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Perfect Control - AR video - FINISHED!!

SuperDoodleMan

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 4, 2003
Messages
792
EDIT: Omnigamer is in charge now (see page 6 & 7)

EDIT: See pages 11 or later for links, or search on DC++

Some of you may be familiar with ross' shinelink video, in which he, as Fox, waveshines Link all over FD. He took sequential frames using AR and strung them together into a more realistic timetable, so it looks as if it happens at game speed.

I want to do this, only with every impossible trick out there. Float cancelled n-airs 4 times a second, Fox's SHDB with shines, Dr. Mario's upB cancel, Samus S(D)WD, EVERYTHING.

The main problem is, it's a pain in the ***. MAJORly. I spent about 2 hours converting the SDWD from Omni's video to real time, a piddly 2 second clip. I have since realized that it is not very hard (just tedious) if each frame of play is easily seperable.

Any ideas will be welcomed, if they're sufficiently cool.

Please discuss with me if you want to help, because I have a vague idea how I want each of these to look, plus some of them probably need explanations. Afew things I'm certain of:

NO percentages or offscreen bubbles. Turn these off with X + dpad down

YES frame number display (Y +dpad down) for ease of recording and also of frame editing

HIGH quality capture. Quality can only get worse from each transition

SOUND isn't necessary. I would consider it a waste of time to put in sound, but if you want to, go ahead (as long as it doesn't end up sounding terrible).

WHEN EDITING make it as close to real time as possible. My frame lists are available for download and please remember that mpgs and wmvs at the quality this will be uses 30 frames a second instead of 60, so every other frame will have to be cut. If it doesn't work out somehow, refer to the lists for how it should be.

I drew the line and finally made a preview that won't be updated anymore, and it's here.

Please ask if you have any questions or concerns or the like.
 

Oro

BRoomer
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I've been thinking of doing something like this for a while, choreographing a whole fight and trying to perform it frame by frame with perfect timing, speed, and control. If you help motivate me, I'll probably produce something.
 

SuperDoodleMan

Smash Ace
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Messages
792
How about you pick one of the above things, and I explain it, or you pick a character, and we discuss what things could be done by that char?
 

The Cape

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I am interested in learning the Mario SH double aerial. If you give me details I will get to work on mastering it for your video.
 

Thomas Tipman

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im kinda confused of were your getting at with this. things like shdl and perfect wd sounds like things you could do without AR and even if it wasnt frame by frame perfect the difference would probably be to small to notice. like i said im confused on what you are trying to do here so maybe you could elaborate on perfect wd.
 

Omnigamer

All the things
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When I first made the SDWD video, I thought it would be simple as long as I could take still frames directly from the line input. Then all that would have to be done is string them together with an editing program. As I soon found out, my camera does not support this function. Probably not many do. Then I figured I would try editing it via pieces of the slow frames of my recorded footage... it worked to a small extent, but it was, as SDM put it, a pain in the ***. Too much time for not much quantity.

Anyway, this post is meant to sort of go back to my original thoughts on how to do this. It's still a lot of work, but not as much as otherwise. Rather than making a tape of raw footage and sifting that into seperate clips looking for each individual frame, it would probably be easier to just let it sit at one frame in the AR, record for a second, then turn it off. Repeat for each individual frame. Then most editing programs will automatically turn each time you recorded into clips, and from there they just have to be shortened to one frame length. Is it still a pain in the ***? Definitely. Does it take less time than the other way? Probably. The only problem I can see is that the video clips themselves will run a little slow because most video formats run at 30 fps, but smash is 60. So roughly half-speed. Unless there's a certain type that runs at 60 fps (I haven't checked too much) frames will still have to be cut out from the final product if you want it to run real-time.
 

SuperDoodleMan

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Messages
792
Omnigamer:

That's an interesting idea. I think that overall, it would take about the same amount of time, because you're taking more time per frame in the capturing part to shorten the time in editing, but it's another option if nothing else. Someone could even take pictures with a camera and use those, if the camera stays absolutely still.

The Cape:

It's doing the b-air 2 frames after leaving the ground, then immediately following up with a n-air. There's a topic about it in the character specific forums. As for perfecting it for this video, read on...

