Link: Large Advantage
Fox: Small Advantage
Kirby: Advantage
Falcon: Advantage
Mario: Advantage
Yoshi: Large Advantage
DK: Large Advantage
Ness: Large Advantage
Jigglypuff: Large Advantage
Luigi: Large Advantage
Samus: Large Advantage

Pikachu on Dreamland:

Link: Huge Advantage
Fox: Large Advantage
Kirby: Advantage
Falcon: Large advantage
Mario: Small Advantage
Yoshi: Advantage
DK: Large* Advantage
Ness: Huge Advantage
Jigglypuff: Large Advantage
Luigi: Large Advantage
Samus: Large Advantage
 
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#4
I've honestly always felt Pika vs. Falcon on Hyrule to be about even. He just seems to have the speed and space to get openings more easily, and if he plays conservatively he shouldn't be getting gimped very much.

I agree with Pika having an advantage vs. Mario on Dreamland. What does the star next to the DK matchup mean?
 
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#5
I always found mario on DL probably the closest thing to a even match-up Pikachu has. But that just maybe my style.

Falcon on Hyrule is still really easy to gimp and carry across the stage. Pikachu can camp either corner and have a serious advantage on falcon.

The Asterisk is because im not to sure about the rank. I personally do pretty poorly vs a good DK, but i feel pikachu overall does much better vs DK then i actually do.


Pikachu on Hyrule:

Link: Large Advantage
Fox: Small Advantage
Kirby: Advantage
Falcon: Advantage
Mario: Advantage
Yoshi: Large Advantage
DK: Large Advantage
Ness: Large Advantage
Jigglypuff: Large Advantage
Luigi: Large Advantage
Samus: Large Advantage

Pikachu on Dreamland:

Link: Huge Advantage
Fox: Large Advantage
Kirby: Advantage
Falcon: Advantage
Mario: Advantage
Yoshi: Advantage
DK: Large* Advantage
Ness: Huge Advantage
Jigglypuff: Large Advantage
Luigi: Large Advantage
Samus: Large Advantage
 
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#6
Didn't notice this sub-forum until just now lol >_>

This is separate from the match-up guides, right? That better still be happening.

Surri, I find it strange that you think Mario does better on DL vs Pikachu than he does on Hyrule. Why do you think so?

Things I would change about above list:

Hyrule:
Fox: Even
Yoshi: Advantage

Dreamland:
Falcon: Slight Advantage (not sure)
Mario: Large Advantage
Samus: Huge Advantage (not sure)
 
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#7
I also don't think that Pika vs. Link, Jiggly, and Samus are unbalanced enough to warrant "Large Advantage" on Hyrule. Link can kill Pikachu quite efficiently and controls Hyrule well with his projectiles. Jiggly's air camping and Nair combined with Rest combos seem effective enough to keep Pika under control. For Samus, I'm really not sure, but I feel really comfortable in the matchup on Hyrule by just walling Pikachu out, shooting stuff, and landing surprise dash attacks.

Pika vs. Link on Dreamland is either Large Advantage of Advantage. Again, it's because of his quickly he kills. For what it's worth, malva told me he prefers Link on Dreamland because of how easily he can kill.

For Pika vs. Fox on Dreamland I say either slight advantage or advantage.

I think people either overestimate how good Pikachu is, or I just fail to see such large imbalances in this game. I think the only truly terrible matchup in the game is Fox vs. Samus. Nothing else strikes me as particularly unbalanced besides some specific cases (like Ness on Dreamland vs. some characters). If "Huge Advantage" exists, it really should only apply to those few matchups.
 
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#8
Didn't notice this sub-forum until just now lol >_>

This is separate from the match-up guides, right? That better still be happening.

Surri, I find it strange that you think Mario does better on DL vs Pikachu than he does on Hyrule. Why do you think so?

Things I would change about above list:

Hyrule:
Fox: Even
Yoshi: Advantage

Dreamland:
Falcon: Slight Advantage (not sure)
Mario: Large Advantage
Samus: Huge Advantage (not sure)
I find mario's ability to control the stage via fireballs and the fact that he isn't easily gimped like most of the cast on DL makes him actually some what harder to kill. His simple Uair --> Usmash combos can happen every where due to the platforms, which is a really easy kill.

I dont think fox on hyrule is even because pikachu still has a strong ability to easily kill and set-up kills while suffering the least from any camping then any other char. Fox and pikachu both destroy each other in the tent area, and who has the slight advantage really doesn't matter to much as they can both kill from 0-death easily, as well as adopt an easy combo to kill from most %s. I simply think Pikachu's ability to kill over rides fox's ability to camp and make use of the stage lay out as much as he does vs the other chars.

Some match-ups i have no problem admitting i dont have much experience in, and Yoshi vs Pika on Hyrule is one of them.

