Pichu isn't the worst!

[Stormfury12]

I know that the common opinion is that Pichu is the absolute worst character in the game. I honestly don't believe that. I believe Pichu is at least bottom-mid, above Zelda and Mr. G&W at least. Thoughts?

 

[kingPiano]

I know that the common opinion is that Pichu is the absolute worst character in the game. I honestly don't believe that. I believe Pichu is at least bottom-mid, above Zelda and Mr. G&W at least. Thoughts?

Well the main problem is that Zelda and G&W can out-range Pichu and they have more favorable matchups (for instance both can handle ICs, who are a nightmare for Pichu). G&W specifically has massive long lasting hitboxes on all his moves. I still think both can be taken on quite easily by a Pichu though just because he outclasses them in pure speed and recovery.

In all honesty I like that Pichu is at or near the bottom and I'd never want it to change. That means people underestimate him to an extreme extent, and that means it's much easier to beat people at tourneys that play top tiers and have never faced a Pichu before (it also makes it that much more humiliating). In the words of Bizzaro "EAAAAASSYYYY MONNNNAAYYYY!"

In reality he is higher on the tier list, I really think wherever Pikachu is on the Tier List Pichu also belongs close behind him. He's got advantages on Pikachu that offset the self damage and the lack of range on his moves. I'd consider them equal but Pikachu's tail spike ability and impressive F, D and U smash range makes him much better (also his hit box on up-b)

 

[Stormfury12]

Yeah I completely agree I just have a hard time believing that pichu is below Boswer, ness, and Kirby imo.

 

[Comet7]

pikachu also has a much better crouch cancel than us with is huge in some matchups, especially marth. having a hitbox on quick attack is also really useful, and not being paper weight is nice as well, and pika's tech rolls are slightly better. if pichu had these he would be a much better character.

i'd put pichu over ness, kirby, and bowser, but i'm really hesitant about the rest since the few tools that the other low tiers have are really, really good. as pichu we have some pretty good moves of our own but only a few have disjoint which is only vertical, and his only way to threaten horizontally is nair which can be outranged and jolt which is useful if used sparingly but not too good otherwise. (insert other pichu flaws that i shouldn't have to mention), but at least we still have some tools.

 

[kingPiano]

Hmm I think you both are terribly underestimating Ness, or maybe you haven't played or seen a good Ness. They are scary to play against.

- One of the most powerful back throws
- His Fair and Bair are AMAZING
- can DJC which leads into so many combos and massive spamming damage much like in SSB64
- He's got a meteor smash Dair with good range and his Up air is one of the best, can juggle, low lag, and has KO potential early
- Long range dash attack and his u-tilt is fast and reaches

He's also got very useful edge guarding options with the PK fire and his Neutral B is no joke.

Can be an easy character once off stage, but deadly on the stage. I don't like fighting good Nesses at all, I prefer Zelda over them.

 

[Stormfury12]

I've actually never fought a Ness player in Melee lol, I'vve been to like 5 tournaments and no Ness TT_TT so I'm going off of my own exp with him. I still believe a good Pichu can defeat him without too much of a problem.

 

[kingPiano]

I've actually never fought a Ness player in Melee lol, I'vve been to like 5 tournaments and no Ness TT_TT so I'm going off of my own exp with him. I still believe a good Pichu can defeat him without too much of a problem.

Might want to watch some good Ness matches then I think you'll change you mind about his tier placement. He 100% is above Pichu. I'd put him in-between Pikachu and Pichu, his Fair alone makes him able to stop almost every Pichu advance. I'd say Ness has a strong advantage in the match-up.

Mofo is probably the best, he's beaten some well known Falcon and Falcos
http://youtu.be/wbqze0rnfQs?t=40s
He loses this set barely but it shows how ruthless and aggressive a Ness can be seeing as he's going against Hax in his prime (one of the best Falcons ever). At 6:30 there is a 0 to 109% combo....on Hax

And then there is HungryBox who has started using him in competitive play, he almost took out Armada with him after going through brackets winning with Ness. HB doesn't even really have Ness tech or fundamentals down and he still does really well with him.

There's also the yo yo glitch which actually isn't too hard to pull off and it's basically a 0% death for some chars. Mofo uses both glitches in that vid and at 7:32 you can see him unleash the 2nd one.

 

[Comet7]

uh, there are a lot of spots between pikachu and pichu... ness also has a really bad weight for combos, and aside from fair and dash attack, he doesn't have much range at all that doesn't have a ton of cooldown.

pichu can cg falcon into up smash for a kill, if you want to talk about falcon. falcon also isn't the best character to convince other people why a low tier is good since he's the best high tier matchup (i think falcon's mid but w/e) for most low tiers not named zelda. the hax video is also almost 5 years old lol. i'd be more interested in what he can do against the other high tiers.

armada was playing young link so okay. also he used double jump cancel and did well and is hungrybox so he probably has fundamentals down. i also just read the ness guide in their boards (outdated but it doesn't matter for this) and the only real ATs are stuff with pk thunder and pk thunder 2. more on hungrybox and armada: i know armada picked up young link because he can camp puff really well to deal with hungrybox since he thinks that the peach vs puff mu is really bad. i wouldn't be surprised if the ness only came out to deal with young link better. everyone else probably lost because hungrybox is the better player.

the yo-yo glitch is banned now.

his grab range is also complete crap which is a shame because back throw is really good. at least double jump cancels are good. my opinion on ness still stands; the only reason i typed this was so others wouldn't be misinformed about ness since you mainly talked about what he can do without including what makes him a bad character. think what you wish to, but keep his poor traits in mind.