Tipman:

Perfect wavedashing is one of the lesser impressive things in this, true. Probably the least. But it still is highly unlikely that someone could do it perfectly 4 times a second. The same goes for Mario's double aerial. It's not good enough to do it. It has to be done perfectly. Three times in succession.

When Suicide Fox shows the SHDB in the fox trix vid, the most he does is 6 times consecutively, in place. I want to show a fox dash hopping and firing in the opposite direction, rapidly. Not a frame wasted. I want to show two foxes on FD SHDB'ing at each other and dodging each other's shots in the process. And have two more foxes between them like some kind of crazy jump rope of lasers. Things like this can't be done perfectly without AR. That's the idea behind this video.

So...yeah. The perfect wavedashing was gonna be a filler of sorts, for some slow part of the song. Or if there's enough footage of other stuff, cut it entirely.
 

VilNess

Smash Champion
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Jul 19, 2004
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Nice idea, too bad I don´t have AR to help ya...
As for ideas, I think consecutive Poweshielding might be a cool one, like for fox-blaster.

here´s a pretty tough one: Repeative ledge-cancelled PK fires.
It´s a very tough especially if you want the fire coming out. you can do it on the edge of stages and platforms.
For the video you could select some stage with platforms and put one character in right position so you just ledge-cancel-Pk-fires and WD away so you ledge-cancel it again, since you usually have to DjC the PK fire for it to come and ledge-cancel it.

if you don´t understand i can try to explain it better.

Another trick for Ness that requires close to perfect timing is fastest possible Floorblast.
This is to jump in air and use PK-thunder. have it go a bit up before guiding it back to you as fast as possible. If you did this correctly you have blasted yourself to ground and ended up in the stunned-mode so Ness is ready to tech-roll/stand-up-attack or standup.

edit: oh btw. you can also try fastest possible foot-canceling, like jumping out of ground to instant 2ndjump to instant fastfalled dair with Ness :) and repeat...
 

Kaotical

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What about things like the Ice Climbers' infinite throw? Link's bomb recovery? Sleep-cancelling with Jigglypuff? DJC'd u-airs with Yoshi? I don't know if those are good ideas or not, but there ya go. Maybe they will get you or someone else thinking.
 

Varuna

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I would be Interested in some shuffling and shdlshines with fox

BtW: I Have MUCH patience and i can stick with things until they are done...

problem is I dont know how to do Frame by Frame Ar, I have one I just dont know How to get it to Frame By Frame. Also could you tell me all the ways to capture these things on video. Im definatly interested
 

Doraki

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Varuna, there is a FAQ somewhere about the Debug Menu that explains everything..

I have AR and I can make some vids so I can help with those shine-dshb and waveshines.

I can do some stuff without AR, like, dshb in place, but alterning directions (I know it's completely useless, but it's fun), I've a vid where I run towards the edge, shine, turn around, wavedash backwards and edgehog, that's nice, too.

Do you want a backward-waveshine dance, too ?

I can try the "amazing shuffling" too..
 

The Cape

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Originally posted by SuperDoodleMan
The Cape:

It's doing the b-air 2 frames after leaving the ground, then immediately following up with a n-air. There's a topic about it in the character specific forums. As for perfecting it for this video, read on...
As for this, I thought it was Uair to Nair, I did it ONCE in 1/4 speed. So, this is worth a test for two of them.
 

Thomas Tipman

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i dont see how doing uair to nair or bair to nar is difficult, if you can WD then you can definitly press a button on the first airborn frame. now just replace R/L with A and your set.

the shinelink vid was nice but to me that looks like the only thing that would be to difficult to reproduce normally. though maybe im wrong, but what ive read so far seems fesable with little practice.
 

the_suicide_fox

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nj
I can do SHDB and reverse SHDB perfectly. I just did it in place in the video so people can see it.

And I also thought of doing something like this with Fox and Falco, a music video with Prodigy's "Smack my B*tch up". But it would be more of a movie than some kind of cool trick video (but ar would definately be used).
 

Flarefox

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For fox, put in his sliding double shine (i think its called), where he runs and shines then slides into the opponent again and jump cancels the first shine into another then - wave dash- and repeat
:D that would be completely insane
 

SuperDoodleMan

Smash Ace
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Messages
792
Some good ideas here! I've edited the list of ideas to include them, and take out some stuff I decided wasn't super-awesome enough.

