Veril
Frame Savant
I stopped playing Brawl (for the most part) and went back to melee Peach. Mostly this is due to the booty pop.
Anyway, I've been doing testing every now and then with her and thought I would share since the hitbox/frame data thread needs moar science and eye melting walls of text. Expect a lot of random crap like
Any turnip or item pull can follow any previous pull. So two stitch faces in a row is completely possible, though highly unlikely.
Ratio of % to knockback decreases from top to bottom (other then the fixed tumble % moves) and left to right. Since I don't have the actual bkb and kbg values this isn't exact, but it's a good representation of relative knockback and thus hitstun relative to weight.
Tumble requires 31+frames of hitstun. hitstun is derived from knockback, so really I'm measuring when moves produce a certain amount of knockback.
Note: The tumble state has certain defining characteristics.
• During tumble, a character colliding with the ground must bounce or tech. Prior to tumble characters will land on their feet.
• The character is in hitstun for at least 31 frames.
• Moves that hit directly upwards will not launch a grounded until they induce tumble. Ex. Mr. Saturn
•*Characters in tumble cannot airdodge.
•• though it doesn't specify in this chart, the % listed are those PRIOR to hit and unstale.
Significant character and % dependent launch effects.
When does a given move have an advantage on hit vs ___ character:
--fresh or stale
--with or without crouch canceling
--based on DI and teching or lack thereof
When will a move kill ____ character:
--fresh or stale
--with or without crouch canceling
--with or without DI
--From the center or sides of FD
--From the center and sides of Battlefield as well as on the side and top platforms
--ditto that for Yoshi's, FOD, all but Pokemon Stadium. F that noise
When will a move launch/induce tumble/force techs/allow for a given followup? How much damage do moves different hitboxes deal? What are their trajectories? What will a phantom hit deal? How can one space to achieve a phantom hit?
*FYI: I use the term hitbox to refer to a portion of a move with a given damage, trajectory, etc. Hitbubbles make up a hitbox, and share the same properties. For example: Peach's up-smash has a weak hitbox which contains 2 hitbubbles on either side of her.
single move KO% list:
Character (Move Name, hitbubble/box description, stage, location on stage) Fresh, no DI - Stale, no DI - Fresh, with DI - Fresh, Crouch Canceled, no DI
*s=off the side, *t=off the top
Bowser
Jabs: Theory-Fox/Falco can shine in between jab 1 and 2 when CCing at any %. I should check the % the second jab launches, and other character CC punishes. Against a wall its possible to continually jab characters at mid % (gotta test), though they should be able to SDI out. The first jab will combo into the second on all airborne characters and grounded characters except Fox. Why fox? Cause he's a *****.
Jab 1
•"reset" limits these characters to the "stand" action: Bowser, DK, Samus, Yoshi, Ganon, CF, Link, Mari/Luigi/Doc, Ness, Zelda/Sheik, Peach, ICs, Marth, MewTwo, Roy, and Young Link. Characters not listed still have the full set of getup options.
•Damage and Knockback: 1.65-3%; weight dependent bkb, no growth.
Jab 2
•Damage: 1.1-2%, low growth. Induces tumble at high%.
Down-tilt: 6.6-12% damage with all hitboxes. The spike (elbow) and non-spike (hand) hitboxesseem to have the same effects on a grounded opponent. The non-spike hitbox has a different angle when used on a grounded vs. airborne opponent. Against a grounded opponent the trajectory is 90°, against an airborne opponent it is ~70°.
Fresh d-tilt is impossible to punish by crouch canceling. Even before it starts inducing tumble, it has advantage on hit when CCed. Aerial to d-tilt is in no way a shield combo, though (following a FC aerial) it can safely pressure characters that have poor OOS options (BAD characters), ie substantial startup lag on jump/usmash/upb/grab.
