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Performing aerial attack into fast fall

Zorou

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 18, 2019
Messages
4
Yo, smash ultimate is the really first game of the series iam sirously trying to get really good at. I would say that I already master many things, but when watching a pro game I always wonder, how they get theese true combos without having the enemy to dodge on your attack. I figured out that they perform a fast fall after every aerial attack, so they can followup fast. I tried like 3 Hours today, but havent really gotten any good combo at all. I still struggle performing a fast fall after my short hop aerial attack. Somehow it seems impossible to me. Iam only using the normal control stick... do you guys know any trick, maybe with die c-Stick or something, that makes perforimg this easier? I would love to get solid combos every time.

Thanks for the help and sorry for my bad english lol
 
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Predatoria

Smash Journeyman
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Jan 30, 2019
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361
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I'm not sure if this is the case for you, but it took me literally forever to realize the reason my combos weren't going through right was because hit stun gets longer the higher the knockback effect on your opponent is, meaning some combos will not start to work unless you have sufficient damage on your opponent because they can just dodge or jump or do something to break your combo.

Not sure if this helps, but figured I'd mention this was my issue for a while.

Edit: Also (And I'm not sure if this is my case yet or not sometimes), some attacks have sweet or sour spots, meaning you may need to hit with a certain part of your attack to get the desired follow-up.
 
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Zorou

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 18, 2019
Messages
4
Yeah my problem is just simply that I cant really pull off combos that are mid to high percentage. I watched many true combo videos for example for wolf and the low percent combos are pretty easy to do, but when it gets to mid/high percentage I have to perform a fast fall after my aerial attack so i can follow up with my next attack before the enemy can airdodge. And thats ghe hard thing. For me it is nearly impossible to do a Fair (clntrol stick to the right) and then do a fast fall (control stick down) and this like 2/3 times in a row ...
 

Xquirtle

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Jan 30, 2015
Messages
232
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Yeah my problem is just simply that I cant really pull off combos that are mid to high percentage. I watched many true combo videos for example for wolf and the low percent combos are pretty easy to do, but when it gets to mid/high percentage I have to perform a fast fall after my aerial attack so i can follow up with my next attack before the enemy can airdodge. And thats ghe hard thing. For me it is nearly impossible to do a Fair (clntrol stick to the right) and then do a fast fall (control stick down) and this like 2/3 times in a row ...
You want to use the C stick to input the aerial attack while doing a shff falling aerial, so like attacking on the way down. For rising shff aerial (attacking on the way up) you can input with the control and still have time to press down for fast fall. ANyway, C stick allows you to input the attack in any direction while putting the left control stick in any other direction that you like at what ever timing that you are going for. This is important for retreating aerials as well. Imo, its a good habit to get used to using the C stick for aerials in general.
 
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DelugeFGC

Smash Stick Space Cowboy
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Jan 30, 2019
Messages
737
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When using the C-Stick, also make sure it's set to Tilt Attack in control settings, as Smash stick can cause similar aerial momtentum issues to inputting aerials via L-Stick + A. That's basically the jist of why you want to C-Stick aerial in most situations, because when using C-Stick set to Tilt stick (though some characters such as Peach/Daisy CAN benefit from Smash stick imo) you're conserving momentum in the air. This allows you to use the L-Stick to gain momentum to do things such as retreating aerials, or just lightly ease into the attack to microspace. For attacks such as UAir and DAir, using the C-Stick isn't nearly as important, but it's still preferable as it leaves your control stick free. So the big reason as to why you want to use the C-Stick (set to Tilt stick, that is) is both because you want to be able to conserve aerial momentum, AND so you have a free L-Stick to use as you need.

In terms of short hops, how you do it also matters. For example, the complex buffer system in Ult allows for a TON of things, one of these being 'fusion' attacks. These are the combination of jumps, specifically short hops, with attacks. They are the result of pressing a jump input AND an attack input at the same time. This will cause an automatic short hop, and it also forces the attack to start right as your 3 frame jump squat ends. The result of this are aerial attacks that ALWAYS come out during the peak of your jump, which might not always be what you want to be doing. Manually short hopping and THEN inputting an attack allows you to attack with an aerial as you fall, which with MANY aerial attacks allows you to cancel the moves animation and negate landing lag.. though not all moves have this ability and there's typically a window of when you have to time it to do it correctly. It varies greatly from character to character.

