Patch 1.16 Discussion - "The Witch Hunt is over"

[ParanoidDrone]

4. She is probably top 15 as long as your opponent is bad at SDI. But in top level play, it should never be the case.

I touched on this a bit earlier but I'll say it outright.

I can stipulate that the new SDI multiplier makes Witch Twist unreliable at best. And certainly, Bayonetta's "flowchart" combos (e.g. Twist > ABK > ABK > Twist or Twist > ABK > Twist > ABK) make it very easy to predict the second Twist and SDI out. However, I am unwilling to write it off completely until it's been demonstrated in actual matches that a player can reliably SDI out on reaction, if only because Witch Twist is still a frame 4 move that can be done OOS. So unless you're deliberately baiting Twist to SDI out (in which case why aren't you dodging it outright) I'd like to see it in action instead of simply proclaiming it busted and useless.

The reason I want to see it in an actual match is because when testing with a partner, they know exactly what's coming, when it's coming, and what to do for an optimal escape. All of these factors will be reduced outside of a testing context.

 

[RedMarf78]

I touched on this a bit earlier but I'll say it outright.

I can stipulate that the new SDI multiplier makes Witch Twist unreliable at best. And certainly, Bayonetta's "flowchart" combos (e.g. Twist > ABK > ABK > Twist or Twist > ABK > Twist > ABK) make it very easy to predict the second Twist and SDI out. However, I am unwilling to write it off completely until it's been demonstrated in actual matches that a player can reliably SDI out on reaction, if only because Witch Twist is still a frame 4 move that can be done OOS. So unless you're deliberately baiting Twist to SDI out (in which case why aren't you dodging it outright) I'd like to see it in action instead of simply proclaiming it busted and useless.

The reason I want to see it in an actual match is because when testing with a partner, they know exactly what's coming, when it's coming, and what to do for an optimal escape. All of these factors will be reduced outside of a testing context.

Players will probably only be able to SDI WT1 out of shield if they predict it as they're hitting a shield, but the problem is that after the WT1 WT2 basically becomes useless because all the opponent has to do is SDI like mad for the rest of the combo. The fact that WT2 and DABK are basically useless now limits Bayo's combos and removes her kill combo's/zero-to-deaths completely against competent players. That said, while the nerfs definitely hit hard I think Bayo will still end up being top 20 (top 15 maybe?). Even without WT2 and DABK Bayonetta still has a great punish game as she has access to many combos that can easily rack up anywhere from 20 to 40%, her main problem now is securing the kill.

More on WT1:
I think Bayonetta players will have to not rely on With Twist much (even WT1) in order to stay relevant in the meta. I'm pretty sure that WT1's hitbox is small enough that using it out of shield is basically worthless against spaced aerials (which is how a lot of the cast plays neutral). Plus if Bayo's are always looking for WT1 oos players will just play more defensively or use projectiles. The fact that WT1 can be SDI's out of now limits it to only being used as a quick out of shield punish and the fact that the move's utility is limited to this one scenario makes it much more predictable.

 

[RedMarf78]

I don't have access to my wii u right now so I can't test this myself but I'll put it out there anyway. In a video I was watching I noticed that Bayonetta can hit with the back side of DABK; if someone manages to do on purpose would it be possible to combo into an attack? (looks like it'd super impractical if it's possible but more options are better)

video: (Reverse DABK thing at about 2:15)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADdttG45bWo

(this match was from 1.1.5)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I don't have access to my wii u right now so I can't test this myself but I'll put it out there anyway. In a video I was watching I noticed that Bayonetta can hit with the back side of DABK; if someone manages to do on purpose would it be possible to combo into an attack? (looks like it'd super impractical if it's possible but more options are better)

video: (Reverse DABK thing at about 2:15)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADdttG45bWo

(this match was from 1.1.5)

dABK's hitbox was shrunk as part of 1.16, so I'm not sure it's even possible to get a back hit like that anymore.

