Dark.Pch
Smash Legend
- Joined
- May 13, 2006
- Messages
- 16,918
- Location
- Manhattan, New York
- NNID
- Dark.Pch
- 3DS FC
- 5413-0118-3799
Ok now while replying to my other thread I decided to do a lil homework along with remembering my match vs rain where we played 2 friendlie games at apex and I scratch a win off him. Both games were close though. He got game 1 and I got game 2. I realized somethings I did not know and some useful things I can do against meta. others might now know this ether. Now I know I have made some meta threads in the past. But one thing I seriously did not take into attack, is frames. and that is seriously important to know. It lets you know your options. So what I am gonna do here is go through some of meta knights attacks/options and how to deal with them. I looked at his frame data and hit boxes on some stuff.
Then looked at mines. I start laughing after words with what I found out. And meta knight is not that serious as we made him out to be. In terms of him as a character, the match up and How Us Peach players handle him.
So What I am gonna do is list some attacks of meta knight and his frames. And I will talk about what can we do to them on reaction or on shield.
Shuttle Loop
1-7 startup
5-8 invincibility frames
8-13 strong hitbox out
14-21
22-31 weak hitbox out
Ok, Now this is the move that seems to be the anti Peach match up. Stops all of all of out pressure or options..................or does it? lets take those one step at a time.
The move comes out on frame 8. Compared to alot of attacks in this game. That is not a really fast move. But he usually get hit out of our pressure cause the is in invicible when he does it. This seems to suck for use. But there is a loop hole in this move. He is not invicible at the start of the move. It kicks in on frame 5 Which means meta is open on this move for 4 frames.
But it seems that even if you pressure him with dairs to nairs, jabs and just, you still get hit. Why if he is open for 4 frames? it makes no sense right? Well Here is why meta knight gets away with this on shield. if you Dair his shield to a nair and go to a jab. meta knight can punish you before you get an jab on him. Why?
Nair
Duration: 49
Hits on Frame: 3
Strong Hitbox Duration: 3-6 (4)
Weak Hitbox Duration: 7-23 (17)
Aerial Cooldown: 26
Landing Lag: 11
Autocancels on Frame: 36
Shield Stun: 4, 3
Optimal Shield Advantage: -7
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage: 0
Look at the shield advantage. You are open for 7 frames when you land a Nair on one shield. Meta knights SL hits on frame 8. if you jab, the SL will be your jab by one frame. Meta knight has more time if you fall a lil late. You have to touch the floor in time since her move is out for a while.
If you space the nair, he can't grab you on shield. But you can get SL. There may have been times when you Jabed meta out of it from a nair. The reason is within tap jump. if you play with tap jump on, you have to let go of the shield then up-B. if you play with it off you can up-B without having to drop shield. remember to drop shield takes 7 frames. so add that with metas up-B. You can hit him before his invincibility frames comes out. Though knowing if the enemy plays with it on or off is sometimes hard to tell unless you just see him input his name in the game and edit his controls. Which in this case, this information can come in handy for you.
Now if you dair to a Jab meta went for an up-B after the jab, are you safe?
Shield Stun: 1
Optimal Shield Advadvantage: -9
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage: -2
Optimal Shield Advantage Autocanceled: -3 (-5 hard landing)
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage Autocanceled: +4, +2
If you auto cancel it well (im gonna assume most meta don't play with tap jump on) You are not safe. So it is a bad option to Dair and land infron of meta knight. Thats a free SL. This is only helps against players who play with tap jump on, remember that.
What if you fall on him with a bair?
Bair
Duration: 55
Hits on Frame: 6
Strong Hitbox Duration: 6-8 (3)
Weak Hitbox Duration: 9-19 (11)
Aerial Cooldown: 36
Landing Lag: 9
Autocancels on Frame: 20
Shield stun: 5, 2
Optimal Shield Advantage: -4 (hard hit then land)
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage: +3
Optimal Shield Advantage Autocanceled: 0 (weak hit bair -> ac landing)
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage Autocanceled: +7
This move helps. if you bair his shield with the weak part of her move. You can move at the same time as meta. So well keep this option in mind.