The Cape:

The u-air to n-air doesn't work. The u-air requires 1 more frame of air time, and there just isn't enough. In my version, at least, if you do a move the first frame in the air, it slightly lessens your momentum. I suspect it's the same in all versions, but I haven't tested, so I can't say for sure.

Tipman:

Performing a perfect wavedash requires 1 perfectly timed input, the L or R. Performing a single Mario double aerial requires 2 perfectly timed inputs. I want to show THREE sequential perfectly timed SH double aerials. That's 8 perfectly timed inputs (I'm not counting the control stick, since there's leeway for that).

Post-editing the list of ideas, the double aerial is now one of the least impressive things on it. But I can really only say that because I know impressive the other stuff is. After all, how hard can it be to crouch cancel a rapid A, or dodge a flare blade?

Well, when I say crouch cancel rapid A's, I mean rapid. I want Mario and Luigi to punch each other back and forth, totalling 6 punches in under a second.

And when I say Flare Blade evasions, I mean by utilizing practically useless invincibility frames. The fully charged Flare Blade only does damage for 1 frame. Falco's reflector makes him invincible for exactly 1 frame. So does Dr. Mario's upB. It just so happens, this 1 frame of invincibility occurs during the upB cancel.

Dodging the full Flare Blade with the 1 frame of invincibility is possible, even plausible, in real time. So is performing the upB cancel. But to do both in real time, is nearly impossible. That clip would then be followed by one or more Dr. Marios repeatedly upB cancelling in rapid succession. I can explain other things on the list if you want.

Doraki:

Thank you for offering to help! This video, I think, will show how sickening Fox could be if people ever become robots.

THE BLASTER SECTION
First, Falco and Fox back to back doing SHB w/ shines. Coincidentally, it takes the EXACT SAME amount of time for Fox to do a SHDB w/shine as it takes Falco to do a SHB /w shine and fastfall. They synchronously jump and blaster in their opposite directions. Since Falco's jump is so slow, this is his only appearance in the blaster section.

frame 1: reflector
frame 4: jump
frame 7: fire Fox's blaster (press B sometime to keep firing)
frame 14: fire Falco's blaster
frame 22: fastfall with Falco
frame 26: they land, in landing stun til 29, reflector again on 30

Then Fox does some SHDB.

In place:
frame 1: jump
frame 4: fire blaster (press B sometime to keep firing)
frame 23: landing stun thru 26

Dash-hopping forward:
frame 1: dash forward
frame 2: jump
frame 5: fire blaster
frame 24: landing stun thru 27

Dash hopping forward and firing backward:
frame 1: dash forward
frame 2: jump
frame 5: hold back
frame 6: fire blaster (press B etc)
frame 24: fastfall
frame 25: landing thru 28

Turning around requires 1 frame at the beginning. Mix it up! For the face changing waveshines, you can turn on frame 4 and jump on frame 7, and wavedashing has 10 frames of lag in case you didn't know. I was gonna have this seperate, but if you want to incorporate it into the funky SHDB'ing, feel free.

With multiple Foxes, it gets more complicated. Two Foxes CAN (I tested this) stand about 1/2 FD width apart and SHDB towards each other and miss. They also can double jump blaster, and have the shot go under each other (must be closer for this) and then fastfall to dodge the next shot. I don't have enough controllers to try more, but I bet it would look pretty sweet.

There's not much to the amazing shuffles. Do it fast. Fox can shuffle a n-air in 23 frames (!) but it looks cooler with dash-hops. I suppose DJC falls here as well. I'm getting bored of writing this post, I think I'll take a break.
 

VilNess

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Originally posted by Thomas Tipman
i dont see how doing uair to nair or bair to nar is difficult, if you can WD then you can definitly press a button on the first airborn frame. now just replace R/L with A and your set.

Well the hard part is to do it many times in a row. Off course it´s quite simple to succeed in it now and then but try like doing it 5 times in a row with L-cancels :crazy:
though SDM discovered that if you use Z-button for the nair it actually L-cancels the thing so yeah!
 

Varuna

BRoomer
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Wait yall are talking about doing two moves in one jump???

and does using Z for N-air work for all characters and do you have to fast fall for the z thing to work...

Did not know this stuff
 

SuperDoodleMan

Smash Ace
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Messages
792
Z can be used for L cancelling. The L cancelling window is the frame you land, or the previous 6 frames you are in the air. So, concievably, any attack that hits on frame 6 or sooner can be Z cancelled that way.
 

