Palutena's Smash 4 -> Ultimate Buffs?

[Poopyhead]

My worry about them adding Explosive Flame is that it's going to fill practically the same role as Autoreticle. It's slow, laggy, mid distance, does mediocre damage, and doesn't kill, with the benefit of it being that it goes through shields. Problem is that no one (especially in this game) is going to be standing that far away from you and holding shield long enough for you to use the move anyway. And the knockback angle/power is so abysmal that I don't think it'll be practical for edge guarding anyway. And we're losing one of the best (if not the best) reflectors for it.

Ideal realistic scenario is that they buff its kill potential greatly. I just don't know what use it will have. They could have gone with Super Speed or Angelic Missile yet they chose a second standard special.

Aside from that, I am hoping they make her counter able to kill, as that was a complete failure of a move in Smash 4 lol. At least it's faster now.

 

[Hydde]

Yeh, im honestly worried about explosive flame. As flashy as it is, all what u mentioned is true: low dmg, slow, bad launch angle, predictable. This skill doesnt adress palus main problem which is her framedata.
All the “in your face” characters will have no problem getting in melee like always and evading that attack. It isnt even a good edgeguard move because is very unreliable, specially with the magnet zones being still big.

Is cool to have it, dont get me wrong, but as it is, she is practically the same character with the same issues.

 

[kamus_aran]

Have a little faith people, the game isn't out yet and she's not playable in the demo, so who knows?

 

[SethTheMage]

For me personally, I wouldn’t want any other up-special than Warp. Jump Glide is great on its own, but I don’t want to lose Warp-cancelling on ledges, as that was a way to give her more movement options in Smash 4.

Realistically, Auto-reticle and Explosive Flame are her neutral- and side-specials, respectively. I would love to be wrong and have Super Speed as her side-special, but Counter/Reflect combining was probably just to make room for EF. It’s probably unlikely that her nuetral-special would be given 2 inputs for AR and EF, since her Counter/Reflect are still technically part of the one input as well.

It looks like Palutena is going to be a highly-defensive and zoning character this time around. It’s going to be fun to gimp recoveries with EF and get some early kills!

Did you guys use Warp-cancelling in Smash 4? If so, why would you prefer another recovery like Jump Glide to Warp? Interested in your opinions.

I use it all the time for mixing up landings, movement, and mindgames. I would rather see her keep it in lieu of Jump Glide and especially Rocket jump.

Palu's buffs are a step in the right direction toward making her relevant in the meta. Especially if that analysis is correct of dash attack coming out on frame 4 (Jesus, that's scary). Having access to both EF and AR will help with zoning and edgeguarding, and I hope the slight speed buffs to AR make it actually useful against rushdown. Ftilt may actually have uses now if it comes out earlier than her smashes, but I'm not holding my breath.

I think she's going to benefit from the overall dash buffs as well; being able to dash up and dsmash/fsmash will help with their startup being slow; they both have decent range, but were too slow to be effective. Plus, being able to utilt out of dash is another thing that can help improve her juggle and punish game. Palu has always had a good dash; she just wasn't able to make much use of it in Smash 4 with the dash mechanics and her slow framedata.

Additionally, in a more aggressive meta, dash attack and bair are going to be even more useful in shutting down aggressive approaches. It's hard to tell how Palu will fare this time around, but I think she'll do better than Smash 4 at the very least.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

My main concerns with Palutena are that her tilts would still have too much start-up lag. Almost all of her normal attacks should never have more than 8 frames of start-up lag; only her smash attacks would take longer than 8 frames, due to their greater KO potency.

As for the special moves, the frame duration for Palutena's Explosive Flame was increased with a frame speed multiplier. If the animation was playing at normal speed, the explosion would've occurred on frame 22. However, the damage output would still have to be increased so that it actually becomes a potent KO maker.

And while the next input may just be aesthetic, a good portion of Palutena's attacks should have magic effects.

 

[Ffamran]

My main concerns with Palutena are that her tilts would still have too much start-up lag. Almost all of her normal attacks should never have more than 8 frames of start-up lag; only her smash attacks would take longer than 8 frames, due to their greater KO potency.