 

[redcometchar]

I don't have access to my wii u right now so I can't test this myself but I'll put it out there anyway. In a video I was watching I noticed that Bayonetta can hit with the back side of DABK; if someone manages to do on purpose would it be possible to combo into an attack? (looks like it'd super impractical if it's possible but more options are better)

video: (Reverse DABK thing at about 2:15)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADdttG45bWo

(this match was from 1.1.5)

This wont happen anymore because of the hitbox size reduction. It is still possible to hit with the back of dabk but in order for it to happen, they would have to run into it.

 

[leesinger]

SoccerStar9001 and everyone else who thinks bayo's neutral is bad. Its only bad because the bayo players have never had to develop it in the first place. We only had to rely on hitting dab kicks into stocks, not playing a neutral like every other character. At the guy complaining that DAB kick is useless now, like I said in my first comment, it is useless offensively(almost), however it is still a super safe landing option and if it hits shield is still completely safe as she bounces up. Let me explain why bayonetta has amazing shield pressure. Short hop nair auto cancels, meaning you can literally just spam it and beat out any aerial hitbox that comes out and if you land with it on shield, you can buffer an up b which comes out faster than shield grab. Additionally jab is an amzing tool in neutral because once you get shield to about 50% you can literally just start her rapid jab in their face and it will break shield unless they let go of shield. DAB kick is still ok at pressuring shield, but I still dont like that option cause she has lag when you land. Dtilt only had the top of the hitbox nerfed its still an amazing move for spacing and leads to death from up air at high percents or possible deats early from witch twist/side b stuff. Witch time is still completely obscene in high level play. You have a move that literally punishes someone from pressing a button. Do you have any idea how amazing that is? And yes it literally nets a kill at 60% unless you've been spamming it. Its called down tilt charged upsmash. I'm not pulling this **** out of my ass I'm a top 5 bayo in the country and shooting to be number 1 by actually evolving her meta. My tag is calculus this is me here vs void at lvl up expo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssy1bAT_1jQ and me vs JK another top bayo in the countryhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9KWJ5k3pDM&list=PLcMdMmtHkPpRzus6ab7glyJ07aqZQoBaD&index=9

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Witch time is still completely obscene in high level play. You have a move that literally punishes someone from pressing a button. Do you have any idea how amazing that is? And yes it literally nets a kill at 60% unless you've been spamming it. Its called down tilt charged upsmash.

Oh good I'm not the only person that does that. I prefer Heel Slide to dsmash just because meteor smashes are fun, but that's not always feasible.

 

[CreamyFatone]

SoccerStar9001 and everyone else who thinks bayo's neutral is bad. Its only bad because the bayo players have never had to develop it in the first place. We only had to rely on hitting dab kicks into stocks, not playing a neutral like every other character. At the guy complaining that DAB kick is useless now, like I said in my first comment, it is useless offensively(almost), however it is still a super safe landing option and if it hits shield is still completely safe as she bounces up. Let me explain why bayonetta has amazing shield pressure. Short hop nair auto cancels, meaning you can literally just spam it and beat out any aerial hitbox that comes out and if you land with it on shield, you can buffer an up b which comes out faster than shield grab. Additionally jab is an amzing tool in neutral because once you get shield to about 50% you can literally just start her rapid jab in their face and it will break shield unless they let go of shield. DAB kick is still ok at pressuring shield, but I still dont like that option cause she has lag when you land. Dtilt only had the top of the hitbox nerfed its still an amazing move for spacing and leads to death from up air at high percents or possible deats early from witch twist/side b stuff. Witch time is still completely obscene in high level play. You have a move that literally punishes someone from pressing a button. Do you have any idea how amazing that is? And yes it literally nets a kill at 60% unless you've been spamming it. Its called down tilt charged upsmash. I'm not pulling this **** out of my *** I'm a top 5 bayo in the country and shooting to be number 1 by actually evolving her meta. My tag is calculus this is me here vs void at lvl up expo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssy1bAT_1jQ and me vs JK another top bayo in the countryhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9KWJ5k3pDM&list=PLcMdMmtHkPpRzus6ab7glyJ07aqZQoBaD&index=9

That second game was ****ing amazing.