Combos with the d-tilt: forgive me for not testing with DI... or don't. >.>
vs Fox: 0-20% d-tilt to jab/d-smash: depending on the timing you can get different results obv. Doing it as early as possible will hit them just before they land, which means they'll have a few additional lag frames and you should be able to get a grab in. If you've conditioned them to expect d-smash cheese they may reflexively be attempting SDI upwards, in which case just grab or dash attack and lol. If you wait a little longer for the jab I believe it can lead to a reset (I did the testing really late at night so my notes got kinda sloppy). Either way, follow up with ****. Or d-smash.
from roughly 20%-74% you can grab, f-tilt or uptilt. Somewhere in this range repeated d-tilts are possible. FC up-air works as well, but I didn't check the exact % where FCing up-air is best. Mix as desired. Yum!
from 75%-87 up-tilt can reliably followup but f-tilt and grab don't. Up-air can work, but if they didn't DI, why not use the up-tilt instead and keep the up-air fresh?
from 85-106% you can combo into the tipper hitbox of a charged up-smash and potentially land a KO! HAWT! Within this range it WILL kill without DI on FD, at 100+ iirc it will kill regardless of DI (on the up-smash). Pretty awesome, no? Charge it such that you hit fox as early as possible with the tip and it's a true combo.
from 105%-140% you can FH up-air for the KO on FD without DI. Again, the upper range of this % will likely kill with DI.
Up-Tilt:
[COLLAPSE="Up-Tilt Hitboxes"]
[/Collapse]
Dash Attack: MMmmmmmm
Neutral Aerial: The hitbox data thread only lists info for 2 hitboxes which is sad cause I've noted 3. There's the strong hitbox which is just the initial part of the move, that deals 7.7-14%. Then there are 2 weak hitboxes, a back/booty hitbox (4.95-9%, 1 hitbubble) and one for her hands (5.5-10%, 2 hitbubbles).
Up Aerial is pretty freakin sweet. Its got three different hitboxes: the strongest one hits more or less vertically and does 7.7-14%, the middle hitbox does 6.5-12% and has a slightly more horizontal trajectory, then there's a 6.05-11% hitbox which hits at a 45ish angle if your opponent happens to stick their face up just barely into peach's nether regions... REJECTED! I want to be able to consistently land that but haven't figured out a way yet and its really character dependent (how easily you can land that hit). The middle hitbox is really massively inferior as a KO move compared to the strong one, but it allows for comboing at higher % than the stronger hit. They are pretty similar at low %, but the middle hitbox has craptastic knockback growth compared to the strong hit, so their differences become much more apparent at high %.
Down-Smash:
The equalizer. Pivot d-smash, dash cancel d-smash, DJ-land d-smash, vertical launcher -> dsmash, tech chase d-smash, wavedash OOS d-smash, d-smash the shield, FC fair/nair -> dsmash the shield, d-smash people recovering low, SDI out of d-air shine combos and d-smash, crouch cancel any approach by Mario and d-smash,... just don't d-smash Jiggs.
[COLLAPSE="Magus CG data"]
[/COLLAPSE]
Out of shield options frame data stuff I need to organize... if they don't get pushed off the edge... if they do then none of this matters and you should just look at aerial startups and stuff. I think its more useful to look at the vulnerable frames with a defensive maneuver. This includes grabs since they give you a form of invincibility sorta. vf=vulnerable frames before invincibility/hitbox. I'm not gonna bother listing OOS options that have more than 14 vulnerable frames.
Jump start: the number of frames between the input (frame 0) and the first frame a character is actually in the air. Pretty important for figuring out JC options OOS, aerials OOS, etc.
Fox, ICs, Pichu, Pikachu, Sheik, Samus, Kirby: 3
CF, Doc, Mario, Luigi, Ness, GW, Marth, Young Link: 4
Peach!, Yoshi, DK, Falco, Jiggs, M2, Roy: 5
Ganon, Zelda, Link: 6
Bowser: 8 ew
Vulnerable frames prior to invincibility from a roll:
Jiggs: 1; Yoshi: None! Yoshi's entire roll duration is invincible; Everyone Else: 3
Vulnerable frames prior to invincibility from a spotdodge:
Bowser: 3; Zelda and CF: 2; Everyone else: 1
Vulnerable frames prior to a shield-grab:
Samus and Yoshi: 17; Zelda: 11; Link and Young Link: 10; Bowser: 8; DK, Ness: 7
Everyone else: 6
Bowser OOS: spotdodge or roll (vf=3), grab (vf=8+), up-b OOS (amazing). All his other options are baaaad.
Captain Falcon OOS: spotdodge (vf=2), roll (vf=3), grab (vf=6+), uair (vf=9+), nair (vf=10+).