All her ground normals are disjoints, they can't rebound which may or may not be removed in Ultimate, and they have high active frames. I can't remember if Utilt has upper body invincibility, but it does have a low profile. You're asking for those moves to have <= 8 frames of startup. Palutena's commitment could still be high because of those active frames, but her ground normals' startup speed would be on par with Cloud, Marth, and Roy's. According to PHP 's post on the previous page: https://smashboards.com/threads/palutenas-smash-4-ultimate-buffs.455354/#post-22119084, they already reduced or are wanting to reduce her normals' startup. Dash attack is around 4 frames instead of 6, Utilt is around frame 8 instead of 10, and Ftilt is around 13 frames instead of 17.

Smash 4 Palutena's tilts' startup frames were not acceptable regardless of whatever advantages they had in being disjoints, ability to not rebound, high active frames, and also decent recovery despite the high commitment. It's one thing to have a slow, but strong tilt here and there like Link's Ftilt or an extreme example, Ganondorf's Utilt relative to their other ground normals, but it's another thing to straight-up have slow, high power Smash-levels of startup. Fox's Smashes are all faster than Palutena's tilts and his Up Smash is a strong move if you land it clean. Palutena should not have had a frame 17 Ftilt and frame 14 Dtilt. Utilt's 10 frames of startup is okay, but it adds up when her other tilts are significantly slower than that in startup and/or commitment.

As of the E3 demo footage, she's now sitting at a frame 8 Utilt, frame 13 Ftilt, and also a frame 4 dash attack. I'm not sure about Dtilt, but frame 10 would be all right. That puts her closer to someone like Smash 4 Ike and a bit faster than Smash 4 Shulk which is way better than what she was before. Jab at this point being frame 8 would be okay as Link is still rocking his frame 7 jab, but it could be a frame or 2 lower. Possibly even frame 5 considering at this point, Zelda's reworked jab is similar to hers and she went from her old, inexplicably slow frame 11 jab to a frame 4 jab with an added finisher if she uses its rapid jab.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Ffamran

Still, Palutena's f-tilt should not have more start-up lag than Ganondorf's f-tilt. With Ganondorf, his f-tilt hits on frame 10, which makes sense when you consider how potent it is at making KOs. And then you look at Falco's f-tilt, which hits on frame 6, but its KO potency is considerably weaker.

It is possible to get Palutena's f-tilt to not only hit sooner than frame 6, but also make it so that it doesn't KO fighters too quickly, while still being a good damage builder. The script edit below is simply an example that I did up for Smash Wii U, which fixes up Palutena's f-tilt to be much more effective than the default revision.

AttackS3S
    Asynchronous_Timer(Frames=1)
    Set_Frame_Duration(Speed=0.2)
    Asynchronous_Timer(Frames=16)
    Set_Frame_Duration(Speed=1)
    Asynchronous_Timer(Frames=17)
    Set_Loop(Iterations=6)
    {
        Extended_Hitbox(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x3E8, Damage=1, Angle=0x16E, KBG=0x64, WBKB=0x14, BKB=0x0, Size=4.1, X=0, Y=5.5, Z=0, Effect=0x1A, Trip=0, Hitlag=0.8, SDI=0.2, Clang=0x1, Rebound=0x0, ShieldDamage=0x1, SFXLevel=0x1, SFXType=0x10, Ground/Air=0x2, Direct/Indirect=0x1, Type=0xF, X2=0, Y2=-4.2, Z2=0)
        Extended_Hitbox(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x3E8, Damage=1, Angle=0x64, KBG=0x64, WBKB=0x14, BKB=0x0, Size=4.1, X=0, Y=5.5, Z=0, Effect=0x1A, Trip=0, Hitlag=0.8, SDI=0.2, Clang=0x1, Rebound=0x0, ShieldDamage=0x1, SFXLevel=0x1, SFXType=0x10, Ground/Air=0x1, Direct/Indirect=0x1, Type=0xF, X2=0, Y2=-4.2, Z2=0)
        Synchronous_Timer(Frames=3)
        Remove_All_Hitboxes()
        Goto(Unknown=-59)
    }
    Extended_Special_Hitbox(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x3E8, Damage=6, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x70, WBKB=0x0, BKB=0x3C, Size=4.1, X=0, Y=5.5, Z=0, Effect=0x1A, Trip=0, Hitlag=1.5, SDI=1, Clang=0x1, Rebound=0x0, ShieldDamage=0x5, SFXLevel=0x2, SFXType=0x10, Ground/Air=0x3, Direct/Indirect=0x1, Type=0xF, Action=0x3F, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0xF, Unknown=0x0, Blockability=0x1, Reflectable=0x0, Absorbable=0x0, Rehit=0x0, IgnoreInvuln=0x0, Unknown=0x0, FacingRestrict=0x3, Unknown=0x0, TeamDamage=0x0, DisableHitlag=0x0, NoGFX=0x0, Flinchless=0x0, X2=0, Y2=-4.2, Z2=0)
    Synchronous_Timer(Frames=6)
    Remove_All_Hitboxes()
    Asynchronous_Timer(Frames=50)
    Set_Frame_Duration(Speed=0.48)
    Script_End()