Last is her fair as an option.
Fair
Duration: 54
Hits on Frame: 16 (max range @ 17)
Hitbox Duration: 16-19 (4)
Aerial Cooldown: 35
Landing Lag: 22
Autocancels on Frame: 20
Shield stun: 5
Optimal Shield Advantage (assumes hitting with F17 hitbox): 0, -2
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage: +7, +5
Fair to Jab is good. meta can not shuttle loop you out a fair if you jab after. he is gonna get slapped. Now we know we have 2 save moves to use on meta if you get the shield pressure. So lets start with bair.
If you do a falling bair on his shield you can reverse jab him and you can get him out of his SL. If you fair his shield and you jab, you can stop the SL. Some might have gotten hit out of this many times before. Reason is meta knight is a small character. If you fair a lil early you are open for the jab comes out. You have not touched the floor yet for you to even auto cancel. That means you will auto cancel late and be left open. So you need to time your fair execution to be safe and can jab. So if you wondered why you Jab and got grabbed out of it many times, this is the reason.
Dair meta shield and move behind him to a bair. Meta can SL your bair by a frame since thats when the invic frames kick in. So this is a method to do if they wanna wait for you to land. if not then Dair and fall with a nair. That will punish meta knight if he tries to reverse up-B out of shield. But if he blocks the nair, shield. You don't have enough time to jab him after a air on shield. And you can not roll away in time of sidestep. When you do evasive tactics you are open for a few frames at the start.
Spot Dodge
Total: 25
Invincible Frames 2 – 20
Roll Backward
Total: 31
Invincible Frames 4 – 20
Roll Forward
Total: 31
Invincible Frames 3 – 19
You are not invincible right away and out of a nair on block, you will eat a SL or any of his quick moves out of shield. blocking takes 1 frame. That one frame can save you from a SL or any air attack out of shield. So if you corss up the shield with nair, do not roll/stide step unless you know your opponent might sidestep or drop shield to a dsmash (then you can turn around jab from nair on block.) Just block and you are safe from his counter attack.
with all this you have a better idea on how to pressure meta knight. if you get him on his shield and how to be safe.
MACH TORNADO
minimum time frame breakdown:
1-11 startup
12-58 hitbox out
59-87 cooldown (this is a grounded nado)
maximum time frame breakdown
1-11 startup
12-104 hitbox out
There is a few ways to stop this move. on the ground, hit him with a fsmash. Reasons like this you wanna be grounded alot vs him so you be able to fish and react to the tornado and stop it. In the air if you can bair from the top right/left. same with her fair. it's hard though so I not try this all the time unless you are godly with it. If you are over him you can nair him out. if you get caught in it, you can DI out of it and nair him out of the move. Turnips can clap him out if you aim for the center or top right/left.
If you wanna react to it you have to be patients and not wanna attack all the time. Cause what you do will leave you getting caught by that move. its not so bad if you get caught if you practice DI out and nairing him. Still I rather not do that when I can get harder punishes for that move.
DAIR
frame breakdown:
1-3 startup
4-5 hitbox out
6-25 aerial cooldown
frame summary:
hits on frame: 4
IASA frame: 26
Aerial cooldown: 20
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 24
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 2
Optimal shield advantage: -13
Optimal shield drop advantage: -6
Shield advantage without landing: -18
Shield drop advantage without landing: -11
You really dont wanna be in the shield when meta is Dairng you. its hard to break free, even if you roll or side step. Look at her roll and side step frames again. Meta can punish you for that out of dair pressure on shield. So if you see meta approaching with dair are are a few things you can do to not give meta the offense.
Toad- If you seriously know he is gonna do it obviously. Catch him a few times and he will think twice about going in hard with that and might try to bait toad. thus the pressure is reduced.
Fullhop dair- If meta wants to pressure shield, it will usually be with short hop dairs. if he comes at you with one, go in anf full hop dair. You will hit meta knight. he is open.
