People are still sleeping on Ness

[MG_3989]

Even with his super consistent tournament results, incredibly versatile kit with a specific use for literally almost every move, loads and loads of kill moves, great aerials especially out of shield nair, great grab game, new PSI Magnet and air dodge tech making his recovery safer than ever before (not to mention PSI magnet working like a pseudo shine and completely oppressing certain top tier characters like Snake), the changes in Ultimates physics and game mechanics benefitting him, and no glaringly bad matchups with any top or high tier characters people are STILL sleeping on Ness.

I’ve seen him mid-tier on most tier lists and even low-mid on some and I don’t get it. I know it’s early and the meta hasn’t developed yet but right now Ness is making a strong case at the top of high tier and maybe pushing for top tier. We can only go on what we have right now and Ness is putting up ridiculous results. Yeah I know he has flaws and a lot can change and of course he can drop but I don’t think Ness is going anywhere. I say let them sleep, it just makes him all that much more lethal

 

[Specs64z]

I don’t know about top tier, but Ness is certainly a high tier again. Imho, Ness would’ve stayed high tier in Smash 4 if he hadn’t been slowly nerfed over the games lifespan. Then Bayo, Cloud, and Corrin happened and... well, we all know the story.

On that note, Ness has been indirectly buffed because almost all his worst match ups were nerfed.

Also, here’s a tier list based entirely on results. Going purely by results, Ness is apparently top tier.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=THSGLOJVjNY

 

[MG_3989]

I don’t know about top tier, but Ness is certainly a high tier again. Imho, Ness would’ve stayed high tier in Smash 4 if he hadn’t been slowly nerfed over the games lifespan. Then Bayo, Cloud, and Corrin happened and... well, we all know the story.

On that note, Ness has been indirectly buffed because almost all his worst match ups were nerfed.

Also, here’s a tier list based entirely on results. Going purely by results, Ness is apparently top tier.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=THSGLOJVjNY

Yeah I don’t think he’s top tier but I think he’s solidy high tier. I actually didn’t play not follow Smash 4 so I don’t know the history of what happened with Ness except from second hand accounts

 

[Specs64z]

Yeah I don’t think he’s top tier but I think he’s solidy high tier. I actually didn’t play not follow Smash 4 so I don’t know the history of what happened with Ness except from second hand accounts

When the game first released, his down throw was actually busted because of how free follow ups were (even at high percents) and how much damage it did. They nerfed it pretty early on, so this nerf didn't really mean too much, but it still sucked for Ness.

A few small changes also hurt Ness overall by removing some of his confirms. PK fire was given more endlag, which made follow ups almost completely unviable against good opponents, and PKT was given the same treatment.

But the biggest "nerf" was the DLC characters. Cloud, Corrin, and Bayonetta all had fast, massive moves and juggles that Ness couldn't deal with at all.

 

[Toyamasmash]

no one is sleeping on him. There is a deep seeded hatred for the character because of how annoying he and his buddy are. You know it too, a majority of players won’t use him simply for how damn obnoxious he is.

 

[MG_3989]

When the game first released, his down throw was actually busted because of how free follow ups were (even at high percents) and how much damage it did. They nerfed it pretty early on, so this nerf didn't really mean too much, but it still sucked for Ness.

A few small changes also hurt Ness overall by removing some of his confirms. PK fire was given more endlag, which made follow ups almost completely unviable against good opponents, and PKT was given the same treatment.

But the biggest "nerf" was the DLC characters. Cloud, Corrin, and Bayonetta all had fast, massive moves and juggles that Ness couldn't deal with at all.

Ok that makes sense. Still putting him in low mid tier is just wrong. I know we’re gonna have to wait until Genesis and the game evolves further to truly know where he stands but I don’t think he’s dropping this game

 

[Toyamasmash]

Ok that makes sense. Still putting him in low mid tier is just wrong. I know we’re gonna have to wait until Genesis and the game evolves further to truly know where he stands but I don’t think he’s dropping this game

He’s in annoying school kid tier who spams fair and pk fire.

 

[MG_3989]

He’s in annoying school kid tier who spams fair and pk fire.

That’s not even close to how he plays at top level but your comments are irrelevant to this post

 

[Specs64z]

no one is sleeping on him. There is a deep seeded hatred for the character because of how annoying he and his buddy are. You know it too, a majority of players won’t use him simply for how damn obnoxious he is.

... and what does you being salty about PK fire have to do with Ness’s tier placement, exactly??

He’s in annoying school kid tier who spams fair and pk fire.

If you’re just here to spread your anger, then please leave. It isn’t productive.

 

[Toyamasmash]

... and what does you being salty about PK fire have to do with Ness’s tier placement, exactly??
If you’re just here to spread your anger, then please leave. It isn’t productive.