Anyway, Palutena isn't exactly designed to make KOs as quickly as Bowser or Ganondorf, so it would make sense if her normal attacks (excluding the smash attacks, since they have the strongest KO capabilities) are quicker to strike. Now, I'm not saying that Palutena's normal attacks should be Sheik fast, but at least let them hit sooner than the attacks that have greater KO potential.

 

[Ffamran]

Still, Palutena's f-tilt should not have more start-up lag than Ganondorf's f-tilt. With Ganondorf, his f-tilt hits on frame 10, which makes sense when you consider how potent it is at making KOs. And then you look at Falco's f-tilt, which hits on frame 6, but its KO potency is considerably weaker.

It is possible to get Palutena's f-tilt to not only hit sooner than frame 6, but also make it so that it doesn't KO fighters too quickly, while still being a good damage builder. The script edit below is simply an example that I did up for Smash Wii U, which fixes up Palutena's f-tilt to be much more effective than the default revision.

Ganondorf's Ftilt only hits in front of him and is not a disjoint. Likewise, Falco's Ftilt only hits in front of him with a narrower hitbox, but can be aimed up or down. Palutena's Ftilt is a disjoint that cannot rebound and covers in front of her. They're different moves. Ganondorf's is a quick boot someone out of here which itself is a problem since jab's kind of not that useful with its frame data in Smash 4 and Falco's is quick poke. You also have to consider their movement. Smash 4 Ganondorf is one of the slowest characters, so him having slow moves without a natural disjoint, a weapon, or protection like super armor or invincibility is just asking for trouble. Falco by design, but failure in execution, is a zoner who needs fast moves to create space since compared to other zoners, he is not as mobile horizontally.

Triple D's Ftilt is frame 12, Ike's is frame 13, Link's is frame 15, Shulk's is frame 12, and Zelda's is frame 13. Should theirs be around frame 8? Zelda's is the only one I'm not sure if it's a disjoint, but it has transcendent priority. For the most part, they're all spacing moves and as noted with Zelda, disjointed spacing moves. Link's doubles as an anti-air as well since he slashes down and I believe is the strongest out of all of them. The others can kill decent, but Link's kills earlier. For Smash 4, the closest move for Palutena would be Triple D's as they're both multi-hits with high active frames, although, 1.1.0 apparently removed its rehit rate. The only difference was that Palutena's Ftilt was frame 17 and because of its high active frames, forced her into a move with 68 total frames to Triple D's 49.

In Palutena's introductory video, her Ftilt is around frame 12 to 13 and it looks like it animates faster than in Smash 4. If so, the active frames are lower, but her commitment would be lower than in Smash 4 making it more comparable to the other spacing Ftilts. Hers would mainly differ in that it hits twice and has higher active frames which with the lower startup, I could see being used to catch landings and act as another anti-air option.