Wrapping up, being able to follow up on attacks for combos and such is a.. very fluid situation. It's not static by any means and can be influenced by MANY factors such as SDI/ASDI, where the hitbox connected (factoring in things such as sweet/sour spots on hitboxes), the percentage they were at, ruleset things that some people may change like launch rate, the weight of the character you're fighting, the fall speed of that character.. the same things on YOUR character also matter.. there's a ton of variables in play here.

The only real thing that's gonna make it easier is practice and experience. I recommend getting a human being to sit down in training mode with you and do NOTHING but DI / Jump / Dodge as you try to see what sort of combo options and follow ups you have at certain percentages. The shuffle feature in training is basically worthless, also make VERY sure to have move staling turned on as that's one of the many other factors I mentioned. Also, some characters in Ultimate have INSANE combo potential that can basically 0-death people.. while other characters have a smaller focus on combo game and say more of a focus on neutral game. So your choice of character and what attacks you go for, along with opponent percentage + weight / fall speed & then their DI.. I'd say of the MANY variables those matter the most by far. They are by no means the only variables, however.
 
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ZephyrZ

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When using the C-Stick, also make sure it's set to Tilt Attack in control settings, as Smash stick can cause similar aerial momtentum issues to inputting aerials via L-Stick + A. That's basically the jist of why you want to C-Stick aerial in most situations, because when using C-Stick set to Tilt stick (though some characters such as Peach/Daisy CAN benefit from Smash stick imo) you're conserving momentum in the air. This allows you to use the L-Stick to gain momentum to do things such as retreating aerials, or just lightly ease into the attack to microspace. For attacks such as UAir and DAir, using the C-Stick isn't nearly as important, but it's still preferable as it leaves your control stick free. So the big reason as to why you want to use the C-Stick (set to Tilt stick, that is) is both because you want to be able to conserve aerial momentum, AND so you have a free L-Stick to use as you need.
That's how it was in Smash 4, but that's actually been fixed in Ultimate. You can now use Smash Stick without it screwing up your momentum in this game.
 

DelugeFGC

Smash Stick Space Cowboy
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That's how it was in Smash 4, but that's actually been fixed in Ultimate. You can now use Smash Stick without it screwing up your momentum in this game.
The C-Stick is still a bit screwy, even still. It's a macro for directional input + A and along with the C-Stick squelching, it can lead to some strange stuff if not familiar with how it works. Though once you're familiar with it AND the buffer system, you can do some fun things like instant RAR's which you wouldn't be able to do if the C-Stick wasn't a macro.
 

Zorou

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 18, 2019
Messages
4
First of all thanks for all answers,

One more question. If Iam training to use the c stick to do my aerials how do I do Nairs with short hop and fast fall? Because for my main wolf and yoshi nair is a pretty solid attack that leads into combos. Is it even possible to do a nair with the cstick ?
 

MalanoMan

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You just gotta practice short hopping, not moving, nairing, then move wherever you want and fast fall. It takes a lot of practice to get the hang of. Don't get discouraged if you don't get it right away. A critical component of developing muscle memory is sleeping so that your brain can create those concrete pathways which will allow you to perform your desired moves more effortlessly!

I do not believe its possible to nair with the cstick in this game.
 

DelugeFGC

Smash Stick Space Cowboy
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You can C-Stick NAir, but only because the C-Stick is a macro. It works by timing it via fusion aerial short hop attacks, so that the directional input of the C-Stick macro is effectively eaten, leaving only the A input. Thus a NAir off the C-Stick. Not something I'd say you could/should try to consistently execute in real games, but it's definitely a thing in Ult.

I use an official Gamecube controller via the adapter, and I actually have jump mapped to Z and have done so in every game since Brawl.. couldn't change controls before then though. I also map grab to Y. I VERY rarely use X to jump, though I'm perfectly capable, I've just grown so used to Z-jumping in every game except Melee which I use a partial claw grip on and obviously 64 as well, but I just have to struggle through it in 64. However, when it comes time to NAir, the likelihood of me using X to jump increases a lot.. namely because the A button is so close to the X button. If I'm trying to do a fusion / rising short hop aerial, I can simply hit X and A with the same thumb, otherwise I can slide my thumb off of X and quickly hit A. For pretty much every other situation involving jumps / aerials.. I use Z.
 