 

[kingPiano]

uh, there are a lot of spots between pikachu and pichu... ness also has a really bad weight for combos, and aside from fair and dash attack, he doesn't have much range at all that doesn't have a ton of cooldown.

pichu can cg falcon into up smash for a kill, if you want to talk about falcon. falcon also isn't the best character to convince other people why a low tier is good since he's the best high tier matchup (i think falcon's mid but w/e) for most low tiers not named zelda. the hax video is also almost 5 years old lol. i'd be more interested in what he can do against the other high tiers.

armada was playing young link so okay. also he used double jump cancel and did well and is hungrybox so he probably has fundamentals down. i also just read the ness guide in their boards (outdated but it doesn't matter for this) and the only real ATs are stuff with pk thunder and pk thunder 2. more on hungrybox and armada: i know armada picked up young link because he can camp puff really well to deal with hungrybox since he thinks that the peach vs puff mu is really bad. i wouldn't be surprised if the ness only came out to deal with young link better. everyone else probably lost because hungrybox is the better player.

the yo-yo glitch is banned now.

his grab range is also complete crap which is a shame because back throw is really good. at least double jump cancels are good.

DJC is literally the easiest thing to do, you actually can't play Ness without doing it. It's just attacking once you double jump....HBox wasn't using any of the advanced edgeguarding tech or the PK fire DJC and edge cancels and such, it was quite obvious he had just starting picking him up for matchups. Armada's also the one that made YL what he is currently, people used to think YL was low tier and forgot about him until Armada started using him at nationals (Chudat was the only before that by 6 years).

Again Comet play a good Ness and then let's talk. You basically just talked yourself into a circle there, and none of it is coming from a place of experience (once again). You need to get your facts straight as well; Yo Yo glitch is not banned very often, it's banned about the same amount as Wobbling is banned in nationals and regional. Either way with or without Ness can be very difficult to deal with. And what in the ever loving s*** are you talking about "ness also has a really bad weight for combos"? He has a unique weight which MAKES him weird to combo, not a lot of guaranteed standard FF or floaty combos on him or chainthrows. And range? his uair, bair, F and U tilt, his fsmash, etc they all have range and his aerials kill much faster than Pichu.

Wherever Ness might end up on the tier list he should be above Pichu always, he has a lot more ways to approach and his Fair alone gives him much better matchups. Another main problem with Pichu is that his moves don't do a large base amount and so few are usuable so they become really weak fast because of stale move negation, Ness doesn't really have this problem since most of his moves are med-high damage and almost all can be utilized.

Also his grab range is not complete crap, not sure what you've been smoking but I rarely see a Ness whiff a grab on account of range. It's not the best but it's pretty easy to get a grab when you want, it's better than Pichu's. Ness also has a much better Wavedash which leads to a great WD grab game.

And Falcon can't be mid, because a Falcon has won nationals before and has done it more than once. (Isai won with him a few times and used to always place top 3 at MLG and other nationals with Falcon, Ken had even used him partially through multiple nationals which lead to 1st places, Darkrain has won a national & 3 large regionals with him and Hax also placed high consistently using Falcon)

 

[DerfMidWest]

Lol I used to think ness had potential. He's definitely a cool character, but cc literally makes him innert.

I think Pichu is better than like... Roy, bowser, and ness. But thats probably it.
Kirby/Pichu are about equally bad.

I also think roy is the most garbage character in the game.

 

[kingPiano]

Lol I used to think ness had potential. He's definitely a cool character, but cc literally makes him innert.

I think Pichu is better than like... Roy, bowser, and ness. But thats probably it.
Kirby/Pichu are about equally bad.

I also think roy is the most garbage character in the game.

I actually really like Roy moslty just because he has the massive disjointed hitboxes; he can actually take on a Fox/Falco since he has combos on them and counter destroys their recovery, and most others (and he's got the amazing D-tilt, grab range, Wavedash, DD, and a great range F-smash that can kill at 70% on mid weight characters.

I'm not trying to convince you but watch the Neo vs Husband set (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dq244s9hYs) or any of Sethlon's vids against top tier top players. His counter on edgeguard is very useful and practical, I've tried it in tourney too and instead of dodging those hard reads just counter them. People rarely expect it and it has 1.5x knockback and damage, it's surprisingly useful if you have good reaction time.

I still can't believe you guys and Ness, kind of blows my mind (and I'm not even a fan of him in this game). I agree with most in the belief that Kirby and Bowser definitely belong below Pichu. But you see Ness mains commonly going up against top tiers and placing in brackets (not high but they are placing and the sets are usually close). You don't really see any Pichus doing that, I know there is a lack of people that main him but still you just don't.

 

[That1Roy]

#PIchu4SmashDLC

 

[Comet7]

I actually really like Roy moslty just because he has the massive disjointed hitboxes; he can actually take on a Fox/Falco since he has combos on them and counter destroys their recovery, and most others (and he's got the amazing D-tilt, grab range, Wavedash, DD, and a great range F-smash that can kill at 70% on mid weight characters.