Anyway, Palutena isn't exactly designed to make KOs as quickly as Bowser or Ganondorf, so it would make sense if her normal attacks (excluding the smash attacks, since they have the strongest KO capabilities) are quicker to strike. Now, I'm not saying that Palutena's normal attacks should be Sheik fast, but at least let them hit sooner than the attacks that have greater KO potential.

And they're looking like they're faster? Except for her tilts in Smash 4, Palutena's moves range from average to fast relative to both her having disjoint moves and regular moves like Fair and Dair. The developers are aiming to make things faster and they are not going to ignore their perplexing decisions for Palutena's tilts as evident in her introductory video showing her with a faster Utilt and Ftilt in startup and total frames. Smashes they could keep them as being slow because most Smashes are risky in some way and Palutena's special in regards to her Up Smash having very high vertical range, but other than speeding up her tilts to more average startup and maybe her jab, Palutena's all right outside of numbers stuff like maybe Down Smash shouldn't be 1 active frame for its clean hit or whatever move should do more damage on top of the increased damage numbers for everyone.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Triple D's Ftilt is frame 12, Ike's is frame 13, Link's is frame 15, Shulk's is frame 12, and Zelda's is frame 13. Should theirs be around frame 8?

Ike's f-tilt hits rather hard, and is a potent KO maker, so it would have to have longer start-up. And of course, Ike is one of the heavier fighters.

In a similar manner, Link's f-tilt and Shulk's f-tilt are strong enough to warrant having longer start-up lag as well, and their weight is set to above average levels.

As for Zelda, as of version 1.1.5, her f-tilt hits on frame 10, instead of frame 12; now tied with Bowser, whose f-tilt also hits on frame 10. However, unlike the other fighters you've mentioned, she's a lightweight fighter, and one who probably needed the start-up lag reduction.

For Smash 4, the closest move for Palutena would be Triple D's as they're both multi-hits with high active frames, although, 1.1.0 apparently removed its rehit rate. The only difference was that Palutena's Ftilt was frame 17 and because of its high active frames, forced her into a move with 68 total frames to Triple D's 49.

The sad part about this story is that Dedede's f-tilt not only hits sooner, but since it also kept its looping hits (which rehit more frequently, even before Palutena's f-tilt lost its looping properties), it's far more efficient than Palutena's f-tilt, which lacks any kind of KO potency to make up for losing its looping hits, and for having one of the longest start-up periods of any f-tilt.

If KO potency isn't the purpose of Palutena's f-tilt, then it shouldn't be so slow in execution. The f-tilt's start-up reduction in Ultimate is a good start, but chances are, hitting on frame 12 or 13 might not be good enough if it doesn't regain its looping hitboxes, or its knockback still isn't strong enough to be a potent KO maker.

 

[Hydde]

Palus Ftilt definitely needs revision first than any other of her moves. Is the single tilt that almost breaks her

 

[JackyT]

Hello,

i have a question, are we sure that the reflector and the counter are merged in the down-B? Because i've watched and rewatched the 20 seconds clip and it looks like 2 different moves to me. It looks like she uses the counter against Luigi and then very quickly uses the reflector against Mewtwo. Was it stated somewhere that they merged the 2 moves?

 

[Poopyhead]

Hello,

i have a question, are we sure that the reflector and the counter are merged in the down-B? Because i've watched and rewatched the 20 seconds clip and it looks like 2 different moves to me. It looks like she uses the counter against Luigi and then very quickly uses the reflector against Mewtwo. Was it stated somewhere that they merged the 2 moves?

Yes, in the E3 presentation they said her down special is now both a counter and a reflector.

 

[JackyT]

Yes, in the E3 presentation they said her down special is now both a counter and a reflector.