SuperDoodleMan

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Jun 4, 2003
Messages
792
I apologize for the double post, but I have been working on this video, and am about a quarter done. I put what I have so far on a website so people can see what I mean.

I also am keeping the schedule in the first post updated.
 

The Cape

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I recently managed to ledge hop a uair with Ganon and landing on the level. How about this for the video?
 

Rye

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Sep 22, 2004
Messages
436
How about "runaway blaster"

Where, as faclo (or fox), you run away, blaster TOWARD the opponent (thus having to perform a "turnaround laser"), begin dashing away from the opponent and repeat. I can only do 1 or 2 in a row. It's hard to get the dash in so that you actually RUN away instead of slowly hop away.

best demonstrated on FD or more creatively on Hyrule Temple

Is that too easy to do?
 

DarkRoom

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Steve, you're my hero. :p Nice work man. Those shines on Peach's castle are reDICK.

I have one idea. How about some of Falcon's shorthopped fast-fell over-b cancels done sequentially?

I'll explain in case you don't know what I'm talking about.

I discovered (on my own, i don't know if anyone else knows) that after captain jumps into the air, right when he hits the ground it is possible to "cancel" his over-b.
It looks like he just landing regularly but little flame puffs come out around him sort of. I can only do it by either full jumping or double jumping, so I'm wondering if it is possible to "shuffle" it, so to speak. "Shuff" it I guess. It seems almost impossible to "shuff" it in real-time.

If you could check that out and let me know if it's possible and anything cool about it, that would be great; like potential invincibility, lag after the over-b cancel, etc. Anything to do with the frames, you are the master of frames here on smashboards (along with Mew2King) after all.

I think the over-b cancel looks pretty badas$, so consider it!
 

SuperDoodleMan

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792
Hmmm...I never knew about that forward-B cancel. After some quick testing, I've found it's much easier on the second jump, since he tucks in his legs and lowers his center more. It doesn't have any real advantages, since it doesn't hit or give invincibility, but it does make the sound, so maybe you could fake out your opponent...but an aerial would be better.

That runaway blaster is tough enough, but I already thought of it. I called it fox shdb dashing opposite, but it amounts to the same thing (except I didn't include an opponent, just Fox jumping around).

I've captured just about everything I need. All that's left is multi-Fox blaster madness, and the same for Samus. That's gonna be mad hard to plan...

then there's the conversion to real time, and seeing if the clips can all fit. I'm gonna have a busy spring break...
 

The Cape

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SDM, I downloaded the preview video and after the DJCing with Peach, the movie's video cuts out, is it supposed to do that?
 

Rye

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Sep 22, 2004
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I was so confused by the acronyms that I had NO idea what "fox shdb dash opposite" meant...

Didn't mean to repeat something!

Another idea: there is a combo I've been working on and I can't seem to get it to work bacause of insane input. As roy, you can cancel out of your D-tilt with a wavedash (obvious).

However, fox at 0% can be hit twice by this (I belive... It works on evading and jumping computers). I would hit him twice with it and procede to alternate between these two: D-tilt and what I would describe as a shffled Uair performed just before landing. You have to avoid sweet spotting because it will send him too high/far. eventually, you can switch to D-AIR and it will juggle him long enough to smash or Utilt -> ariel finish.

I never could think of a finisher because I could never get much further than the whole "switch to D-air"

If nothing else, it's cool to see roy perform ANY sort of combo :D You COULD shorten it to be canceled D-tilts into shffld uairs in perfect sequence.

apologies in advance if this sounds stupid. Theres not enough Roy love -_-
 

Neophos

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Perfect SHFFM could be fun to se ^_^

With Samus, Short hopped, Fast falled missile. I believe you have 1 frame to fastfall for it to work =O
 

Omnigamer

All the things
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Originally posted by DarkRoom
I discovered (on my own, i don't know if anyone else knows) that after captain jumps into the air, right when he hits the ground it is possible to "cancel" his over-b.
It looks like he just landing regularly but little flame puffs come out around him sort of. I can only do it by either full jumping or double jumping, so I'm wondering if it is possible to "shuffle" it, so to speak. "Shuff" it I guess. It seems almost impossible to "shuff" it in real-time.
I think the over-b cancel looks pretty badas$, so consider it!
I made a video of that a while ago, if anybody wants to see it. It's shared in my filelist on the hub, or you can search for "Raptor Boost Cancel". It's pretty small, and it happened during an actual match, so don't expect too great of quality as far as editing ^_^
 