I'm not trying to convince you but watch the Neo vs Husband set (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dq244s9hYs) or any of Sethlon's vids against top tier top players. His counter on edgeguard is very useful and practical, I've tried it in tourney too and instead of dodging those hard reads just counter them. People rarely expect it and it has 1.5x knockback and damage, it's surprisingly useful if you have good reaction time.

I still can't believe you guys and Ness, kind of blows my mind (and I'm not even a fan of him in this game). I agree with most in the belief that Kirby and Bowser definitely belong below Pichu. But you see Ness mains commonly going up against top tiers and placing in brackets (not high but they are placing and the sets are usually close). You don't really see any Pichus doing that, I know there is a lack of people that main him but still you just don't.

about everyone except kirby has huge combos on spacies, so that doesn't say too much. it's only on FD that he can 0-death them anyway, which spacies should ban against roy unless they're high because of it. the matchup for spacies against roy is actually pretty bad for roy too, around 65-35 or 70-30 unless on FD (if you don't believe me ask the roy boards). do you want to also mention his lack of combos on non-fast fallers, crappy aerials aside from range, awful combo weight (i was probably wrong about this with ness but it's common knowledge for people who use roy), and awful recovery? pretty much the only thing he has going for him is his neutral game. and if you want to talk about f smash why don't we talk about how he converts into that...so pretty much tech chasing or f throw pivot f smash which only works at low percent.

why don't you get something relevant and then we'll talk. you could at least pull an m2k set here. and yes counter has a place in edgeguarding but it only works (well, it's only optimal) when spacies are firefoxing/firebirding directly under the ledge and that should be a dead animal no matter which character you play.

maybe because people were more dedicated to ness than pichu? i'm honestly picking up sheik now so i can have a chance to win aside from never getting hit. tourney placing is a really bad way to gauge how good a character is for a variety of reasons that i won't go into.

 

[kingPiano]

about everyone except kirby has huge combos on spacies, so that doesn't say too much. it's only on FD that he can 0-death them anyway, which spacies should ban against roy unless they're high because of it. the matchup for spacies against roy is actually pretty bad for roy too, around 65-35 or 70-30 unless on FD (if you don't believe me ask the roy boards). do you want to also mention his lack of combos on non-fast fallers, crappy aerials aside from range, awful combo weight (i was probably wrong about this with ness but it's common knowledge for people who use roy), and awful recovery? pretty much the only thing he has going for him is his neutral game. and if you want to talk about f smash why don't we talk about how he converts into that...so pretty much tech chasing or f throw pivot f smash which only works at low percent.

why don't you get something relevant and then we'll talk. you could at least pull an m2k set here. and yes counter has a place in edgeguarding but it only works (well, it's only optimal) when spacies are firefoxing/firebirding directly under the ledge and that should be a dead animal no matter which character you play.

maybe because people were more dedicated to ness than pichu? i'm honestly picking up sheik now so i can have a chance to win aside from never getting hit. tourney placing is a really bad way to gauge how good a character is for a variety of reasons that i won't go into.

Yikes it sound like you have no clue about Roy. He has combos on pretty much every character (floaties you have to be creative with) because he has range like Marth, he is only slightly slower. Why do you consistently talk about stuff you don't know anything about? It's puzzling. You have nothing to prove here, if you aren't experienced with a character or a matchup then just don't say anything about it.

As for easy F-smash setups with Roy that you completely missed...

D-tilt > F smash ---- THIS is a bread and butter combo
or
Fair > D-tilt > F-smash
Fair > F-tilt (at mid percent) > F-Smash
Fair > U-tilt (at low percent) > F-Smash

You can also
Nair (pop up on platform) > tech chase > Fair > Fsmash (can add in D-tilt again between)

His DED is much better than Marth and can be used in more situations (and edgeguarding with right timing) and his Up Smash is pretty amazing for platforms and anyone approaching from above. His Up throw also kills sooner than Marth. His recovery does suck; this is obvious, but so does the recovery of Marth, Fox, Falco, Falcon, Ganondorf, etc. Recovery really isn't the prime factor in how good a character is...Roy isn't the best but he could beat many other characters if players are the same skill.

 

[Comet7]

so for stuff that works on people that aren't spacies...

Fair > F-tilt (at mid percent) > F-Smash
Fair > U-tilt (at low percent) > F-Smash

okay so stuff that doesn't kill. that's the best roy's going to get, pretty much. actually, i forgot sour spot up air to f smash so there's that. i'd say sour fair to f smash but that could probably only work if roy's moving forward or the opponent DI's in for whatever reason. the idea here is that he'll end up getting the opponent into the "i can't combo" percent like marth unless he lands a f smash or a down smash, which isn't easy to do against people who know the matchup.

already knew that, DED still isn't that good even though it's better than marth's. it's sometimes useful, but not gamebreaking at all. for up throw, it's still not exactly a kill throw...

i also found a relevant vid for you... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOx8c-Dxis4 sethlon still lost even though he was making a ton of right choices.

 

[kingPiano]

so for stuff that works on people that aren't spacies...

Fair > F-tilt (at mid percent) > F-Smash
Fair > U-tilt (at low percent) > F-Smash

okay so stuff that doesn't kill. that's the best roy's going to get, pretty much. actually, i forgot sour spot up air to f smash so there's that. i'd say sour fair to f smash but that could probably only work if roy's moving forward or the opponent DI's in for whatever reason. the idea here is that he'll end up getting the opponent into the "i can't combo" percent like marth unless he lands a f smash or a down smash, which isn't easy to do against people who know the matchup.

already knew that, DED still isn't that good even though it's better than marth's. it's sometimes useful, but not gamebreaking at all. for up throw, it's still not exactly a kill throw...

i also found a relevant vid for you... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOx8c-Dxis4 sethlon still lost even though he was making a ton of right choices.