I don't know how you do that horizontal fair stuff, I can never get it to work for me, they always fall or jump out.

Anyways, I think I really like the direction this thread is starting to go in. I'm proud of you guys.

 

[Lorde]

My tag is calculus this is me here vs void at lvl up expo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssy1bAT_1jQ and me vs JK another top bayo in the countryhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9KWJ5k3pDM&list=PLcMdMmtHkPpRzus6ab7glyJ07aqZQoBaD&index=9

Great stuff, man. Taking a game off of a top player is no easy task.

It's amusing that even top players had no idea how to DI any of Bayo's combos before the nerfs.

Keep up the great work, man.

 

[redcometchar]

SoccerStar9001 I'm not pulling this **** out of my *** I'm a top 5 bayo in the country and shooting to be number 1 by actually evolving her meta. My tag is calculus this is me here vs void at lvl up expo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssy1bAT_1jQ and me vs JK another top bayo in the countryhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9KWJ5k3pDM&list=PLcMdMmtHkPpRzus6ab7glyJ07aqZQoBaD&index=9

This is 1.1.5 right? and shout-outs to vegas

 

[deepseadiva]

This is 1.1.5 right? and shout-outs to vegas

Yes. Youtube displays the date the video was published above the description.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

My tag is calculus this is me here vs void at lvl up expo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssy1bAT_1jQ and me vs JK another top bayo in the countryhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9KWJ5k3pDM&list=PLcMdMmtHkPpRzus6ab7glyJ07aqZQoBaD&index=9

Isn't both of these 1.1.5? Back when Dive Kick can still be used as an approach options.
I'd rate Bayonetta's neutral maybe a 2/5 stars. It isn't like Ganon/Zelda's neutral, but it is heavily lacking in multiple aspect.

Let me explain why bayonetta has amazing shield pressure. Short hop nair auto cancels, meaning you can literally just spam it and beat out any aerial hitbox that comes out and if you land with it on shield, you can buffer an up b which comes out faster than shield grab. Additionally jab is an amzing tool in neutral because once you get shield to about 50% you can literally just start her rapid jab in their face and it will break shield unless they let go of shield.

So Bayonetta has great shield pressure if she aimlessly spam attacks and use unsafe moves on an opponent who let you chip away their shield for free.........
Shield pressure is to force your opponent to drop their shield as they fear a shield pop. Pro players are very good at protecting their shields, Bayonetta's shield pressure is very inconsistent and unreliable.
Nair is easily beaten by an anti air like Mario USmash, and it can get extremely predictable if you spam it. Nair also doesn't multi hit either (outside of the transition from Nair to BA Nair) and the damage it can deal is not even for a good shield pressure.
Jab is frame 9 and unsafe on shield. It does a high amount of shield damage so I'd agree it is a good shield pressure, but the fact it is unsafe on shield hold it back heavily as the opponent's shield will regenerate as they punish the move during the endlag.

Witch time is still completely obscene in high level play. You have a move that literally punishes someone from pressing a button. Do you have any idea how amazing that is? And yes it literally nets a kill at 60% unless you've been spamming it. Its called down tilt charged upsmash.

No disagreement.
Witch Time is not very reliable, but used correctly is still a great counter.

I'm not pulling this **** out of my *** I'm a top 5 bayo in the country and shooting to be number 1 by actually evolving her meta.

Good luck!

 

[Xephilon]

Xephilon

1. You didn't specify so I couldn't tell, sorry.

2. So I take it you are a full time Bayonetta main or do you use her as a secondary?
Are you sure your opponent knows how to SDI properly? Did they bother at all? If your opponent doesn't bother with SDI, Bayonetta has tons of combos.
I also want to know what kind of combos you performed.

3. I don't really want to be a negative impact myself, but I am being honest with myself.
If your opponent doesn't know SDI, she is high tier. But if your opponent know SDI and can do it properly, she is mid tier at best.