I shall leave, it’s not hate, it’s the truth, my last words to all the nessers are to enjoy your meta of pk fire plus back throw

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

If history shows us anything, there is a cycle to Ness' status in the Smash metagame.
A game is released, Ness does well because nobody knows how to deal with him and there are an abundance of new players, the metagame evolves and people adapt to the matchup, Ness falls down the tier list due to power creep and people no longer being surprised by his capabilities. In the end only a few Ness players are left standing, owing most of their success to their adaptability and creative use of Ness' PKT.

 

[MG_3989]

If history shows us anything, there is a cycle to Ness' status in the Smash metagame.
A game is released, Ness does well because nobody knows how to deal with him and there are an abundance of new players, the metagame evolves and people adapt to the matchup, Ness falls down the tier list due to power creep and people no longer being surprised by his capabilities. In the end only a few Ness players are left standing, owing most of their success to their adaptability and creative use of Ness' PKT.

It’s unfortunate that this is always the cycle. I really hope Ultimate breaks this cycle and people stick with Ness because then people can adapt other people adapting to Ness. Idk I think he has a lot more potential long term than had been realized and I hope this changes with Ultimate. He’s not some niche character he really has all the tools to be successful

I shall leave, it’s not hate, it’s the truth, my last words to all the nessers are to enjoy your meta of pk fire plus back throw

You’re wrong and you know you’re wrong and you obviously are bad at dealing with these things. I challenge you to try to play Ness to his fullest potential and then come back here and comment

 

[Renigma]

Even with his super consistent tournament results, incredibly versatile kit with a specific use for literally almost every move, loads and loads of kill moves, great aerials especially out of shield nair, great grab game, new PSI Magnet and air dodge tech making his recovery safer than ever before (not to mention PSI magnet working like a pseudo shine and completely oppressing certain top tier characters like Snake), the changes in Ultimates physics and game mechanics benefitting him, and no glaringly bad matchups with any top or high tier characters people are STILL sleeping on Ness.

I’ve seen him mid-tier on most tier lists and even low-mid on some and I don’t get it. I know it’s early and the meta hasn’t developed yet but right now Ness is making a strong case at the top of high tier and maybe pushing for top tier. We can only go on what we have right now and Ness is putting up ridiculous results. Yeah I know he has flaws and a lot can change and of course he can drop but I don’t think Ness is going anywhere. I say let them sleep, it just makes him all that much more lethal

Don’t worry I’m from the future and I can assure you he is still a dumb **** character with too many true combos you will see a lot of him soon

It’s unfortunate that this is always the cycle. I really hope Ultimate breaks this cycle and people stick with Ness because then people can adapt other people adapting to Ness. Idk I think he has a lot more potential long term than had been realized and I hope this changes with Ultimate. He’s not some niche character he really has all the tools to be successful


You’re wrong and you know you’re wrong and you obviously are bad at dealing with these things. I challenge you to try to play Ness to his fullest potential and then come back here and comment

You’re wrong. I play ness and it is way too easy getting him to elite smash. It took me 5 games and I played him more and I never lost all you need is pk fire and thunder really

 

[MG_3989]

Don’t worry I’m from the future and I can assure you he is still a dumb **** character with too many true combos you will see a lot of him soon

Just leave the boards there’s no point to come here and hate. It’s a waste of your time

 

[PhantomShab]

Gotta love it when bad players get mad because they don't know how to avoid a very telegraphed projectile.

People complained about it in Smash 4 back when Ness was seen as OP for a time. I guess Ness just isn't allowed to be good or something. lol

 

[MG_3989]

Gotta love it when bad players get mad because they don't know how to avoid a very telegraphed projectile.

People complained about it in Smash 4 back when Ness was seen as OP for a time. I guess Ness just isn't allowed to be good or something. lol

People see Ness is a “brainless” character which is so far from the truth at a high level.

He’s a completely unique character with unique movement and he’s one of the most creative characters in the game. As far as spacing and strings go especially including the mix ups with PSI Magnet you really don’t have any limits. Then you have to nail down the yo-yo edgeguard, the new up air which has a ton of different purposes and can be used in various ways, chasing with PK Thunder, recovering and using PK Thunder unpredictability, and pulling out those clutch PKT2 kills. If you string a PK Thunder up at somebody you’re juggling wrong you could be dead because you’re a sitting duck. PSI Magnet adds a whole new dimension to his combo game and strings and is a great spacing and momentum canceling tool that if you want to play Ness at a high level you have to master

There’s more of course and I don’t know why I’m even explaining myself because you don’t feel that way and people who discount Ness will discount everything I said anyway and just say “PK Fire”

I think people are frustrated fighting against him because he’s a really unique character and nobody in the game really plays like him or punishes quite like him so they’re not used to it so they just say stuff like “PK Fire’s broken” because they can pick that out of a hat and say he’s an easy character to play when it’s not even a spamable move. None of these people have actually played Ness at a high level who are saying these things. I had no idea the hate he got till I was on this website and I was just ecstatic that he ended up being high tier but for some reason a lot of people really don’t like him and like to voice that

 

[Rhus]

Imagine hating Ness because you can't short hop over the very telegraphed projectile that is PK Fire.