Already seen this, Sethlon makes a lot of mistakes and one match he had like a 2 stock lead and squandered it. He also misses a lot of edgegards. Sethlon is usually pretty consistent, but he does get caught up in being more flashy and likes to combo (which is why he's fun to watch). Neo is probably the best, but I haven't seen him play in forever. Pyro is probably the newest Roy; a lot of potential, but he's hot and cold.

The main problem is; and you may not know this Comet, but Peach is about 14 spots higher on the tier list. Peach is considered top tier *spoiler alert* Always has been in the S tier since the beginning pretty much and was at spot #4 for a while. She has a deadly D smash (can do 60-70 if DI'ed into, does 54 to Sethlon in that match), and her aerial game is way OP not to mention she's hard to combo, has turnips (one of the best projectiles), and can recover from anywhere. That was also a solid Peach main, and the matchup is actually like 30:70 for Roy - Peach. It's like saying Pichu sucks and then referencing an Ice Climbers match.

And up throw is an often used KO option when percents get to high to combo. The same goes for Marth you'll see Marth players going for up throws on small box stages very often when the percents of the opponent break 170% (aerials hit too far but not far enough to KO). Roy's up throw off YS top KOs Marth at 145%, Fox at 175% and JigglyPuff at 125%.

And to address your ignorant statements about no combos leading to KOs *facepalm* c'mon really, are you that naive? On Yoshi's Island there are like 100s of ways to end combos with an F-smash starting anywhere from 40-120% (very common to D-tilt them up to a platform follow up nair or Fair > Fsmash). Pretty much any stage with platforms has easy KO combos with Roy. FD is the only real tough one where you have to get creative using his other moves, but he's got easy edgeguarding usually just a back throw off can finish a stock at any %. Heck even D-tilt > D-tilt > F-smash KOs when DI is read right or they DI wrong. There is a 60%+ combo on Fox/Falco D-tilt > dash grab > F throw > D-tilt x 3 > grab again THEN you can do more damage from a d throw DED.

Also I never see any other Roys do this but it works 100% for Fox and Falco's recoveries.
It doesn't matter where they angle their Up-b (as you were whining about), as Roy you just jump out right in front of them and counter as they are about to launch. Bye Bye. And you have more than enough time to double jump back and up b safely to the ledge, on any stage this is a guaranteed kill as low as 30% on Fox/Falco.

 

[Stormfury12]

I don't see Ness as too bad really but I feel like Pichu has options against him, particularly when it comes to air game. I fought a pretty good Ness the other day and anytime Ness is off stage, Pichu's N-air will kill him pretty quickly. Pichus N-air is the bane of several characters in terms of recovery, such as Fox, Falco, Ness, C.Falcon, and Ganon. I do think that Ness is about 50/50. Tier list wise? I still dont care much for tiers but I'd say theyre about equall. Now Mr.G&W gives me trouble :/

 

[Stormfury12]

Oh and Roy is a sleeper character lol. Easily the most underrated character in the game.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I didn't feel like reading anything after the first two post after mine, but roy is trash.
He can't actually combo, since his moves have 0 hitstun, but he can chain like 2 or 3 moves together on occassion, but combos with roy are more about positional advantage than anything, which he can't hold for very long.

In the modern metagame, the few things roy did have going for him are basically innert. He can't lock people on platforms since everyone knows how to shield drop now, he can't approach because CC and shields exist (and his moves are all like -800 on shields), he can't even reverse blazer (or do any of his old combo strings) because people figured out how to SDI.

Roy has a dash dance, which is awesome, but the only thing he can do out of it is grab, since he does not have a single move that is safe in neutral. Sadly, even with a better DD than marth, he has 1/16 the options, primarily because his dtilt doesn't work and isn't threatening and pivot fsmash is a joke.

Oh and about counter, people can just sweetspot to avoid it. I'm not sure if you can tech roy's counter, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Anyway, I legitimately think roy is the worst character in the game (or at least tied with bowser and/or ness). He has a couple ok MUs (pichu being the only one that really comes to mind, and thats actually still really even)

Don't take credit away from incredibly players like sethlon who actually do incredible things with roy because they are great players. Their character still blows though.

Ness is really bad too for a lot of reasons, he's really cool and I love him, but he's so bad.

 

[kingPiano]

I didn't feel like reading anything after the first two post after mine, but roy is trash.
He can't actually combo, since his moves have 0 hitstun, but he can chain like 2 or 3 moves together on occassion, but combos with roy are more about positional advantage than anything, which he can't hold for very long.

In the modern metagame, the few things roy did have going for him are basically innert. He can't lock people on platforms since everyone knows how to shield drop now, he can't approach because CC and shields exist (and his moves are all like -800 on shields), he can't even reverse blazer (or do any of his old combo strings) because people figured out how to SDI.

Roy has a dash dance, which is awesome, but the only thing he can do out of it is grab, since he does not have a single move that is safe in neutral. Sadly, even with a better DD than marth, he has 1/16 the options, primarily because his dtilt doesn't work and isn't threatening and pivot fsmash is a joke.

