Patch 1.16 Discussion - "The Witch Hunt is over"

[DungeonMaster]

In another, it's more like a regression of Samus's buffs
At the moment, the biggest thing is figuring out our damage combos. How to get from low to mid, then mid to high / kill percent for at the very least Bair, if not some sort of WT + Uair KO.

That's a very accurate statement in my opinion. We never got to the play the pre-release Samus, the had adjusted the timings of hitstun and many of the training room combos just didn't work in real game.
You're in a similar situation now, where you should categorize everything you have, similar to the complete combo thread for Samus and then go through the laborious process of figuring out what actually works.
It's going to require really dedicated player(s) to bring forth the new meta.
If I could suggest a template, we started by listing everything we could get to register in training mode vs. a specific target (for historical reasons it was ROB) with % ranges of applicability.
Only after a lot of tabulating based off of each combo starter did the big picture emerge.
SDI can only push so far, keep in mind. Yes it's rough, you went from very broad combos to having to find the sweetspots.

 

[Scrubtorights]

I wonder if rage works with Bayo's moves differently now? Well I wish you guys good luck on your labbing regardless.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Also, word of note. This was performed with NO INPUT on the 2nd Controller.

This video isn't accurate at all then unfortunately. DI and SDI will instantly end to combo at the Witch Twist part.

I wonder if rage works with Bayo's moves differently now? Well I wish you guys good luck on your labbing regardless.

****, forgot about rage. Her combos is likely extremely messed up with rage.

 

[EODM07]

This video isn't accurate at all then unfortunately. DI and SDI will instantly end to combo at the Witch Twist part.

I do apologize about that, if possible I'll try and test it again but with SDI input on the 2nd Controller. Gonna be having some fun with trying to SDI when doing Bayonetta's combo.

 

[Luminario]

You ever see someone make horrible mistake that they thought was a good idea, but the only thing you can do is watch in despair as whatever they tried to do crashed and burned? Yeah...
What were they thinking with this balance patch?

 

[blackghost]

The absolute most frustrating thing for me is before if you over exteded a combo you could be punished. now I can be punished for LANDING a combo. the sdi multipler makes it so someone can get hit with WT and get below e. thats not right.
Looking at what ESAM said on twitter he expects her to drop like a rock.
I did watch nairo beat the crap out of gunblade with he rlast night but its really obvious that gunblade STILL didnt know how to di her combos.
last part of my rant why are people telling us that witch time is a reliable kill move?

 

[Buddhahobo]

last part of my rant why are people telling us that witch time is a reliable kill move?

Because most people have no idea how this character ever worked to begin with and keep saying that Witch Time is a guaranteed KO counter.

 

[Arrei]

This does leave me wondering where they were even collecting data about what nerfs needed to happen. I always thought her easy combos needed to be preserved to be faithful to the character, but their reward needed to be dampened and their risk increased in such a way so that 0-deaths could not happen and her reward could match the risk involved. I've seen quite a number of more reasonable nerf methods suggested to maintain her core while making her less overwhelming to play against, yet they seem to have gone ignored while the devs went ham making cuts with the bonesaw to her core BnB gameplay. Greninja and Dedede's speed nerf aside, they haven't made any such mind-boggling changes before, so where did this come from?

 

[AAA Battery]

Right now I'm labbing potential Bayonetta kill confirms. I feel that at high enough percents, you can Down ABK to Standard ABK to a double jump up air. Though I only have Level 9 CPUs to test this on. What's more is that Witch Twist while unreliable for combos still could work as an escape option since it comes out on frame 4. Bayonetta still may have some decent tools to work with after the nerf. And honestly, it's making me consider picking her up as a 3rd main.

 

[Astrofallz]

Right now I'm labbing potential Bayonetta kill confirms. I feel that at high enough percents, you can Down ABK to Standard ABK to a double jump up air. Though I only have Level 9 CPUs to test this on. What's more is that Witch Twist while unreliable for combos still could work as an escape option since it comes out on frame 4. Bayonetta still may have some decent tools to work with after the nerf. And honestly, it's making me consider picking her up as a 3rd main.

What percent is high enough to get Dabk to combo to Abk?

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Right now I'm labbing potential Bayonetta kill confirms. I feel that at high enough percents, you can Down ABK to Standard ABK to a double jump up air.

Tested and unreliable with DI.