 

[MG_3989]

Imagine hating Ness because you can't short hop over the very telegraphed projectile that is PK Fire.

Imagine being 50% of Smash players

 

[zblaqk]

Ness is actually sick, I NEVER played him in any other smash title but I decided to pick him up as a secondary with Sheik. He just about covers every match up I dislike playing Sheik with, namely the really good Snake and Robin player in my area. The fact he is soo fun to play is a bonus.

 

[MG_3989]

Ness is actually sick, I NEVER played him in any other smash title but I decided to pick him up as a secondary with Sheik. He just about covers every match up I dislike playing Sheik with, namely the really good Snake and Robin player in my area. The fact he is soo fun to play is a bonus.

I really love playing him. I’m looking for a secondary to have in my pocket right now (haven’t needed one so far but it’s better to be prepared) that’s as fun to play as Ness and covers his ehhh matchups and I can’t find one. I’m glad you picked him up and are enjoying him!

 

[Bcinq]

I think it is funny people are sleeping on Ness even though Awestin beat Lima, Captain Zack and MVD and FOW getting 25th at G6.
He has good Top tier matchups (Pikachu, Wolf, YL) and has good matchups overall (no unwinnable MUs),yet most people still think he is a mid tier.
I do think making PK fire more reliable would be good, as if your opponent knows how to DI it is not easy to combo off it.
quick side note, Leffens tier list says Ness does not matter and cannot get Top 8 in majors.

 

[MG_3989]

I think it is funny people are sleeping on Ness even though Awestin beat Lima, Captain Zack and MVD and FOW getting 25th at G6.
He has good Top tier matchups (Pikachu, Wolf, YL) and has good matchups overall (no unwinnable MUs),yet most people still think he is a mid tier.
I do think making PK fire more reliable would be good, as if your opponent knows how to DI it is not easy to combo off it.
quick side note, Leffens tier list says Ness does not matter and cannot get Top 8 in majors.

Leffen tier list was a joke

Peoples reasons for rating Ness mid tier are entirely illogical and not based on fact or the present or even this game

 

[Rhus]

Leffen doesn't know that much about the game and comes to pretty hasty conclusions.

I mean, even as a spacie main, I can see pretty vividly that Falco was never close to being the best.

 

[Luigifan18]

Leffen doesn't know that much about the game and comes to pretty hasty conclusions.

I mean, even as a spacie main, I can see pretty vividly that Falco was never close to being the best.

Wait, are you not counting Melee in that statement?

 

[Rhus]

Wait, are you not counting Melee in that statement?

Correct, I'm referring to the tier list he made early on where Falco was the best character in the game.

 

[Luigifan18]

Correct, I'm referring to the tier list he made early on where Falco was the best character in the game.

So, then, you're referring to Ultimate, not Melee, correct? Falco actually is considered the second-best character in the latter game.

 

[Rhus]

So, then, you're referring to Ultimate, not Melee, correct? Falco actually is considered the second-best character in the latter game.

Yes, I am specifically referring to Ultimate. I know that Falco and Fox were considered 2 of the best characters in Melee.

 

[Luigifan18]

Yes, I am specifically referring to Ultimate. I know that Falco and Fox were considered 2 of the best characters in Melee.

Okay, I just wanted to get that cleared up.

 

[Bcinq]

Something i would just like to add is that awestin beat ESAM lol.

 

[player56]

Don't refer to that to things

 

[Bcinq]

Dabuz's (most recent) tier list puts Ness in mid tier. BELOW KING K ROOL AND MII BRAWLER WHAT.
now this is truly sleepin because Dabuz is a top player (leffen kinda is not at his level and leffen is leffen so...) and keep in mind this tier list was made after G6 where 3 Ness players reached top 64. (Shaky and BN got 33rd and FOW got 25th i think)
That sm4sh mark seems to hurt Ness.

 

[BlueJaySSB]

Dabuz's (most recent) tier list puts Ness in mid tier. BELOW KING K ROOL AND MII BRAWLER WHAT.
now this is truly sleepin because Dabuz is a top player (leffen kinda is not at his level and leffen is leffen so...) and keep in mind this tier list was made after G6 where 3 Ness players reached top 64. (Shaky and BN got 33rd and FOW got 25th i think)
That sm4sh mark seems to hurt Ness.

There's underrating, and then there's sleeping on. Dabuz really is SLEEPING on Ness. That is a hot take and a half.