Donkey Kong: spotdodge (vf=1), roll (vf=3), grab (vf=7+), uair (vf=10+), bair (vf=11+), up-smash (vf=13+), nair (vf=14+).
Many thanks to:
Strong Bad for clarifications on move staling and nair hitbox timing.
KirbyKaze... stuff
Magus for the Shieldstun and Hitlag formula, up-throw CG info, and Down-B percentages.
Seanson for his hitbox program
Stratocaster for the hitbox gifs
Superdoodleman for frame data
Sveet for showing me the d-smash phantom hits vs. the sandbag ;p
VaNz for being Vanz
Anyway, I've been doing testing every now and then with her and thought I would share since the hitbox/frame data thread needs moar science and eye melting walls of text. Expect a lot of random crap like
Any turnip or item pull can follow any previous pull. So two stitch faces in a row is completely possible, though highly unlikely.
Turnip damage and modifiers:
•base damage is the minimum you'll get with a normal throw
••Regular Turnip: 6
••"Wink": 10
••"Dot aka Theodore": 16
••"Stitch": 34
•Horizontal distance and velocity based bonuses.
••Mid-range bonus: 1 OR Long-range bonus: 2
••Dash tossing (ground only) bonus: 1.5 OR Smash tossing (ground only) bonus: 2
•Falling (dropped or up/down tossed) turnips do between 1 and base+1 damage.
••Aerial down toss results in base+1 damage without the turnip needing to accelerate.
••z-dropped turnips do not apply damage bonus for rare turnips.
•Aerial and Grounded Up Toss increase damage initially, but it decreases as the turnip loses speed.
••Lower platform height on Yoshi's: +1 damage
••Top platform height on Yoshi's: base damage
••Any higher causes the damage to decrease.
••If the turnip starts coming down, it follows the same rules as dropped turnips but doesn't cause turnip type to revert to normal, unlike z dropping.
Bonuses can stack:
example1 - Up Smash Tossed "Dot" Turnip hitting an opponent close to you.
•does a base of 16 damage; +1 for being thrown up and the opponent being close; +2 for being smash thrown.
•19 damage in total.
example2 - F Smash Tossed Regular Turnip thrown from onstage hitting an opponent who is very close to the blast zone.
•6 (base damage) + 2 (smash tossed) + 2 (long-range horizontally) = 10 damage
Ratio of % to knockback decreases from top to bottom (other then the fixed tumble % moves) and left to right. Since I don't have the actual bkb and kbg values this isn't exact, but it's a good representation of relative knockback and thus hitstun relative to weight.
Tumble requires 31+frames of hitstun. hitstun is derived from knockback, so really I'm measuring when moves produce a certain amount of knockback.

Note: The tumble state has certain defining characteristics.
• During tumble, a character colliding with the ground must bounce or tech. Prior to tumble characters will land on their feet.
• The character is in hitstun for at least 31 frames.
• Moves that hit directly upwards will not launch a grounded until they induce tumble. Ex. Mr. Saturn
•*Characters in tumble cannot airdodge.
•• though it doesn't specify in this chart, the % listed are those PRIOR to hit and unstale.
Significant character and % dependent launch effects.
When does a given move have an advantage on hit vs ___ character:
--fresh or stale
--with or without crouch canceling
--based on DI and teching or lack thereof
When will a move kill ____ character:
--fresh or stale
--with or without crouch canceling
--with or without DI
--From the center or sides of FD
--From the center and sides of Battlefield as well as on the side and top platforms
--ditto that for Yoshi's, FOD, all but Pokemon Stadium. F that noise
When will a move launch/induce tumble/force techs/allow for a given followup? How much damage do moves different hitboxes deal? What are their trajectories? What will a phantom hit deal? How can one space to achieve a phantom hit?
*FYI: I use the term hitbox to refer to a portion of a move with a given damage, trajectory, etc. Hitbubbles make up a hitbox, and share the same properties. For example: Peach's up-smash has a weak hitbox which contains 2 hitbubbles on either side of her.
single move KO% list:
Character (Move Name, hitbubble/box description, stage, location on stage) Fresh, no DI - Stale, no DI - Fresh, with DI - Fresh, Crouch Canceled, no DI
*s=off the side, *t=off the top
Bowser
(Up Aerial, Strong Hitbox, FD, Center) 137 - 143 - 149 - 223
Captain Falcon(Up Aerial, Strong Hitbox, FD, Center) 149 - 154 - 160 - ?