Though I only have Level 9 CPUs to test this on.

CPU doesn't SDI either.

What's more is that Witch Twist while unreliable for combos still could work as an escape option since it comes out on frame 4.

If we aren't talking about the attack properties we need to look at it for a broader perspective.
Witch Twist has duration of 28 frames, travel in a straight line, it is shorter than her jump and has no hitbox below her. She also possess landing lag of at least 19 frames so any aerials after it is not safe on shield.
Honestly, dive kick is a better escape option.

 

[AAA Battery]

What percent is high enough to get Dabk to combo to Abk?

...well I was just told that it's actually an unreliable combo thanks to DI so it likely won't work against human players. Plus it would take 130+ and that's mostly on floaty characters. :/

 

[Zalezus]

ABK to ABK is a bit easier to link due to the knockback change (position, timing, etc.)

If the target opts for SDI out of the elevator, her aerials can cover those options, threaten the space, or tack on extra bullet damage.

Her targets need to pay more attention to SDI/DI as the wrong direction will ensure another hit confirm. B-reversed Witch Twist is still solid in this regard to confuse your opponents DI. If you can cross up someone enough to make them DI in on a dive kick, then up and away we go....

Not too upset about dive kick, no longer combos true into anything but at low percent can possibly be followed up by late falling Up Air and at high percent by ABK. It's still a great movement option.

My personal favorite, the ABK cross up (SH Fair or Nair > ABK before landing > optional 2nd ABK > Bair) is a bit more smooth due to ABK carrying the target a little farther with you.

My $0.02

PS: less knockback on Witch Twist can be good as it can allow for a much friendlier window with which to follow up

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I won't have access to the patch until Saturday, but preliminary thoughts on possible combos and stuff:

Twist > ABK > ABK > bair for damage racking, or maybe uair. Possible wrinkle in the changed ABK knockback.
(stuff >) dABK > Bullet Climax. Again, not sure how the knockback angle will pan out, but additional damage via projectile or forcing an airdodge seems like something worth considering.
If one tries to dABK offstage from the ledge and it whiffs, can Bayonetta make it back to the ledge with Twist > jump > Twist? Obviously if it hits then she'll get the bounce.
Jump > double jump > Twist counts as Twist 1, not Twist 2. For all that may or may not matter.

 

[Astrofallz]

If we aren't talking about the attack properties we need to look at it for a broader perspective.
Witch Twist has duration of 28 frames, travel in a straight line, it is shorter than her jump and has no hitbox below her. She also possess landing lag of at least 19 frames so any aerials after it is not safe on shield.
Honestly, dive kick is a better escape option.[/QUOTE]
Witch Twist is frame 4. You really can't argue with a frame 4 "get off me" tool that works OoS. If you're opponent is derping around your shield then it should be possible to OoS Witch Twist then Dabk away. In order to get an meaningful punish they would have to start DIing at the start of Witch Twist.

Which if they are derping around your shield they won't get to do that since they'll be 13-19 frames in (human reaction time) before starting to SDI. The counter to that is read that they are going to get up b'd and start SDIing before the hit. So as the Bank player you're gonna have to mixup what you're gonna do when you the opponent does something unsafe on shield.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

ABK to ABK is a bit easier to link due to the knockback change (position, timing, etc.)

Only at very low percent and with rage the move is extremely hard to link properly.

If the target opts for SDI out of the elevator, her aerials can cover those options, threaten the space, or tack on extra bullet damage.

Her target has four options to SDI. She can't really react to it.

Her targets need to pay more attention to SDI/DI as the wrong direction will ensure another hit confirm. B-reversed Witch Twist is still solid in this regard to confuse your opponents DI. If you can cross up someone enough to make them DI in on a dive kick, then up and away we go....

That sound almost impossible on a serious level.

Not too upset about dive kick, no longer combos true into anything but at low percent can possibly be followed up by late falling Up Air and at high percent by ABK. It's still a great movement option.

Great movement option but it doesn't chain into ABK nor Uair at any % with DI.

My personal favorite, the ABK cross up (SH Fair or Nair > ABK before landing > optional 2nd ABK > Bair) is a bit more smooth due to ABK carrying the target a little farther with you.

ABK to Bair can be airdodged. Plus the knockback increase mess with the move at high % and rage can really screw things up.