 

[MG_3989]

There's underrating, and then there's sleeping on. Dabuz really is SLEEPING on Ness. That is a hot take and a half.

Dabuz has always hated on Ness. He’s an obvious high tier character right now and his reputation is really hurting him

 

[Specs64z]

Dabuz straight up hibernating on the PSI powerhouse.

 

[MG_3989]

Dabuz straight up hibernating on the PSI powerhouse.

I hope FOW or BestNess beat him in the next major and take him out early. That would be so satisfying

 

[Aurane]

Why should I play Ness when Lucas is playable? That's the only reason why he's irrelevant to me. :V

 

[tecmo]

Dabuz's (most recent) tier list puts Ness in mid tier. BELOW KING K ROOL AND MII BRAWLER WHAT.
now this is truly sleepin because Dabuz is a top player (leffen kinda is not at his level and leffen is leffen so...) and keep in mind this tier list was made after G6 where 3 Ness players reached top 64. (Shaky and BN got 33rd and FOW got 25th i think)
That sm4sh mark seems to hurt Ness.

Tbh he might be on the right track. Now putting him below mii brawler is pushing it but I could see ness being a upper mid tier character. He received some nice changes, but honestly how do any of the positive changes he received cover his weaknesses of disjointed hit boxes and getting camped out? IMO they really don’t, and considering the prevalence of swords in the meta, I’m not to optimistic that he’s as much of a shoe in for high tier status as the OP seems to think.

 

[MG_3989]

Tbh he might be on the right track. Now putting him below mii brawler is pushing it but I could see ness being a upper mid tier character. He received some nice changes, but honestly how do any of the positive changes he received cover his weaknesses of disjointed hit boxes and getting camped out? IMO they really don’t, and considering the prevalence of swords in the meta, I’m not to optimistic that he’s as much of a shoe in for high tier status as the OP seems to think.

The PSI Magnet changes and what it does to his movement do help with that tho. Plus he really isn’t that bad against swords and every single sword matchup is winnable

Besides results matter which everyone seems to be overlooking

 

[Bcinq]

Tbh he might be on the right track. Now putting him below mii brawler is pushing it but I could see ness being a upper mid tier character. He received some nice changes, but honestly how do any of the positive changes he received cover his weaknesses of disjointed hit boxes and getting camped out? IMO they really don’t, and considering the prevalence of swords in the meta, I’m not to optimistic that he’s as much of a shoe in for high tier status as the OP seems to think.

ness has 0 unwinnable (he still loses to like 7 characters tho) matchups and all of the sword matchups are doable. Ness also beats top tiers like Pichu, Pikachu, Wolf and YL.
He can no longer be camped out due to psi magnet stalling and the mechanical changes.
if you get thrown offstage you are dead unless you beat yo-yo, Even if you beat yo-yo ness still has amazing edgeguard aerials and PKT1.(also PK flash but it is more situational) ness has kill confirms of his up air and psi magnet (which are pretty fast, disjointed and psi magnet has a lot of uses) and a lot of combos that work up to mid percents. Ness's juggling is non commital and has early kill options like F-smash and PKT2.
Something that brings ness down is that 3 of the best ness players do not travel much (Gackt,Taranito and specially awestin) while the other 3 (Shaky, Bestness and FOW) do not travel a lot.
Ness is with his matchup chart and tools puts him somewhere in high tier, putting him anything lower than that is underrating.

 

[Specs64z]

Tbh he might be on the right track. Now putting him below mii brawler is pushing it but I could see ness being a upper mid tier character. He received some nice changes, but honestly how do any of the positive changes he received cover his weaknesses of disjointed hit boxes and getting camped out? IMO they really don’t, and considering the prevalence of swords in the meta, I’m not to optimistic that he’s as much of a shoe in for high tier status as the OP seems to think.

The buffs to all of Ness's specials actually have a significant impact on those weaknesses. PK fire is bigger and faster, so it can more readily contest other projectile characters, plus it has reduced endlag and landing lag. PSI magnet's constantly active hitbox allows it to cancel out physical projectiles when positioned correctly and it invalidates energy projectiles/explosions/ink, plus its new movement properties allow Ness to weave in and out, djc, and stall in really tricky ways that make it very difficult to properly space around Ness. He may not be a fast character, but he can mix up his movement in ways that would make most other characters greener than a mobile sprout with envy.

Add in the buffs to Ness's kill confirms, yo-yo shenanigans, PKT juggles, PKT killing off the top, his awful recovery being massively buffed with the new airdodge, having insane kill power in literally his entire kit (except jab and dtilt), and results to back it...

Putting Ness in mid-tier is borderline hilarious, the more I look into it. There's certainly a debate about whether or not he's top tier (I don't believe so, personally), but he's 100% high tier at the moment.