Oh and about counter, people can just sweetspot to avoid it. I'm not sure if you can tech roy's counter, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Anyway, I legitimately think roy is the worst character in the game (or at least tied with bowser and/or ness). He has a couple ok MUs (pichu being the only one that really comes to mind, and thats actually still really even)

Don't take credit away from incredibly players like sethlon who actually do incredible things with roy because they are great players. Their character still blows though.

Ness is really bad too for a lot of reasons, he's really cool and I love him, but he's so bad.

Yes it's pretty clear you didn't read anything. Everything you just said makes little to no sense.

Doesn't matter if they sweet spot if you jump in front counter right before they launch > dbl jump up b back. Falco/Fox is gone at 30-40 percent. Not difficult, not only that but it's very difficult for them to sweet spot and avoid the counter bubble (it has a generous hit circle)

And almost everyone considers Roy's D tilt better than Marth's. I've heard many Marth players and seasoned commentators say that if Marth had Roy's D-tilt he'd be even better. It has more hitstun and it pops them up for easy combos starting from 0%, it's also low scaling so it can set up combos easily up to 100%+

Pivot F-smash is a joke? lol did you watch the Neo - Husband set? First kill, walk away Pivot F-smash. Very useful and people usually never react in time, I see often used.

His Flare Blade goes very low has a huge range and can be used effectively as a jump in attack and edgeguard, His 1st hit of side b is better than a jab and an be comboed after with a grab or d tilt....eh you know what? I'm not going to go on anymore you seem incapable of reading and too lazy anyways. Troll away. 0 Hitstun, you're such a joke.

 

[Comet7]

Already seen this, Sethlon makes a lot of mistakes and one match he had like a 2 stock lead and squandered it. He also misses a lot of edgegards. Sethlon is usually pretty consistent, but he does get caught up in being more flashy and likes to combo (which is why he's fun to watch). Neo is probably the best, but I haven't seen him play in forever. Pyro is probably the newest Roy; a lot of potential, but he's hot and cold.

yeah, it's a shame that he likes to combo because roy is bad at that. i wish there were roys that made it far (i don't recall seeing pyro much at all and i watched a LOT of melee sets). the character itself being the problem is definitely a consideration you should take, but i'll leave it at that for now.

The main problem is; and you may not know this Comet, but Peach is about 14 spots higher on the tier list. Peach is considered top tier *spoiler alert* Always has been in the S tier since the beginning pretty much and was at spot #4 for a while. She has a deadly D smash (can do 60-70 if DI'ed into, does 54 to Sethlon in that match), and her aerial game is way OP not to mention she's hard to combo, has turnips (one of the best projectiles), and can recover from anywhere. That was also a solid Peach main, and the matchup is actually like 30:70 for Roy - Peach. It's like saying Pichu sucks and then referencing an Ice Climbers match.

first, please consider being a nice person. i've been respectfully debating with you, and you really didn't have to be obnoxious. down smash is common knowledge, aerial game too, and it's a shame that those two things pretty much destroy roy's crouch cancel which can sometimes be good... the other stuff is common knowledge as well... no, that's pretty much normal for roy's matchups. if i wanted to mention something like pichu vs ice climbers, i'd mention roy vs ice climbers.

And up throw is an often used KO option when percents get to high to combo. The same goes for Marth you'll see Marth players going for up throws on small box stages very often when the percents of the opponent break 170% (aerials hit too far but not far enough to KO). Roy's up throw off YS top KOs Marth at 145%, Fox at 175% and JigglyPuff at 125%.

yeah, it's a shame that percents can get too high for him to combo a lot because his moves are like marth's with more startup, more cooldown, and overall worse properties (down tilt trajectory <3 though). a throw killing jiggly at 125% on yoshi's story is also not impressive. it's nice that it can kill, but jigglypuff should never live that long on that stage so it shouldn't be relevant (and 125 on YS is, once again, not impressive).

And to address your ignorant statements about no combos leading to KOs *facepalm* c'mon really, are you that naive? On Yoshi's Island there are like 100s of ways to end combos with an F-smash starting anywhere from 40-120% (very common to D-tilt them up to a platform follow up nair or Fair > Fsmash). Pretty much any stage with platforms has easy KO combos with Roy. FD is the only real tough one where you have to get creative using his other moves, but he's got easy edgeguarding usually just a back throw off can finish a stock at any %. Heck even D-tilt > D-tilt > F-smash KOs when DI is read right or they DI wrong. There is a 60%+ combo on Fox/Falco D-tilt > dash grab > F throw > D-tilt x 3 > grab again THEN you can do more damage from a d throw DED.

"yoshi's island." being able to get kills on the stage with the closest blast zones is not a strong argument. i also have to wonder how anybody wouldn't manage to jump or DI out of it (i'd just SDI out of the nair lol, and for fair it likely wouldn't be necessary). for down throw, why can't (most of the cast here) pick one of these options to just beat it: shine stall to jump (spacies), delayed jump to air dodge/up b (about everyone), immediate jump to airdodge (about everybody), and yoshi can do anything. there are also a lot of other characters who can wreck spacies (G&W, mewtwo, pichu) that are really bad...