Doctor Mario(Up Aerial, Strong Hitbox, FD, Center) 121 - ? - ?
(Forward Throw, FD, Center) ? - ? - 149 - NA
(Forward Throw, FD, Side) ? - ? - 134 - NA
Donkey Kong(Forward Throw, FD, Center) ? - ? - 149 - NA
(Forward Throw, FD, Side) ? - ? - 134 - NA
(Up Aerial, Strong Hitbox, FD, Center) 143 - ? - 154 - ?
Falco(Up Aerial, Strong Hitbox, FD, Center) 134 - ? - 144s, 147t
Fox(Up Aerial, Strong Hitbox, FD, Center)126 - ? - 138s
(d-tilt, FD, Center) 180 - ? - ?
Ganon(d-tilt, FD, Center) 180 - ? - ?
(Up Aerial, Strong Hitbox, FD, Center) 133 - ? - ? - ?
Jigglypuff(Dash Attack, Strong Hitbox, FD, Center) 116 - ? - ? - ?
(Forward Tilt, Strong 13% Hitbox, FD, Center) 113 - ? - ? - ?
(Forward Tilt, Mid 11% Hitbox, FD, Center) 136 - ? - ? - ?
(Forward Tilt, Weak 10% Hitbox, FD, Center) 149 - ? - ? - ?
(Down Tilt, FD, Center) 119 - ? - 125 - 217
(Up-smash uncharged, weak Hitbox, FD, Center) 159 - ? - ? - ?
(Up-smash fully charged, weak Hitbox, FD, Center) 129 - ? - ? - ?
(Up Aerial, Strong Hitbox, FD, Center) 88 bwahahaa - ? - ? - ?
Marth(Forward Tilt, Strong 13% Hitbox, FD, Center) 113 - ? - ? - ?
(Forward Tilt, Mid 11% Hitbox, FD, Center) 136 - ? - ? - ?
(Forward Tilt, Weak 10% Hitbox, FD, Center) 149 - ? - ? - ?
(Down Tilt, FD, Center) 119 - ? - 125 - 217
(Up-smash uncharged, weak Hitbox, FD, Center) 159 - ? - ? - ?
(Up-smash fully charged, weak Hitbox, FD, Center) 129 - ? - ? - ?
(Up Aerial, Strong Hitbox, FD, Center) 88 bwahahaa - ? - ? - ?
(Up Aerial, Strong Hitbox, FD, Center) 119 - ? - ? - ?
Sheik(Up Aerial, Strong Hitbox, FD, Center) 122 - ? - ? - ?
Jabs: Theory-Fox/Falco can shine in between jab 1 and 2 when CCing at any %. I should check the % the second jab launches, and other character CC punishes. Against a wall its possible to continually jab characters at mid % (gotta test), though they should be able to SDI out. The first jab will combo into the second on all airborne characters and grounded characters except Fox. Why fox? Cause he's a *****.
Jab 1
•"reset" limits these characters to the "stand" action: Bowser, DK, Samus, Yoshi, Ganon, CF, Link, Mari/Luigi/Doc, Ness, Zelda/Sheik, Peach, ICs, Marth, MewTwo, Roy, and Young Link. Characters not listed still have the full set of getup options.
•Damage and Knockback: 1.65-3%; weight dependent bkb, no growth.
Jab 2
•Damage: 1.1-2%, low growth. Induces tumble at high%.
The first jab will not combo into the second jab if it is CCed, though further testing is needed to determine punishing options other than shine. It is also worth noting that the jab hitboxes are disjointed enough that many punishing options will at worst clash with the jab.1st jab is always strong enough to givea FFer[characters of Falco's weight or lower] their full reset repertoire (roll both directions, rise, and rising attack).
For this reason, you can't "reset" in the same way that Jigglypuff can. They're never forced into a "rise only" situation after jab; they always have the other options available. Consequently, at low percents, I think it's better to just down smash again or FC Nair > see what they do > react accordingly (since FC Nair > block often beats rising attack, and can sometimes still let you chase rolls). That said, jab resets are sexy so if you use them instead of a convoluted thing (esp. at mid percent when they might procure you a good grab) then nobody will judge. Just don't anticipate a simple rise and prepare for the unexpected.