Witch Twist is frame 4. You really can't argue with a frame 4 "get off me" tool that works OoS. If you're opponent is derping around your shield then it should be possible to OoS Witch Twist then Dabk away. In order to get an meaningful punish they would have to start DIing at the start of Witch Twist.

I wasn't talking about the OoS potential, but as an movement/escape option.

 

[Zalezus]

Only at very low percent and with rage the move is extremely hard to link properly.


Her target has four options to SDI. She can't really react to it.


That sound almost impossible on a serious level.


Great movement option but it doesn't chain into ABK nor Uair at any % with DI.


ABK to Bair can be airdodged. Plus the knockback increase mess with the move at high % and rage can really screw things up.


I wasn't talking about the OoS potential, but as an movement/escape option.

SDI is a factor, but you can indeed read which direction based on how they shift out of your hits. You do not, however, need to react to plan on threatening unoccupied space.

If you can land a second Witch Twist, chances are DI will already be in play. Confusing your opponent's DI and movement (or rather exploitation based on what you've conditioned them to want) has always been a part of smash and will be especially useful here.

I'm not saying that Dive Kick will give you the combo counter in training mode as "true", but Uair and ABK can connect at their respective precents. Keep in mind that ABK is also a movement option and can be followed up with falling Nair to cover the space the opponent though was safe because they didn't get hit.

 

[Astrofallz]

ABK to Bair can be airdodged. Plus the knockback increase mess with the move at high % and rage can really screw things up.

I wasn't talking about the OoS potential, but as an movement/escape option.[/QUOTE]
So it's a 50/50. Air dodges can be baited and punished. This may be something we look into now. ABK to Bair catches double jump, no input and can possibly stuff some reversals. Get an air dodge reads and you may be able to extend the combo with a punish.

I read it as escape like escape pressure. My b

 

[SoccerStar9001]

ABK to Bair can be airdodged. Plus the knockback increase mess with the move at high % and rage can really screw things up.

I wasn't talking about the OoS potential, but as an movement/escape option.[/QUOT]

Is your computer okay?

So it's a 50/50. Air dodges can be baited and punished. This may be something we look into now. ABK to Bair catches double jump, no input and can possibly stuff some reversals. Get an air dodge reads and you may be able to extend the combo with a punish.

Hmmmm..... maybe.
But I think the messed up KBG will ruin this possibility.

 

[Astrofallz]

Only at very low percent and with rage the move is extremely hard to link properly.


Her target has four options to SDI. She can't really react to it.


That sound almost impossible on a serious level.


Great movement option but it doesn't chain into ABK nor Uair at any % with DI.


ABK to Bair can be airdodged. Plus the knockback increase mess with the move at high % and rage can really screw things up.


I wasn't talking about the OoS potential, but as an movement/escape option.

Is your computer okay?


Hmmmm..... maybe.
But I think the messed up KBG will ruin this possibility.

Smashboards on mobile isn't that great lol.

This is all pure theorycraft for me anyway. Once I actually get to lab some stuff and play some matches against actual humans we'll see how many of these ideas actually work.

 

[SonicNKnux]

This features the same death string I created when Bayonetta released.

Anyone want to let me know what Lucina might not have done here?
It may have been that I was able to string because I started r-ABK from underneath her.
I try to string again at 0:42 but when done from above she gets knocked away and I miss the f-air.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Anyone want to let me know what Lucina might not have done here?

DI.
And I'm not even talking about the Witch Twist SDI.
DI down and/or away basically kills any possibility of ABDK followup.

 

[Greda]

A while back I said I would lay this game to rest, but I want to at least add my opinion of her new form before leaving for good.

To begin, a lot of what I try to do no longer works. I let go of 1.1.5 mentality and tried to play her in a new way.

She still doesn't work.

If she was broken before, it doesn't look like they changed that. She's broken in another way, the way where her basic fundamentals no longer work.

Downwards After Burner Kick has basically lost all utility in my opinion.

-Easily leaves you in danger
-Hitbox that doesn't make sense
-Can't combo/No reward for actually landing it (and if you manage to pull something off, it must be VERY situational)
-How did the nerf for this get approved

The only thing I can see this being used for is mobility but even then you have other options.

Now for Witch Twist
-Relatively unsafe
-Only properly combos some of the time
-Not very reliable
-Can't lead into a kill unless you're at the very top, which is harder to do now
-Using bullet arts here still isn't beneficial
-Still a good recovery

Really meh on this one, I'd rather not use it even if I have the opportunity but it can still work.