I see! Thanks for the quick reply

wow it definitely looks faster now!! Good stuff

 

[SS2000]

In the video the narrator said Palutena's special moves have been streamlined while the subtitle said she "has a set special attack for each move". That latter part makes it sound like she's being given a set move set of just four special moves. What did the Japanese version say? (I'm trying to hold the ever slightest glimmer of hope that maybe it's not like I'm predicting lol) It seems customization moves are going bye bye which means she'll be losing the most. From what's seen so far, I'm expecting it'll be autoreticle for neutral, explosive flame for side, the counter/reflector for down, and probably warp for up. Of the seven completely lost moves, I think I'll miss lightweight the most.

Wild imagination how how I wish her moves could work: Combine the three up specials so she causes an explosion as she disappears and enters gliding state if reappearing in the air. Tap B to do autoreticle, hold it to do explosive flame, and tap repeatedly real fast to do heavenly light. Super speed could be the side B that happens on the ground while angelic missile happens in the air. Make it so pressing left or right immediately after pressing down B makes her send a reflector in that direction even if a projectile hasn't connected, and immedately pressing up instead could do celestial fireworks. And lightweight could be one of the many ideas for an application of that fourth unused taunt button, press down on D pad to use it, and it could be given a longer recharge time like a whopping sixty seconds to keep it from being too abused. There's no way a please-everybody-solution like that would ever be taken, though. lol It'll likely just be the four moves I predicted above.

 

[Murlough]

Palus Ftilt definitely needs revision first than any other of her moves. Is the single tilt that almost breaks her

Yeah, have we seen if they made it multihit yet? I haven't actually seen the attack land and it would probably still be a super situational attack even as a multihit, but at least it would have a use then.

Other than Ftilt, I legit got everything I wanted for Palutena in Ultimate so I can't complain. As long as her frame data is decent I think she'll end up in at least midtier.

Frame data was her worst enemy in 4. Hopefully, now that everyone is faster it'll balance out somewhat.

 

[meleebrawler]

Yeah, have we seen if they made it multihit yet? I haven't actually seen the attack land and it would probably still be a super situational attack even as a multihit, but at least it would have a use then.

Other than Ftilt, I legit got everything I wanted for Palutena in Ultimate so I can't complain. As long as her frame data is decent I think she'll end up in at least midtier.

Frame data was her worst enemy in 4. Hopefully, now that everyone is faster it'll balance out somewhat.

Two hits, like it was in Smash 4. First hit sets up for the second. Knockback values are up in the air, but can potentially set up an Explosive Flame.

Edit: The changes to airdodges might be better for autoreticle and explosive flame than we realize. Opponents can't spam them so the former fails to lock-on, and you can potentially catch opponents using the moving airdodge or jump to try and avoid the flame with your speed. It helps that a lot of Palutena's moves can knock the opponent in Explosive Flame's position.

 

[SethTheMage]

https://youtu.be/L93H7YC-83o

Could someone please analyze the framedata on Palutena's fsmash (found at around 9:29 in this video)? I'd do it myself, but I dunno how to frame advance. Thank you in advance.

EDIT: Nvm. Checked the post on the previous page.

 

[Necro'lic]

Ffamran

Still, Palutena's f-tilt should not have more start-up lag than Ganondorf's f-tilt. With Ganondorf, his f-tilt hits on frame 10, which makes sense when you consider how potent it is at making KOs. And then you look at Falco's f-tilt, which hits on frame 6, but its KO potency is considerably weaker.

It is possible to get Palutena's f-tilt to not only hit sooner than frame 6, but also make it so that it doesn't KO fighters too quickly, while still being a good damage builder. The script edit below is simply an example that I did up for Smash Wii U, which fixes up Palutena's f-tilt to be much more effective than the default revision.