Down-tilt: 6.6-12% damage with all hitboxes. The spike (elbow) and non-spike (hand) hitboxes
Fresh d-tilt is impossible to punish by crouch canceling. Even before it starts inducing tumble, it has advantage on hit when CCed. Aerial to d-tilt is in no way a shield combo, though (following a FC aerial) it can safely pressure characters that have poor OOS options (BAD characters), ie substantial startup lag on jump/usmash/upb/grab.
Combos with the d-tilt: forgive me for not testing with DI... or don't. >.>
vs Fox: 0-20% d-tilt to jab/d-smash: depending on the timing you can get different results obv. Doing it as early as possible will hit them just before they land, which means they'll have a few additional lag frames and you should be able to get a grab in. If you've conditioned them to expect d-smash cheese they may reflexively be attempting SDI upwards, in which case just grab or dash attack and lol. If you wait a little longer for the jab I believe it can lead to a reset (I did the testing really late at night so my notes got kinda sloppy). Either way, follow up with ****. Or d-smash.
from roughly 20%-74% you can grab, f-tilt or uptilt. Somewhere in this range repeated d-tilts are possible. FC up-air works as well, but I didn't check the exact % where FCing up-air is best. Mix as desired. Yum!
from 75%-87 up-tilt can reliably followup but f-tilt and grab don't. Up-air can work, but if they didn't DI, why not use the up-tilt instead and keep the up-air fresh?
from 85-106% you can combo into the tipper hitbox of a charged up-smash and potentially land a KO! HAWT! Within this range it WILL kill without DI on FD, at 100+ iirc it will kill regardless of DI (on the up-smash). Pretty awesome, no? Charge it such that you hit fox as early as possible with the tip and it's a true combo.
from 105%-140% you can FH up-air for the KO on FD without DI. Again, the upper range of this % will likely kill with DI.
Up-Tilt:
Because of its invincibility frames, up-tilt will beat Fox's FH dair. Thank you, magic weave.Gotta protect that weave

[COLLAPSE="Up-Tilt Hitboxes"]

Dash Attack: MMmmmmmm
The lowest percents at which the strong hit of Peach's unstaled dash attack can be CC'ed are as follows.
Doc/Mario/Luigi: 42%
Bowser: 47%
Peach: 39%
Yoshi: 44%
DK: 46%
Captain Falcon: 43%
Ganondorf: 44%
Falco: 37%
Fox: 35%
Ness: 40%
Ice Climbers: 39%
Kirby: Crouches too low
Samus: 45%
Zelda/Sheik: 39%
Link: 43%
Young Link: 38%
Pichu: 30%
Pikachu: 37%
Jigglypuff: Crouches too low
Mewtwo: 38%
Mr. Game and Watch: Crouches too low
Roy/Marth: 38%
Neutral Aerial: The hitbox data thread only lists info for 2 hitboxes which is sad cause I've noted 3. There's the strong hitbox which is just the initial part of the move, that deals 7.7-14%. Then there are 2 weak hitboxes, a back/booty hitbox (4.95-9%, 1 hitbubble) and one for her hands (5.5-10%, 2 hitbubbles).
frame 3 through 7 (or 8, i don't remember) the hitboxes all do 14. past that, [Peach's hands] do 10 and the other one does 9.
Up Aerial is pretty freakin sweet. Its got three different hitboxes: the strongest one hits more or less vertically and does 7.7-14%, the middle hitbox does 6.5-12% and has a slightly more horizontal trajectory, then there's a 6.05-11% hitbox which hits at a 45ish angle if your opponent happens to stick their face up just barely into peach's nether regions... REJECTED! I want to be able to consistently land that but haven't figured out a way yet and its really character dependent (how easily you can land that hit). The middle hitbox is really massively inferior as a KO move compared to the strong one, but it allows for comboing at higher % than the stronger hit. They are pretty similar at low %, but the middle hitbox has craptastic knockback growth compared to the strong hit, so their differences become much more apparent at high %.