4. She is probably top 15 as long as your opponent is bad at SDI. But in top level play, it should never be the case.

1. Oh...well sorry if I came out strong I guess? >_>

2. I can't say for sure I'm a true main or not as I believe my Luigi and Bayo are up to par. I used them depending on the MU.
Yes, some of them know how to SDI as they were doing it in patch 1.1.5.
One combo to mention on a Marth was Dtilt -> Nair -> ABK -> Bair -> (if they don't airdodge) ABK -> Aerial/Up B. This works at early percents. If at times they got out of Up B and they did it a little too late I try to bait an airdodge or go straight for an aerial and land with dABK.

3. I understand, happened to me at first with Bayo and Luigi as well.

4. Again, it depends. You can still mix up after they escape for other moves and such. I haven't entered a tournament since her nerf due to work, just some friendlies practice. I might be going to one on Sat and see how I go.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Good luck to you then, Xephilon.

 

[Flamegeyser]

It just bothers me that even before the nerf, our matchup spread was pretty sub-par compared to the other high tiers. Now it's even worse. Anyone with a good projectile game annihilates us, especially Tink, and including Diddy.

 

[Masque]

It just bothers me that even before the nerf, our matchup spread was pretty sub-par compared to the other high tiers. Now it's even worse. Anyone with a good projectile game annihilates us, especially Tink, and including Diddy.

Yeah, Tink and Diddy have always been extremely frustrating matchups for me.

 

[blackghost]

It just bothers me that even before the nerf, our matchup spread was pretty sub-par compared to the other high tiers. Now it's even worse. Anyone with a good projectile game annihilates us, especially Tink, and including Diddy.

Megaman is a freakin wall.
But we can slide under some of his projectiles of he starts getting predictable.

 

[FernandoTuxo]

Hello, so when bayo was nerfed I was really sad thinking now that i would have to play another high tier to be able to win any game... but I really like Bayonetta and don't want to stop playing her just because some tier list (I am not even good to worry about that, I just play FG and with friends)

So the big problem for me was closing stocks, normally i would have to take the oponent ar 140% or more and I wanted to close a stock in 90% 105% or when the dtilt upair would not take a stock.

So I made some combos in the training room, the combo box always show was a combo and there is 'versions' of the same combo that change the side so you can mess with your oponent DI. None use witch twist because is really easy to DI, there is a quick video here

Hope will help some of you Bayonetta mains(helped me in for glory hehe) >.<

Dont give up, play the character that you like and you have fun playing!! Bye >~<

 

[Rose alumna]

Unrelated to every thing else you guys and gals where talking about. I just want to point out bayo can do a heel slide no hold footstool but I can't get any thing off of it...

 

[Flamegeyser]

What I've been tryin' for recently is the combo that time forgot, Heel Slide1->utilt->whatever you want. Gets some nice ground damage started before going in for the true frame traps and mixups.

 

[deepseadiva]

What I've been tryin' for recently is the combo that time forgot, Heel Slide1->utilt->whatever you want. Gets some nice ground damage started before going in for the true frame traps and mixups.

Lmaoooooo "the combo time forgot"

Honestly I'm so happy for this patch, it really is forcing us to look into this deep character. Overpowered reward is nice, but I'll settle for good reward for good effort.

I just wish there was SOMETHING from Dive Kick now. I've been trying to get Bullet Climax pops at certain percents at least... but that move is looking like the saddest fatality...

 

[Lorde]

At the very least, dABK punishes opponents for making bad choices with their DI since DIing in gives you the old dABK angle

But yeah, it's trash offensively now

 

[Ghidorah14]

Personally I've found it to be great as a safe, long range poke in neutral.

 

[deepseadiva]

Personally I've found it to be great as a safe, long range poke in neutral.

Yes.

I hope we don't get tunnel vision, just because a move doesn't combo or kill doesn't mean it's bad. Dive Kick on hit or shield is still a successful move.