I also don't think that Pika vs. Link, Jiggly, and Samus are unbalanced enough to warrant "Large Advantage" on Hyrule. Link can kill Pikachu quite efficiently and controls Hyrule well with his projectiles. Jiggly's air camping and Nair combined with Rest combos seem effective enough to keep Pika under control. For Samus, I'm really not sure, but I feel really comfortable in the matchup on Hyrule by just walling Pikachu out, shooting stuff, and landing surprise dash attacks.

Pika vs. Link on Dreamland is either Large Advantage of Advantage. Again, it's because of his quickly he kills. For what it's worth, malva told me he prefers Link on Dreamland because of how easily he can kill.

For Pika vs. Fox on Dreamland I say either slight advantage or advantage.

I think people either overestimate how good Pikachu is, or I just fail to see such large imbalances in this game. I think the only truly terrible matchup in the game is Fox vs. Samus. Nothing else strikes me as particularly unbalanced besides some specific cases (like Ness on Dreamland vs. some characters). If "Huge Advantage" exists, it really should only apply to those few matchups.
I actually kinda felt pikachu vs Link on DL wasn't as bad as i posted, but on the other hand i feel that's only because the only decent links i play on DL are way better then me. it's hard to tell.

You also over estimate the value of camping vs a pikachu. Link and jigglypuff specifically i find easy to kill on hyrule.

Link's projectiles are relatively easy to deal with for pikachu and killing pikachu isn't as easy for link on hyrule.

Jigglypuff's "air camping" is actually something i've truly seen to be proven effective...but how many people have really tried vs me, i dont know.

Samus feels like a sitting duck on hyrule to me. Her ranged game is weak so she cant really control pikachu at all, and as long as you watch out for Bair in terms of spacing, Pikachu should be able to run away with samus.




Pikachu on Hyrule:

Link: Large Advantage
Fox: Small Advantage
Kirby: Advantage
Falcon: Advantage
Mario: Advantage
Yoshi: Advantage
DK: Large Advantage
Ness: Large Advantage
Jigglypuff: Large Advantage
Luigi: Large Advantage
Samus: Large Advantage

Pikachu on Dreamland:

Link: Large Advantage
Fox: Large Advantage
Kirby: Advantage
Falcon: Advantage
Mario: Advantage
Yoshi: Advantage
DK: Large* Advantage
Ness: Huge Advantage
Jigglypuff: Large Advantage
Luigi: Large Advantage
Samus: Large Advantage

Btw the way I'm going to try and do this is, since we all have simply used my original draft to debate, in order to maintain fairness i'll change it if i my self am convinced or if two or more people believe it. I dunno if that sounds unfair and if it does please tell me how to fix it lol.

I do want this to be completely fair so if you can think of a better system to collaborate the info i have no problem with that. Also note im not going to be stubborn in the least, i'm working towards progression just like everyone else, i hope lol.
 

dandan

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#9
i would say on hyrule:
fox - even (or as close to even with the slightest adv for pika)
samus - huge disadvantage, pika can just run circles around her and there is not much she can do. i like her prospects a lot more on dl.
i would argue a huge advantage on ness too, but that is debatable.

on dl:
i think link is a huge disadvantage, just about anything kills link there and there is not a lot he can do to deny that.
i would say falcon is maybe a slight adv, falcon can do a really good job with the plats and stage movement to avoid pika, i would not go as far as funk to call it even, but not a full blown adv as well.
i feel like dk is advantage, he has a lot of things he can do, and he just gets so much better on dl (though i do not really understand him).
 
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#10
i would say on hyrule:
fox - even (or as close to even with the slightest adv for pika)
samus - huge disadvantage, pika can just run circles around her and there is not much she can do. i like her prospects a lot more on dl.
i would argue a huge advantage on ness too, but that is debatable.

on dl:
i think link is a huge disadvantage, just about anything kills link there and there is not a lot he can do to deny that.
i would say falcon is maybe a slight adv, falcon can do a really good job with the plats and stage movement to avoid pika, i would not go as far as funk to call it even, but not a full blown adv as well.
i feel like dk is advantage, he has a lot of things he can do, and he just gets so much better on dl (though i do not really understand him).
Well for fox on hyrule its already the slightest advantage it can be. I admit it's really close to even but i do feel pika has the edge here.

Link on DL can actually control the stage decently and can actually make getting to link rather difficult (worse then on Hyrule imo), his ability to kill is far greater as well. Playing FireBlasters link semi recently gave me great trouble even with pikachu because he knows how to work DL with Link. I'm pretty torn here because as i said earlier i personally ranked him "huge disadvantage" but changed it when the others disagreed :p

I agree with everything else you said. Except falcon on DL but since it's quickly becoming "my opinion" and not the collective, so it'll be changed!