Also I never see any other Roys do this but it works 100% for Fox and Falco's recoveries.
It doesn't matter where they angle their Up-b (as you were whining about), as Roy you just jump out right in front of them and counter as they are about to launch. Bye Bye. And you have more than enough time to double jump back and up b safely to the ledge, on any stage this is a guaranteed kill as low as 30% on Fox/Falco.

falco should be dead already, so w/e. for fox, if he's far enough from the stage, see falco. if he's close enough to firefox high, i'm sorry about your dropped edgeguard.

i'm just going to leave comments in bold because it's easier with larger posts

if you really want to prove me wrong though, find a video with good players that is still relevant and not outdated like husband vs neo of somebody actually doing legit combos with roy and doing this stuff. honestly, you should try thinking about this as well. why don't modern roys do (insert thing)? it's probably because it doesn't work against people who know the matchup at all or have the skill required to reach the standard that allows them to avoid it. this is true for a lot of low tier characters and not just roy, to show that i'm not biased against roy.

 

[Kahnu]

Pichu > Kirby tbh

 

[kingPiano]

i'm just going to leave comments in bold because it's easier with larger posts

if you really want to prove me wrong though, find a video with good players that is still relevant and not outdated like husband vs neo of somebody actually doing legit combos with roy and doing this stuff. honestly, you should try thinking about this as well. why don't modern roys do (insert thing)? it's probably because it doesn't work against people who know the matchup at all or have the skill required to reach the standard that allows them to avoid it. this is true for a lot of low tier characters and not just roy, to show that i'm not biased against roy.

I don't know why I'm even responding, every-time you respond it's a bunch of backpedaling and dodging the real questions and points. In college I met a lot of contrarians that just like to argue even when they aren't well versed on the subject matter, you seem to fit that bill perfectly. Like with Ness, it was clear you didn't have much prior knowledge but still you argue. If you start discussing Smash 4 I won't butt in because I don't have a clue other than from a casual point of view (I just know that Mario is better than people thought initially and Rosalina is OP).

Before AmSa came along and showed that Yoshi could take on top tiers, you'd be the ignorant one also saying the same crap about Yoshi. "He has no OoS options" "He has no Up B jump" "recovery sucks". Roy and Yoshi are in the same location on the tier list currently.

And your point about why don't other Roys do (insert thing AKA what I use with my Roy)...do you realize how silly that statement is? Pyro does some of the stuff I talk about but Sethlon doesn't. Just because Sethlon plays the most Roy doesn't mean he is the be all end all of everything on Roy. With such a small user base a lot of smart inventive stuff is bound to never get used or discovered. Same thing on all Yoshi mains before AmSa, 80% of the stuff he does other Yoshi's dont do. So I guess all that stuff doesn't work either since no other Yoshi's before do (insert AmSa thing). Except it does work....and on top tiers top players.

Sethlon is a cool guy and I'm glad he gave Roy a very long run, but he's no where near an AmSa or an Axe. He's not even a 1/3 of what they are just based on how many edgeguards he drops, he SDs, and hasn't really had any inventive tech or meta that he's come up with since the Neo mained him. Think about it if no one used Pikachu like Pikachad or Axe did then he'd be 7 spots lower (still between Link and Young Link, in the low tier section).

I'm not saying Roy is amazing but to put Pichu above Roy. Now that is hilarious and I have no doubt everyone else on this site would laugh at you for saying such a ridiculous thing. Roy has much more favorable match-ups (almost even with Fox), just because you're clueless about a character or don't really play him doesn't mean he sucks automatically. You just regurgitate what you hear others say and your rebuttal is a bunch of "learn as you go/ Just looked it up" points about why Roy is no good. Seems to be your main strategy for any argument -> I just read it on the internet > I'm an expert already.

Point is there really isn't an AmSa for Roy or anything even close currently. Neo was the closest and he hasn't played in a long time. If 2 people main Roy for every 100 people that main Marth of course you're never going to find a Ken or a PPMD of Roy. Roy is not as good as Marth, but he's where he belongs pretty much on the tier list (maybe 1-2 spots higher).

And c'mon there are Roy combos just watch any video of him in any tournament, you must be blind or not know what a combo is. The Neo vs Husband vid is right there, combos for days. Many more are on YouTube you can watch, there even some Roy combo vids from actual bracket matches Ohhhh La La.

 

[kingPiano]

Pichu > Kirby tbh

Ok....Pichu is already above Kirby

 

[the muted smasher]

Lol roy nearly even with fox.

Even if he did 100% death throw fox on fd he is still pretty bad vs fox.

It's like someone trying to tell me marth would still be a counter to fox on fd if they trimmed his grab grab, lost tipper d tilt, made oos much worse, and slowed down in every way possible. Roy can't even run as fast as pichu.

Roy is the worst in the game the few roy players out there get away with a loot of gimmicks. The gimmick normally is roy landing good hits. Hello from ics, puff, samus, peach, gannon and luigi.

 

[kingPiano]

Lol roy nearly even with fox.

Even if he did 100% death throw fox on fd he is still pretty bad vs fox.

It's like someone trying to tell me marth would still be a counter to fox on fd if they trimmed his grab grab, lost tipper d tilt, made oos much worse, and slowed down in every way possible. Roy can't even run as fast as pichu.

Roy is the worst in the game the few roy players out there get away with a loot of gimmicks. The gimmick normally is roy landing good hits. Hello from ics, puff, samus, peach, gannon and luigi.