It's just my entitled 1.1.5 self that's upset xD

 

[Lorde]

Is b-reversed witch twist ever that useful? now with the stupid sdi multiplier, it's probs not as useful as it could have been, but b-reversing it would make the opponent's optimal escape di turn into optimal di for us to continue combos

i'll have to play around with it the next time i play with my friends

 

[leesinger]

Is b-reversed witch twist ever that useful? now with the stupid sdi multiplier, it's probs not as useful as it could have been, but b-reversing it would make the opponent's optimal escape di turn into optimal di for us to continue combos

i'll have to play around with it the next time i play with my friends

Yes b reversing is actually almost always correct as the DI mixup is even more potent now that the SDI multiplier increased. However its extremely difficult to know how they are going to DI the combo. Also there is still the 50/50 from prepatch depending on whether or not the DI up and away or down and away meaning you have to jump before you side b or just side b out of the witch twist. So overally killing off the top comes down to getting like 3 reads in a row (on people who SDI).

 

[ぱみゅ]

I've found WT1>ABK>WT2 to be pretty consistent, but I am not sure how much of that consistence is due to my opponent's lack of DI/SDI

 

[Rose alumna]

So I think I have found a good mixup With Bayo that can cause lots of damage or a death if your opponent Do/SDI Correctly.And a Possible death if they dont DI/SDI properly So far I've only tested with a player mario/fox/Dk and Jigglypuff I'll only point out the characters I had Trouble with performing this on.
The combo/Combos I used was Hs(Hold)>Up tilt>Up air>Wt>Wt>abk>Abk>Up air
This combo can't kill fox from 0 but add a few % it should cause death but watch there Di especially with the last two abk it can make the up air much harder to land but still possible.
The combo I used for jigglypuff was Dtilt>Uptilt>Upair>Wt>Wt>Abk>Abk up air
For jigglypuff the struggle I've found has been the last abks if she DIs down you should still be able to hit the up air but if she DIs up you may have to jump for the up air Note the Wt>Jump>Wt> Extra glitch jump is still possible to do So if you do this fast enough You should have an extra jump.
I would like to hear feedback Thoughts changes maybe?? And or Questions.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

So I think I have found a good mixup With Bayo that can cause lots of damage or a death if your opponent Do/SDI Correctly.

There is no way that is true unless you made a typo.

The combo/Combos I used was Hs(Hold)>Up tilt>Up air>Wt>Wt>abk>Abk>Up air

With SDI you can escape out of either Witch Twist, Witch Twist 2 to ABK doesn't work with SDI up.
ABK can also be SDIed, albeit it is harder.
It is a good combo if your opponent can't SDI properly so good find I guess.

For jigglypuff

Can't she just rest in this combo?

 

[Rose alumna]

There is no way that is true unless you made a typo.

Yes it was a typo I ment doesn't sdi/di or they do it incorrectly

Can't she just rest in this combo?

Well if she Di she will miss the rest so she has to get hit by the abk without Di but she can still miss and you can follow up with a punish

With SDI you can escape out of either Witch Twist, Witch Twist 2 to ABK doesn't work with SDI up.
ABK can also be SDIed, albeit it is harder.
It is a good combo if your opponent can't SDI properly so good find I guess.

True True you can pop up out of the Wt1 I haven't seen Di/SDI out of Wt2 yet

 

[wedl!!]

"The combo that time forgot?" What the **** I was doing slide>utilt since day 1 and still did it prepatch

 

[BlackCephie]

I never thought her neutral was bad ;in the first place, due to nair and dtilt. Im just wondering where all her damage is going to come from now that anyone can just SDI out of her specials now. It all seems so backwards now.

 

[Funbot28]

Here is a video from @TSM ZeRo that explains the Bayo Nerf in depth:

 

[Philos-kun]

I also don't find her neutral "bad", just average. It's just that you have to get used to her moves and a lot, and I mean, A LOT of prediction is involved to success.

Been playing her non-stop FG and I can conclude that she's pretty much dead. Still, I main her because Witch Time is my fave move in the game and one of the most usefull ones to escape/punish, beside her sassy personality goes with my taste

Bayo is still good and the witch can't go lower than this so there's still hope for a future patch to fix her Divekick and Witch Twist.