After Burner Kick
-Combos the best now, in my opinion, but that can change with the discovery of different things.
-Can no longer lead into kills

I'm not really sure when to use this now since Witch Twist is so easily exploitable, and not much leads to it reliably.

Fair
-Still decent

I see where they were trying to go with this but having the other nerfs considered I'm not sure why this happened.

Dair
-Actually reasonable

Dtilt
-Why

--------------

Witch Time still decays like no tomorrow and requires a read to activate, so it's not the best to rely on. I have to choose between damage or kills because of the insane decay.

Which is even worse since now kills and (to some extent) damage are now what her combos now both suck at.

I'm more or less disappointed since I feel like this nerf pushes me to do less instead of get creative, but I'll keep tracking this thread to see if any of you could find anything.

Again, good luck.

 

[CupcakeInAcid]

I won't have access to the patch until Saturday, but preliminary thoughts on possible combos and stuff:

Twist > ABK > ABK > bair for damage racking, or maybe uair. Possible wrinkle in the changed ABK knockback.
(stuff >) dABK > Bullet Climax. Again, not sure how the knockback angle will pan out, but additional damage via projectile or forcing an airdodge seems like something worth considering.
If one tries to dABK offstage from the ledge and it whiffs, can Bayonetta make it back to the ledge with Twist > jump > Twist? Obviously if it hits then she'll get the bounce.
Jump > double jump > Twist counts as Twist 1, not Twist 2. For all that may or may not matter.

I really like dABk to bullet climax, it's not a guaranteed string, but it's useful as a mix up and to rack damage. Plus, if you read their air dodge, you can get them with a fully charged Bullet Climax.

 

[Zalezus]

Try ABK at varying distances. I think closer is better to link into Bair.

This features the same death string I created when Bayonetta released.

Anyone want to let me know what Lucina might not have done here?
It may have been that I was able to string because I started r-ABK from underneath her.
I try to string again at 0:42 but when done from above she gets knocked away and I miss the f-air.

Lucina DI'd in on your Dive Kick. This is the 1.1.5 knockback

This is what I was talking about; if you use your movement and act promptly there will be certain situations that arise where the opponent simply cannot react to your pressure with the correct DI at humanly possible speeds.

 

[blackghost]

This features the same death string I created when Bayonetta released.


Anyone want to let me know what Lucina might not have done here?
It may have been that I was able to string because I started r-ABK from underneath her.
I try to string again at 0:42 but when done from above she gets knocked away and I miss the f-air.

Lucina also should've SDI'ed the witch twist. you can get out of it easily now.
also DI out.

 

[Flawed]

That video is super fradulent, and I know that pretty much doesn't work.Many other variants of this appeared on FB today as well. I usually stay off the Bayo forums, and stay on the D3 side but I had a few things to say

Dive Kick
-I found a niche use for it. It stage spikes recoveries. No one expects it.Simply jump and aim at the ledge with it.
problems: if you miss, for some reason, your up b retains the momentum( was it always like this?) so you will still die.


My "reliable" combo is dtilt, fair 1, witch twist, ABK (ABK2) bair. Thats what I do most of the time. I have encountered some Mew2's able to SDI witch twist immediately and upsmash me - is that seriously a thing? :/

 

[Xephilon]

Hope you guys are able to find good things about her to help you keep going, as for me, looks like she'll be a "For fun" character now. This nerf is way too much. She went from a "combo character with weaknesses" to...I don't know, you even get punished early on for trying to combo in the first place FFS. They hit almost everything good about her but left her weaknesses intact. I just can't bring myself to use her without feeling sad/angry of all the things she lost (not trying to discourage anyone, just my thoughts).

Really, I hope you guys prove me wrong and show that she's still a tough contender. Good luck and hope all ends well. I'll keep track of this thread and see how it goes.

 

[blackghost]

That video is super fradulent, and I know that pretty much doesn't work.Many other variants of this appeared on FB today as well. I usually stay off the Bayo forums, and stay on the D3 side but I had a few things to say

Dive Kick
-I found a niche use for it. It stage spikes recoveries. No one expects it.Simply jump and aim at the ledge with it.
problems: if you miss, for some reason, your up b retains the momentum( was it always like this?) so you will still die.