Glide toss upward>uptilt- signature combo of mine I love doing to shut down people who love to double jump of be in the air alot. Metas might dair a lil higher than usual if they thing you will try to hit them. Or create a temp wall to force you to get a turnip or catch you sleeping. Then go in with a tornado when you are open or another means to punish. if you wanna go in and try to hit him from the air, that method will stop you. So get a turnip and glide toss under meta and you get a free uptilt.
Thats all I got for now. If anything else comes to mind, I'll add it here.
Then looked at mines. I start laughing after words with what I found out. And meta knight is not that serious as we made him out to be. In terms of him as a character, the match up and How Us Peach players handle him.
So What I am gonna do is list some attacks of meta knight and his frames. And I will talk about what can we do to them on reaction or on shield.
Shuttle Loop
1-7 startup
5-8 invincibility frames
8-13 strong hitbox out
14-21
22-31 weak hitbox out
Ok, Now this is the move that seems to be the anti Peach match up. Stops all of all of out pressure or options..................or does it? lets take those one step at a time.
The move comes out on frame 8. Compared to alot of attacks in this game. That is not a really fast move. But he usually get hit out of our pressure cause the is in invicible when he does it. This seems to suck for use. But there is a loop hole in this move. He is not invicible at the start of the move. It kicks in on frame 5 Which means meta is open on this move for 4 frames.
But it seems that even if you pressure him with dairs to nairs, jabs and just, you still get hit. Why if he is open for 4 frames? it makes no sense right? Well Here is why meta knight gets away with this on shield. if you Dair his shield to a nair and go to a jab. meta knight can punish you before you get an jab on him. Why?
Nair
Duration: 49
Hits on Frame: 3
Strong Hitbox Duration: 3-6 (4)
Weak Hitbox Duration: 7-23 (17)
Aerial Cooldown: 26
Landing Lag: 11
Autocancels on Frame: 36
Shield Stun: 4, 3
Optimal Shield Advantage: -7
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage: 0
Look at the shield advantage. You are open for 7 frames when you land a Nair on one shield. Meta knights SL hits on frame 8. if you jab, the SL will be your jab by one frame. Meta knight has more time if you fall a lil late. You have to touch the floor in time since her move is out for a while.
If you space the nair, he can't grab you on shield. But you can get SL. There may have been times when you Jabed meta out of it from a nair. The reason is within tap jump. if you play with tap jump on, you have to let go of the shield then up-B. if you play with it off you can up-B without having to drop shield. remember to drop shield takes 7 frames. so add that with metas up-B. You can hit him before his invincibility frames comes out. Though knowing if the enemy plays with it on or off is sometimes hard to tell unless you just see him input his name in the game and edit his controls. Which in this case, this information can come in handy for you.
Now if you dair to a Jab meta went for an up-B after the jab, are you safe?
Shield Stun: 1
Optimal Shield Advadvantage: -9
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage: -2
Optimal Shield Advantage Autocanceled: -3 (-5 hard landing)
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage Autocanceled: +4, +2
If you auto cancel it well (im gonna assume most meta don't play with tap jump on) You are not safe. So it is a bad option to Dair and land infron of meta knight. Thats a free SL. This is only helps against players who play with tap jump on, remember that.
What if you fall on him with a bair?
Bair
Duration: 55
Hits on Frame: 6
Strong Hitbox Duration: 6-8 (3)
Weak Hitbox Duration: 9-19 (11)
Aerial Cooldown: 36
Landing Lag: 9
Autocancels on Frame: 20
Shield stun: 5, 2
Optimal Shield Advantage: -4 (hard hit then land)
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage: +3
Optimal Shield Advantage Autocanceled: 0 (weak hit bair -> ac landing)
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage Autocanceled: +7
This move helps. if you bair his shield with the weak part of her move. You can move at the same time as meta. So well keep this option in mind.
Last is her fair as an option.
Fair
Duration: 54
Hits on Frame: 16 (max range @ 17)
Hitbox Duration: 16-19 (4)
Aerial Cooldown: 35
Landing Lag: 22
Autocancels on Frame: 20
Shield stun: 5
Optimal Shield Advantage (assumes hitting with F17 hitbox): 0, -2
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage: +7, +5
Fair to Jab is good. meta can not shuttle loop you out a fair if you jab after. he is gonna get slapped. Now we know we have 2 save moves to use on meta if you get the shield pressure. So lets start with bair.