I'm sorry you're the guy that thinks grabs clanks with attacks right? Hi

I'm betting you've never played as Roy in tournament or against a good Roy. Not even sure if you own a copy of Melee anymore. Thanks for your valuable input.

The Roy:Fox matchup is 40:60

 

[the muted smasher]

You're very boring.

Also good at misreading.

Care about that with these

http://www.voodoodeprince.com/VoodooChants.htm

 

[Comet7]

I don't know why I'm even responding, every-time you respond it's a bunch of backpedaling and dodging the real questions and points. In college I met a lot of contrarians that just like to argue even when they aren't well versed on the subject matter, you seem to fit that bill perfectly. Like with Ness, it was clear you didn't have much prior knowledge but still you argue. If you start discussing Smash 4 I won't butt in because I don't have a clue other than from a casual point of view (I just know that Mario is better than people thought initially and Rosalina is OP).

tbh you sound even more ridiculous

Before AmSa came along and showed that Yoshi could take on top tiers, you'd be the ignorant one also saying the same crap about Yoshi. "He has no OoS options" "He has no Up B jump" "recovery sucks". Roy and Yoshi are in the same location on the tier list currently.

the difference between roy and yoshi is that yoshi has tons of tech that can make him WAY better (invincible egg ledge stalls, pivoting, etc), but only aMSa really does it. roy doesn't have tech like that.

And your point about why don't other Roys do (insert thing AKA what I use with my Roy)...do you realize how silly that statement is? Pyro does some of the stuff I talk about but Sethlon doesn't. Just because Sethlon plays the most Roy doesn't mean he is the be all end all of everything on Roy. With such a small user base a lot of smart inventive stuff is bound to never get used or discovered. Same thing on all Yoshi mains before AmSa, 80% of the stuff he does other Yoshi's dont do. So I guess all that stuff doesn't work either since no other Yoshi's before do (insert AmSa thing). Except it does work....and on top tiers top players.

or there just isn't any tech to be discovered. he's a worse marth, and all of the relevant marth tech is already known.

Sethlon is a cool guy and I'm glad he gave Roy a very long run, but he's no where near an AmSa or an Axe. He's not even a 1/3 of what they are just based on how many edgeguards he drops, he SDs, and hasn't really had any inventive tech or meta that he's come up with since the Neo mained him. Think about it if no one used Pikachu like Pikachad or Axe did then he'd be 7 spots lower (still between Link and Young Link, in the low tier section).

maybe there isn't any new tech since the character doesn't have any, or maybe the other characters have a higher skill curve with the tech (yoshi) and fundamentals/knowing what specifically to do in every situation/hard to explain (pikachu). this is true for a lot of characters, and yes i'm no roy expert, but the other two definitely have more potential at the higher levels of play.

I'm not saying Roy is amazing but to put Pichu above Roy. Now that is hilarious and I have no doubt everyone else on this site would laugh at you for saying such a ridiculous thing. Roy has much more favorable match-ups (almost even with Fox), just because you're clueless about a character or don't really play him doesn't mean he sucks automatically. You just regurgitate what you hear others say and your rebuttal is a bunch of "learn as you go/ Just looked it up" points about why Roy is no good. Seems to be your main strategy for any argument -> I just read it on the internet > I'm an expert already.

lol, roy gets wrecked in neutral and punished just as hard. again, think marth but with worse moves and combo food. he has a chance on FD but it's still in fox's favor there. no, i do my research until i'm satisfied that i have enough knowledge of a character. i never thought i would need a ton of knowledge on roy so i never bothered to find much information on him. if the information comes from a reliable source, then it's probably true, and if it contradicts what you say, then what you say is incorrect. it's logic.

Point is there really isn't an AmSa for Roy or anything even close currently. Neo was the closest and he hasn't played in a long time. If 2 people main Roy for every 100 people that main Marth of course you're never going to find a Ken or a PPMD of Roy. Roy is not as good as Marth, but he's where he belongs pretty much on the tier list (maybe 1-2 spots higher).

neo also played roy back in the days when the metagame wasn't nearly as developed as it was today. it's irrelevant.

And c'mon there are Roy combos just watch any video of him in any tournament, you must be blind or not know what a combo is. The Neo vs Husband vid is right there, combos for days. Many more are on YouTube you can watch, there even some Roy combo vids from actual bracket matches Ohhhh La La.

the neo vs husband match is ancient. let's be honest; if we took pewpewu and a player of equal skill with roy and had them duke it out, who do you think would win?

you're getting annoying.

also did you know that falco/fox can late dair on shield to shine to hit the opponent before their shield grab works. #basic knowledge

 

[kingPiano]

you're getting annoying.

also did you know that falco/fox can late dair on shield to shine to hit the opponent before their shield grab works. #basic knowledge

I'd rather be annoying and have my facts straight than just make stuff up and think that Pichu is above Roy on the tier list.

also did you know that Roy has a sword with huge disjointed hitboxes and Pichu doesn't #basic knowledge

 

[Comet7]

I'd rather be annoying and have my facts straight than just make stuff up and think that Pichu is above Roy on the tier list.

also did you know that Roy has a sword with huge disjointed hitboxes and Pichu doesn't #basic knowledge

nice how you didn't address anything i say. tell me, is the sky blue, or red, or both? or will you say the sky is blue, and then red, and then neither? this is actually getting a bit fun now lol. you've also pretty much said things that also apply to pichu so i don't see how pichu should be under him.

roy also doesn't have good approaches, aerials, combos, safe moves in general (actually, down tilt is okay, but even then it's limited), and nobody really cares about the ends of his disjointed moves.