 

[Tythaeus]

I also don't find her neutral "bad", just average. It's just that you have to get used to her moves and a lot, and I mean, A LOT of prediction is involved to success.

Been playing her non-stop FG and I can conclude that she's pretty much dead. Still, I main her because Witch Time is my fave move in the game and one of the most usefull ones to escape/punish, beside her sassy personality goes with my taste

Bayo is still good and the witch can't go lower than this so there's still hope for a future patch to fix her Divekick and Witch Twist.

She's not dead. She just doesn't have the long, high damaging combos anymore.

 

[Dark_Ky]

She's not dead. She just doesn't have the long, high damaging combos anymore.

what people mean with her beeing "dead" is that she is pretty much irrelevant on higher levels of play

 

[Lorde]

Technically, she still has them. They're just super easy to escape now.

 

[Xephilon]

what people mean with her beeing "dead" is that she is pretty much irrelevant on higher levels of play

I have to disagree on this. She did take a big hit but she's still viable on higher level of plays (IMO), just require a different mind set. When will we know for sure? When a super major comes around and we see a Bayo in top 32. I tested her myself against one of my training partners who can SDI like mad and it was pretty even on Wins/Losses (he uses Sheik if anyone asks) which is one of the reasons why I still believe she has a chance.

 

[redcometchar]

what people mean with her beeing "dead" is that she is pretty much irrelevant on higher levels of play

I also don't find her neutral "bad", just average. It's just that you have to get used to her moves and a lot, and I mean, A LOT of prediction is involved to success.

She's not dead. She just doesn't have the long, high damaging combos anymore.

What a load of crap. Just because there is now counter play to her frame 4 disjointed reversal doesnt mean that she is irrelevant or even that she doesnt have good punishes.

Now you guys just have to practice doing stuff that isnt free or obvious and you clearly dont want to do that.

And wait a minute, your telling me that you have to predict stuff in neutral to have success?!?!?! Oh no, its like we are playing a competitive fighting game! Now i have to learn Footsies!!

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I never thought her neutral was bad ;in the first place, due to nair and dtilt. Im just wondering where all her damage is going to come from now that anyone can just SDI out of her specials now. It all seems so backwards now.

Her neutral is lackluster because she has below average mobility and framedata. She can't really approach a zoner like Toon Link and Rosalina.

Here is a video from @TSM ZeRo that explains the Bayo Nerf in depth:

I didn't really expect much. Just "she is nerfed hard, but still got Witch Time".

I also don't find her neutral "bad", just average. It's just that you have to get used to her moves and a lot, and I mean, A LOT of prediction is involved to success.

It isn't average either, it is below average. Being forced to make a lot of prediction is a sign of a bad neutral.

I have to disagree on this. She did take a big hit but she's still viable on higher level of plays (IMO), just require a different mind set.

As long as the opponent doesn't know SDI, she is viable. If they do, there are so much better characters that are pretty much better at everything compared to her.
If you want to use a different mindset to fight you might as well use a different character that are better at it.

I tested her myself against one of my training partners who can SDI like mad and it was pretty even on Wins/Losses (he uses Sheik if anyone asks) which is one of the reasons why I still believe she has a chance.

Every character has "a chance", but it is pretty much undeniable it is a vey small one.

What a load of crap. Just because there is now counter play to her frame 4 disjointed reversal doesnt mean that she is irrelevant or even that she doesnt have good punishes.

The counter play is easy to learn and very consistent once mastered. The counter play heavily kills a big clunk of Bayonetta's punish game, forcing her to rely on only 10 to 15% combos.

Now you guys just have to practice doing stuff that isnt free or obvious and you clearly dont want to do that.

The only one super negative here is me, stop making random accusation.

And wait a minute, your telling me that you have to predict stuff in neutral to have success?!?!?! Oh no, its like we are playing a competitive fighting game! Now i have to learn Footsies!!

That was always the case, lol. We are telling you she is quite unviable at high level play.