W.J

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SuperDoodleMan i know this will be hard, but if you could perhaps get repeated mario up b glitch, such as doing the glitch on the first stage of adventure mode (that big wall at the very left) also get doc up b cancel
 

SuperDoodleMan

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Messages
792
For the life of me, I cannot figure out how to do the up B walljump on a flat wall. I have Doc's up B cancel down pat, though.

Anyone have any info on when to walljump? FLAT walls, mind you.
 

Rye

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Sep 22, 2004
Messages
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Mario Up B walljump: I've only attempted it a few times, but it seems to be before he finishes his turnaround. I don't know **** about frames and stuff, but that's how I judged it by eye. Also, I've not been able to replicate the glitch when "sliding" up a wall. I've only been able to do it when I am the perfect distance. Of course it could be cooincidence.

Go practice on fourside and keep falling to the left and trying to wall jump between the buldings before falling to your death.
 

DarkRoom

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Originally posted by SuperDoodleMan
Hmmm...I never knew about that forward-B cancel. After some quick testing, I've found it's much easier on the second jump, since he tucks in his legs and lowers his center more. It doesn't have any real advantages, since it doesn't hit or give invincibility, but it does make the sound, so maybe you could fake out your opponent...but an aerial would be better.
I never said it was useful. :p And yes, it does seem much, much easier doing it on the second jump. Are you able to short-hop, fast-fall it? I'm pretty sure it can be done (I tried today for a couple minutes with no success), but I don't have AR.
 

SuperDoodleMan

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I gave The Cape all kinds of AR debug info, so he's on the case. While trying to do it on Fourside, I happened to do it, only I walljumped into the wall instead of away from it. I'll probably record it at some point, but I think it's a product of the weirdness of Fourside's walls more than anything else.

I was reminded of a tactic I like to use, but which hasn't worked for me: ledgehopping fireballs. Only, with 4 Marios alternating on the same ledge :0

EDIT: the final preview is made and on the same website as before.
 

The Cape

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Originally posted by SuperDoodleMan
I gave The Cape all kinds of AR debug info, so he's on the case. While trying to do it on Fourside, I happened to do it, only I walljumped into the wall instead of away from it. I'll probably record it at some point, but I think it's a product of the weirdness of Fourside's walls more than anything else.

I was reminded of a tactic I like to use, but which hasn't worked for me: ledgehopping fireballs. Only, with 4 Marios alternating on the same ledge :0

EDIT: the final preview is made and on the same website as before.
I go back to school on Sunday. I should be able to start it up this week.

Edit: SDM, whats the name of the song in the third trailer? (I still have the vid if you arre curious). I would like the song. Thanks.
 

SuperDoodleMan

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Jun 4, 2003
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All right, things are comin along. Here are some clips I've recorded, but not edited to real time yet:

CC'ed rapid A's
Fox/Falco back to back shb w/ shines
rapid edge cancels (link)
Marth perfect dashdancing->dtilt->fsmash
Zelda false u-air
FourFox blasterdance
Raptor Boost cancels
dashing SHFFMC
swd-crazy on adventure Bowser

Flare Blade evasion
-Falco
-Peach
-Dr. Mario
-DK

These aren't all the clips I have or have planned (gotta leave a few surprises) but they are a healthy chunk. Anyone half decent with an editing program is welcome to help "convert" these clips to real time. Find me on AIM or mention here and at some point I'll get onto AIM, and I can give you whichever you want to work on. I can't say for certain I'll be available all the time, since my younger brother doesn't like my file sharing slowing down his WoW/D2/CS/WC3/the next online game he'll play. During next week (14-18) he'll have school (ha!) and all kinds of stuff can happen during the day or late at night.

I also have yet to formulate the crazy Samus dance. Whatever they end up doing, I'm sure it'll be crazy. Hence the name. HEY ORO, i just read your post way up on page one. You could pick one, or brainstorm on the crazy Samus dance. Or you could do nothing, I guess.

...

MOTIVATION!!
 
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