Down-Smash:

The equalizer. Pivot d-smash, dash cancel d-smash, DJ-land d-smash, vertical launcher -> dsmash, tech chase d-smash, wavedash OOS d-smash, d-smash the shield, FC fair/nair -> dsmash the shield, d-smash people recovering low, SDI out of d-air shine combos and d-smash, crouch cancel any approach by Mario and d-smash,... just don't d-smash Jiggs.
[COLLAPSE="Magus CG data"]
Made a text file with everything using AR awhile back along with some other stuff I do when CGing.
-----------------------
Falco (15%-108%)
-----------------------
***U-Throw D-Smash***
Away: 0%-31% (Must Walk)
Behind: 0%-10%
*** No DI ***
End: (Pivot=109%-111%), (Non-Pivot=108%)
*** Up-Towards DI ***
End: (JC Grab=117%-118%), (Dash Grab=109%-111%)
(U-Tilt, Turnaround U-Tilt [Up&Towards DI] Ends @ 95%), (U-Smash KOs @ 118%-150% on FD)
--------------------
Fox (21%-96%)
--------------------
***U-Throw D-Smash***
Away: 0%-26% (Must Walk)
Behind: 0%-12% (11-12 is Picky)
*** No DI ***
End: (Pivot=104%-106%), (Non-Pivot=96%)
*** Up-Towards DI ***
End: (JC Grab=108%-109%), (Dash Grab=102%)
(U-Tilt, Turnaround U-Tilt [Up&Towards DI] Ends @ 97%), (U-Smash KOs @ 112%-145% on FD)
-------------------------------
Captain Falcon (1%-77%)
-------------------------------
(Use Standing Turn-around grab for behind DI from 0%-9%)
***U-Throw D-Smash***
Away: N/A
Behind: 0%-7%
*** No DI ***
End: (Pivot=78%-79%), (Non-Pivot=69%, Turn Around Grab=77%)
*** Up-Towards DI ***
End: (JC Grab=83%-84%), (Dash Grab=78%-79%)
[/COLLAPSE]
Out of shield options frame data stuff I need to organize... if they don't get pushed off the edge... if they do then none of this matters and you should just look at aerial startups and stuff. I think its more useful to look at the vulnerable frames with a defensive maneuver. This includes grabs since they give you a form of invincibility sorta. vf=vulnerable frames before invincibility/hitbox. I'm not gonna bother listing OOS options that have more than 14 vulnerable frames.
Jump start: the number of frames between the input (frame 0) and the first frame a character is actually in the air. Pretty important for figuring out JC options OOS, aerials OOS, etc.
Fox, ICs, Pichu, Pikachu, Sheik, Samus, Kirby: 3
CF, Doc, Mario, Luigi, Ness, GW, Marth, Young Link: 4
Peach!, Yoshi, DK, Falco, Jiggs, M2, Roy: 5
Ganon, Zelda, Link: 6
Bowser: 8 ew
Vulnerable frames prior to invincibility from a roll:
Jiggs: 1; Yoshi: None! Yoshi's entire roll duration is invincible; Everyone Else: 3
Vulnerable frames prior to invincibility from a spotdodge:
Bowser: 3; Zelda and CF: 2; Everyone else: 1
Vulnerable frames prior to a shield-grab:
Samus and Yoshi: 17; Zelda: 11; Link and Young Link: 10; Bowser: 8; DK, Ness: 7
Everyone else: 6
Bowser OOS: spotdodge or roll (vf=3), grab (vf=8+), up-b OOS (amazing). All his other options are baaaad.
Captain Falcon OOS: spotdodge (vf=2), roll (vf=3), grab (vf=6+), uair (vf=9+), nair (vf=10+).
Donkey Kong: spotdodge (vf=1), roll (vf=3), grab (vf=7+), uair (vf=10+), bair (vf=11+), up-smash (vf=13+), nair (vf=14+).
Many thanks to:
Strong Bad for clarifications on move staling and nair hitbox timing.
KirbyKaze... stuff
Magus for the Shieldstun and Hitlag formula, up-throw CG info, and Down-B percentages.
Seanson for his hitbox program
Stratocaster for the hitbox gifs
Superdoodleman for frame data
Sveet for showing me the d-smash phantom hits vs. the sandbag ;p
VaNz for being Vanz