 

[the muted smasher]

Pichu, s f tilt gets more disjointed the longer it lasts

 

[kingPiano]

nice how you didn't address anything i say. tell me, is the sky blue, or red, or both? or will you say the sky is blue, and then red, and then neither? this is actually getting a bit fun now lol. you've also pretty much said things that also apply to pichu so i don't see how pichu should be under him.

roy also doesn't have good approaches, aerials, combos, safe moves in general (actually, down tilt is okay, but even then it's limited), and nobody really cares about the ends of his disjointed moves.

Grab range 3 times as big as Pichu as well. Better DD and wave dash....should I go on AGAIN

Make sure you have the Wikis open; you're getting lazy now, and forgetting previous points already made.

 

[Comet7]

Grab range 3 times as big as Pichu as well. Better DD and wave dash....should I go on AGAIN

Make sure you have the Wikis open; you're getting lazy now, and forgetting previous points already made.

and since we aren't stupid we'd only use it on like a late nair on shield where we are in f tilt range and are at even or +1 frame advantage... and then f tilt comes out before a shield grab, and BAM marth get hit before the grab box comes out. it's also okay in neutral when you know that they aren't going to grab since it will clank or even slap him out before his moves come out which i tested a few days ago, as i said i would.

so i decided to do more research and saw some interesting threads in the roy boards where you were saying the exact same things, and people were also tearing apart your faulty claims there. i swear, the roy users must not know their own character, huh. also damn so classy.

 

[Kahnu]

and since we aren't stupid we'd only use it on like a late nair on shield where we are in f tilt range and are at even or +1 frame advantage... and then f tilt comes out before a shield grab, and BAM marth get hit before the grab box comes out. it's also okay in neutral when you know that they aren't going to grab since it will clank or even slap him out before his moves come out which i tested a few days ago, as i said i would.

so i decided to do more research and saw some interesting threads in the roy boards where you were saying the exact same things, and people were also tearing apart your faulty claims there. i swear, the roy users must not know their own character, huh. also damn so classy.

ROY > MARTH BECAUSE HE HAS RED HAIR

 

[kingPiano]

and since we aren't stupid we'd only use it on like a late nair on shield where we are in f tilt range and are at even or +1 frame advantage... and then f tilt comes out before a shield grab, and BAM marth get hit before the grab box comes out. it's also okay in neutral when you know that they aren't going to grab since it will clank or even slap him out before his moves come out which i tested a few days ago, as i said i would.

so i decided to do more research and saw some interesting threads in the roy boards where you were saying the exact same things, and people were also tearing apart your faulty claims there. i swear, the roy users must not know their own character, huh.

I guess you've fallen apart so now we resort to just straight up ad homenim, eh?

Should probably read deeper then. I agree with all that Link is definitely better than Roy. And then I bring up points as to why Roy isn't garbage, most agree with some of my points. I can realize that maybe all don't agree with me, but then again none of them have tried Roy in tourney, neither have you two. So I think that pretty much sums up how credible these opinions are.

I suggest you go in that same thread and say that Pichu is better than Roy. That should be fun.

ROY > MARTH BECAUSE HE HAS RED HAIR

In all honesty, Marth's hairdo is the weirdest. It's certified butch lesbo weirdness.

Roy is straight up Anime, it's only slightly less embarassing.

 

[Kahnu]

I guess you've fallen apart so now we resort to just straight up ad homenim, eh?

Should probably read deeper then. I agree with all that Link is definitely better than Roy. And then I bring up points as to why Roy isn't garbage, most agree with some of my points. I can realize that maybe all don't agree with me, but then again none of them have tried Roy in tourney, neither have you two. So I think that pretty much sums up how credible these opinions are.

but why would you McRoy when you can get the McMarth

 

[Comet7]

ROY > MARTH BECAUSE HE HAS RED HAIR

oh god i've completely lost my way. roy's hair automatically grants him the number two spot (imo pichu's anime eyes are better).

I guess you've fallen apart so now we resort to just straight up ad homenim, eh?

Should probably read deeper then. I agree with all that Link is definitely better than Roy. And then I bring up points as to why Roy isn't garbage, most agree with some of my points. I can realize that maybe all don't agree with me, but then again none of them have tried Roy in tourney, neither have you two. So I think that pretty much sums up how credible these opinions are.

I suggest you go in that same thread and say that Pichu is better than Roy. That should be fun.

you went 3 for 3 people who disagreed with you lol. i was talking about your opinion on roy but everyone there disagreed. for the link thing about anyone competent will probably think that he's better than roy.

 

[Kahnu]

In all honesty, Marth's hairdo is the weirdest. It's certified butch lesbo weirdness.

Roy is straight up Anime, it's only slightly less embarassing.

confirmed hair bias

 

[kingPiano]

oh god i've completely lost my way. roy's hair automatically grants him the number two spot (imo pichu's anime eyes are better).

you went 3 for 3 people who disagreed with you lol.

Nah almost all agreed with the D-tilt being better and the Up smash.
Undeniably the Up throw is more powerful as well, they passively agreed.

You seem to have trouble reading

 

[kingPiano]

confirmed hair bias

So you like Marth's hair better than Roy's?