Pikachu on Hyrule:

Link: Large Advantage
Fox: Small Advantage
Kirby: Advantage
Falcon: Advantage
Mario: Advantage
Yoshi: Advantage
DK: Large Advantage
Ness: Large Advantage
Jigglypuff: Large Advantage
Luigi: Large Advantage
Samus: Large Advantage

Pikachu on Dreamland:

Link: Large Advantage
Fox: Large Advantage
Kirby: Advantage
Falcon: Small Advantage
Mario: Advantage
Yoshi: Advantage
DK:Advantage
Ness: Huge Advantage
Jigglypuff: Large Advantage
Luigi: Large Advantage
Samus: Large Advantage
 
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#11
You also over estimate the value of camping vs a pikachu. Link and jigglypuff specifically i find easy to kill on hyrule.

Link's projectiles are relatively easy to deal with for pikachu and killing pikachu isn't as easy for link on hyrule.

Jigglypuff's "air camping" is actually something i've truly seen to be proven effective...but how many people have really tried vs me, i dont know.

Samus feels like a sitting duck on hyrule to me. Her ranged game is weak so she cant really control pikachu at all, and as long as you watch out for Bair in terms of spacing, Pikachu should be able to run away with samus.
Samus may seem like a sitting duck in theory but that's not how I feel when I play the matchup. I can't really put up a good argument besides asserting that I've played this matchup A LOT more than almost anyone else and that's my gut feeling on it. When I don't do well in this matchup it's nearly always when the opponent is simply way better than me.

When you say Jigglypuff is easy to kill on Hyrule, what do you mean exactly? Easier than normal? Easier with other characters. I really think it's harder because if you can't land an up-smash you're gonna have to eventually land a Bair or back-throw to get that kill at high percent, while Jiggly's punishment game is solid vs. Pikachu. This is certainly not a large advantage. Even advantage is questionable imo.
 
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#12
Pikachu can set-up kills easily vs Jiggly on hyrule. She dies at really low percents allowing for easy combos such as Utilt x2 -->Uair x2 --> Usmash --> thunder to kill. From any point in the mid-percents you can uair --> Usmash if you time it right. I suppose i meant jiggly is easier to kill then most others.

I know it wouldn't determine the match-ups but perhaps we should play some games and test out this stuff :o I'm willing to admit i maybe a little off because playing decent people who use samus and jiggly on hyrule is limited :p
 
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#15
I dunno, I think that comboing Uair into up-smash is pretty situational and hard to do on a careful Jigglypuff. A lot of the times Pika connects with up air it's not gonna be close to the ground.
 
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#16
That'll happen a lot more then you think WITH a careful jiggly. Mostly because you have to bait with Uair and Bair to space.

Combo "ing" into it isn't hard either, Utilt does the trick.
 
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#18
At the very least, Pika vs. Jiggly is noticeably worse on smaller stages than Hyrule so I think the list should reflect that.


Pikachu on Hyrule:

Link: Large Advantage
Fox: Small Advantage
Kirby: Advantage
Falcon: Advantage
Mario: Advantage
Yoshi: Advantage
DK: Large Advantage
Ness: Large Advantage
Jigglypuff: Advantage
Luigi: Large Advantage
Samus: Large Advantage

Pikachu on Dreamland:

Link: Large Advantage
Fox: Large Advantage
Kirby: Advantage
Falcon: Small Advantage
Mario: Advantage
Yoshi: Advantage
DK:Advantage
Ness: Huge Advantage
Jigglypuff: Large Advantage
Luigi: Large Advantage
Samus: Large Advantage
 

Nintendude

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#20
I'm not convinced that Pika is that good against Link on Hyrule, though I'd have to play against Boom's Link again to get a feel for how well he deals with Link's camping game.

Also I thought that Kirby vs. Pika is closer to even than that but I'm not sure.
 

Surri-Sama

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#21
Yeah see if boom would be willing to play as link on hyrule WITH the intent of him camping lol...maybe


I dont think pikachu vs kirby is even anywhere because on both stages, pikachu can do everything kirby can, but better in every aspect.
 

Nintendude

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#22
Whenever I play Boom's Link he camps ridiculously. I don't have to ask him to lol.
I also don't think Kirby is even. When I said "closer to even" I just meant not as unbalanced as "advantage" would suggest. I don't think my opinion there is very educated tho.
 

Surri-Sama

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#23
Yeah i misread that, small advantage sounds fair on hyrule...not sure about DL though.

Even with kirbys decent recovery it's still pretty easy to gimp him on DL, while kirby doesn't have the ease of long combos or gimps as he does vs almost everyone else.

On Hyrule this is lesser because gimping is harder, and areas where kirby excels (such as killing quick with Fsmash) becomes slightly more predominate


Getting boom on hyrule is the trick :p
 
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