If you do a falling bair on his shield you can reverse jab him and you can get him out of his SL. If you fair his shield and you jab, you can stop the SL. Some might have gotten hit out of this many times before. Reason is meta knight is a small character. If you fair a lil early you are open for the jab comes out. You have not touched the floor yet for you to even auto cancel. That means you will auto cancel late and be left open. So you need to time your fair execution to be safe and can jab. So if you wondered why you Jab and got grabbed out of it many times, this is the reason.
Dair meta shield and move behind him to a bair. Meta can SL your bair by a frame since thats when the invic frames kick in. So this is a method to do if they wanna wait for you to land. if not then Dair and fall with a nair. That will punish meta knight if he tries to reverse up-B out of shield. But if he blocks the nair, shield. You don't have enough time to jab him after a air on shield. And you can not roll away in time of sidestep. When you do evasive tactics you are open for a few frames at the start.
Spot Dodge
Total: 25
Invincible Frames 2 – 20
Roll Backward
Total: 31
Invincible Frames 4 – 20
Roll Forward
Total: 31
Invincible Frames 3 – 19
You are not invincible right away and out of a nair on block, you will eat a SL or any of his quick moves out of shield. blocking takes 1 frame. That one frame can save you from a SL or any air attack out of shield. So if you corss up the shield with nair, do not roll/stide step unless you know your opponent might sidestep or drop shield to a dsmash (then you can turn around jab from nair on block.) Just block and you are safe from his counter attack.
with all this you have a better idea on how to pressure meta knight. if you get him on his shield and how to be safe.
MACH TORNADO
minimum time frame breakdown:
1-11 startup
12-58 hitbox out
59-87 cooldown (this is a grounded nado)
maximum time frame breakdown
1-11 startup
12-104 hitbox out
There is a few ways to stop this move. on the ground, hit him with a fsmash. Reasons like this you wanna be grounded alot vs him so you be able to fish and react to the tornado and stop it. In the air if you can bair from the top right/left. same with her fair. it's hard though so I not try this all the time unless you are godly with it. If you are over him you can nair him out. if you get caught in it, you can DI out of it and nair him out of the move. Turnips can clap him out if you aim for the center or top right/left.
If you wanna react to it you have to be patients and not wanna attack all the time. Cause what you do will leave you getting caught by that move. its not so bad if you get caught if you practice DI out and nairing him. Still I rather not do that when I can get harder punishes for that move.
DAIR
frame breakdown:
1-3 startup
4-5 hitbox out
6-25 aerial cooldown
frame summary:
hits on frame: 4
IASA frame: 26
Aerial cooldown: 20
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 24
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 2
Optimal shield advantage: -13
Optimal shield drop advantage: -6
Shield advantage without landing: -18
Shield drop advantage without landing: -11
You really dont wanna be in the shield when meta is Dairng you. its hard to break free, even if you roll or side step. Look at her roll and side step frames again. Meta can punish you for that out of dair pressure on shield. So if you see meta approaching with dair are are a few things you can do to not give meta the offense.
Toad- If you seriously know he is gonna do it obviously. Catch him a few times and he will think twice about going in hard with that and might try to bait toad. thus the pressure is reduced.
Fullhop dair- If meta wants to pressure shield, it will usually be with short hop dairs. if he comes at you with one, go in anf full hop dair. You will hit meta knight. he is open.
Glide toss upward>uptilt- signature combo of mine I love doing to shut down people who love to double jump of be in the air alot. Metas might dair a lil higher than usual if they thing you will try to hit them. Or create a temp wall to force you to get a turnip or catch you sleeping. Then go in with a tornado when you are open or another means to punish. if you wanna go in and try to hit him from the air, that method will stop you. So get a turnip and glide toss under meta and you get a free uptilt.
Thats all I got for now. If anything else comes to mind, I'll add it here.