My "reliable" combo is dtilt, fair 1, witch twist, ABK (ABK2) bair. Thats what I do most of the time. I have encountered some Mew2's able to SDI witch twist immediately and upsmash me - is that seriously a thing? :/

yeah doing that and missing is a death sentence. WT to anything isnt reliable now.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Just remember guys, divekick is "a good starting point for a combo". Man what a mess. It's like we turned from a combo based character into a "bait and get punished" character.

I think we'll be forced to do more normal strings. From 0-10% or so, some people in the bayo discord discovered that we could use RAR uair->bair a few times, finish it with an ABK into uair if we land it properly. Someone else also discovered that with the correct spacing, ABK -> fair is a thing now, that could kill off the side if we can do it consistently.

 

[Kirby Phelps (PK)]

Wow, you guys weren't kidding about her divekick being useless now... What can you even do with it?

 

[Purpledebo]

she's finally balanced

i'm happy with this

 

[AkiraGr]

she's finally balanced

i'm happy with this

What is the purpose of this post here?

Guys any news from the lab. I fell so drained when I play now trying to figure out new set ups but all I can find out are either DI out or SDI that is leaving me with huge disadvantage. More than 30 or 40 frames if I risk more than 2 ABK.

Any ideas about set ups other than the usual sideb>hold>Upb>2ABK>Bair or Upair?

I see in high percentages ABK cannot connect to an upair round 130 or 140 which was a good set up kill combo... I feel so drained right now, this patch is a crime...

 

[11volt]

I personally see Witch Time as Bayonetta's new central thing given her 0-deaths are basically all gone now. However, to optimize Witch Time combos, what method would be the best way to practice? Is using the slow down clock item a viable option?

 

[pikazz]

the only thing I can see her dive kick being is either an "bounching fish" situation from the ledge (an super risky high reward move style death) and if you dive kick AGAINST the stage and hit the wall in a adept to stage spike.

I AM happy over the nerf of the dABK because I saw it way too powerful, but they nerfed it too much so instead of an weaker options, its not an option at all.

I am also happy of the nerf of the Witch twist but SDI out of it is now WAY too easy, would be much more balanced if it was 1.3-1.6 instead for 2

 

[Buddhahobo]

I personally see Witch Time as Bayonetta's new central thing given her 0-deaths are basically all gone now. However, to optimize Witch Time combos, what method would be the best way to practice? Is using the slow down clock item a viable option?

She didn't really have 0-to-deaths, no more than other characters at least.

When your combos only ever seem to kill if the first hit hits you when you're already at around 80% against someone who actually knows what they're doing, it's not a 0-to-death.

Regardless, the problem isn't that the KO combos are gone, it's that to prevent the KO, the developers just took out the combos in and of themselves. They're what the entire character was built around, not Witch Time.

W.Time can help in her probably new role as a pure bait and punish character with singular moves to utilize with the edgeguarding / ledgetrumping options she still has with moves like bair, but the move by design is not dependable in it's 1.1.5/6 form. It's a worse waft.

A slow down clock would put the character in a similar state of slow down, but it's not going to help you optimize W.Time combos that well. The big problems with W.TIme is (a) you don't activate it, your opponent does, (b) being able to actually capitalize on it in the situation you found yourself using it based of where you and the opponent are, (c) understanding the amount of time you actually have at your disposal.

 

[Masque]

she's finally balanced

i'm happy with this

If by "balanced" you mean "unrecognizable" or "completely unlike the character she was conceived to be," then yeah.

 

[Ghidorah14]

We need to buckle down and just accept that she isnt the same anymore. Do what the meta knight players did, and just start from scratch again.

What I mean is, rather than looking for ways to combo off of divekick, look at what kind of utility it provides, namely, a safe landing option, a movement option, a recovery mixup, and a relatively safe poking tool.

 

[redcometchar]

Maybe its time we start looking at fair-> footstool.

Abkd is a di mixup, di in leads to followups. Di away gets caught by regular abk. I know its optimistic but its something.

 

[blackghost]

Maybe its time we start looking at fair-> footstool.

Abkd is a di mixup, di in leads to followups. Di away gets caught by regular abk. I know its optimistic but its something.

Using foostool is interesting. After a footstool we can use Witch time to punish a get up attack or heel slide to read a roll. Can anyone confirm this? It's just theory to me