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Zorou

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 18, 2019
Messages
4
ok so I tried performing a aerial fast fall for like 1 Hour and got pretty consitent pulling that off. But what seems to be another difficult for me is: after the forst successfull aerial attack into fast fall I have to walk to the left/right to continue hitting the enemy. Its really difficult for me to swap the controlstick between down and left/right but Ill guess I just have to practise more and some time I will get the hang of it :). Thanks for the tips guys!
 

MalanoMan

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Yah im sorry. MNaumov is right. You basically have to cstick in any direction and jump at the same in order to do a cstick short hop nair. In that case though, your nair comes out right away, and may not be beneficial for the combos.

Also when you land, you gotta make sure that you dont press left or right too quickly. If you try to input a dash before your landing lag ends you character wont move.
 

odt

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 4, 2019
Messages
5
When using the C-Stick, also make sure it's set to Tilt Attack in control settings, as Smash stick can cause similar aerial momtentum issues to inputting aerials via L-Stick + A. That's basically the jist of why you want to C-Stick aerial in most situations, because when using C-Stick set to Tilt stick (though some characters such as Peach/Daisy CAN benefit from Smash stick imo) you're conserving momentum in the air. This allows you to use the L-Stick to gain momentum to do things such as retreating aerials, or just lightly ease into the attack to microspace. For attacks such as UAir and DAir, using the C-Stick isn't nearly as important, but it's still preferable as it leaves your control stick free. So the big reason as to why you want to use the C-Stick (set to Tilt stick, that is) is both because you want to be able to conserve aerial momentum, AND so you have a free L-Stick to use as you need.

In terms of short hops, how you do it also matters. For example, the complex buffer system in Ult allows for a TON of things, one of these being 'fusion' attacks. These are the combination of jumps, specifically short hops, with attacks. They are the result of pressing a jump input AND an attack input at the same time. This will cause an automatic short hop, and it also forces the attack to start right as your 3 frame jump squat ends. The result of this are aerial attacks that ALWAYS come out during the peak of your jump, which might not always be what you want to be doing. Manually short hopping and THEN inputting an attack allows you to attack with an aerial as you fall, which with MANY aerial attacks allows you to cancel the moves animation and negate landing lag.. though not all moves have this ability and there's typically a window of when you have to time it to do it correctly. It varies greatly from character to character.

Wrapping up, being able to follow up on attacks for combos and such is a.. very fluid situation. It's not static by any means and can be influenced by MANY factors such as SDI/ASDI, where the hitbox connected (factoring in things such as sweet/sour spots on hitboxes), the percentage they were at, ruleset things that some people may change like launch rate, the weight of the character you're fighting, the fall speed of that character.. the same things on YOUR character also matter.. there's a ton of variables in play here.

The only real thing that's gonna make it easier is practice and experience. I recommend getting a human being to sit down in training mode with you and do NOTHING but DI / Jump / Dodge as you try to see what sort of combo options and follow ups you have at certain percentages. The shuffle feature in training is basically worthless, also make VERY sure to have move staling turned on as that's one of the many other factors I mentioned. Also, some characters in Ultimate have INSANE combo potential that can basically 0-death people.. while other characters have a smaller focus on combo game and say more of a focus on neutral game. So your choice of character and what attacks you go for, along with opponent percentage + weight / fall speed & then their DI.. I'd say of the MANY variables those matter the most by far. They are by no means the only variables, however.
Why do peach/daisy benefit more from smash stick in your opinion?
 

DelugeFGC

Smash Stick Space Cowboy
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I'm not an expert on the Peach/Daisy meta, but if I had to guess I'd say it has something to do with float mechanics. I've seen a lot of Peach / Daisy players push this, but I'm not going to say it's 100%. I've simply heard they can benefit from Smash Stick more than other characters, but the specific reasons as to why and such I can't comment on as those are two characters I probably have played the least out of the entire roster.
 
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