AttackS3S
    Asynchronous_Timer(Frames=1)
    Set_Frame_Duration(Speed=0.2)
    Asynchronous_Timer(Frames=16)
    Set_Frame_Duration(Speed=1)
    Asynchronous_Timer(Frames=17)
    Set_Loop(Iterations=6)
    {
        Extended_Hitbox(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x3E8, Damage=1, Angle=0x16E, KBG=0x64, WBKB=0x14, BKB=0x0, Size=4.1, X=0, Y=5.5, Z=0, Effect=0x1A, Trip=0, Hitlag=0.8, SDI=0.2, Clang=0x1, Rebound=0x0, ShieldDamage=0x1, SFXLevel=0x1, SFXType=0x10, Ground/Air=0x2, Direct/Indirect=0x1, Type=0xF, X2=0, Y2=-4.2, Z2=0)
        Extended_Hitbox(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x3E8, Damage=1, Angle=0x64, KBG=0x64, WBKB=0x14, BKB=0x0, Size=4.1, X=0, Y=5.5, Z=0, Effect=0x1A, Trip=0, Hitlag=0.8, SDI=0.2, Clang=0x1, Rebound=0x0, ShieldDamage=0x1, SFXLevel=0x1, SFXType=0x10, Ground/Air=0x1, Direct/Indirect=0x1, Type=0xF, X2=0, Y2=-4.2, Z2=0)
        Synchronous_Timer(Frames=3)
        Remove_All_Hitboxes()
        Goto(Unknown=-59)
    }
    Extended_Special_Hitbox(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x3E8, Damage=6, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x70, WBKB=0x0, BKB=0x3C, Size=4.1, X=0, Y=5.5, Z=0, Effect=0x1A, Trip=0, Hitlag=1.5, SDI=1, Clang=0x1, Rebound=0x0, ShieldDamage=0x5, SFXLevel=0x2, SFXType=0x10, Ground/Air=0x3, Direct/Indirect=0x1, Type=0xF, Action=0x3F, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0xF, Unknown=0x0, Blockability=0x1, Reflectable=0x0, Absorbable=0x0, Rehit=0x0, IgnoreInvuln=0x0, Unknown=0x0, FacingRestrict=0x3, Unknown=0x0, TeamDamage=0x0, DisableHitlag=0x0, NoGFX=0x0, Flinchless=0x0, X2=0, Y2=-4.2, Z2=0)
    Synchronous_Timer(Frames=6)
    Remove_All_Hitboxes()
    Asynchronous_Timer(Frames=50)
    Set_Frame_Duration(Speed=0.48)
    Script_End()

Anyway, Palutena isn't exactly designed to make KOs as quickly as Bowser or Ganondorf, so it would make sense if her normal attacks (excluding the smash attacks, since they have the strongest KO capabilities) are quicker to strike. Now, I'm not saying that Palutena's normal attacks should be Sheik fast, but at least let them hit sooner than the attacks that have greater KO potential.

I really want to know how you managed to do this coding stuff. You said you tested it, right? Where were you able to do that?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I really want to know how you managed to do this coding stuff. You said you tested it, right? Where were you able to do that?

You have to use certain hacking exploits on your Wii U system. It's not a good idea to talk about it here, so you should probably refer to GameBanana for such topics.

 

[kendikong]

I am worried for this character. Most likely she lost her grab kill confirms so she definitely needs a buff in her kill options to be good.

 

[OhMyBanana54]

One thing I’m very excited to try out is her running jab because it was one of her best moves in neutral and maybe it can be used as a safe approaching tool now that shields have more endlag.

The uniform landing lag reduction is more than welcome too. Maybe bair and Dair will be safe on shield this time. Maybe we’ll even see drag down up air.

 

[SethTheMage]

I'd love it if nair could autocancel from a shorthop. It would be a great approach tool in that case, and make up for any deficiencies in her ground game.

 

[KamuiHype]

Video that goes over a bunch of Palutena changes that are apparent atm.

 

[meleebrawler]

Those sparkles emanating from her foot after dair are odd. It'd be cool if it was some lingering hitbox.

 

[Descended Gaia]

She's already a lot viable from both the buffs on her moves and the indirect buffs with new techniques in the game, and these are just trailers and directs. Up-smash (if it's still the massive pillar of light) can be used to catch people in their air dodges and the magnet field at the edge of the stage have been nerfed to potentially make Palutena's up-smash to be able to land a successful hit. Up-tilt and F-tilt have been given a decent buff so I could dare say that the reverse dash to f-tilt or slide to up-tilt technique can be used better (these techniques are pretty native at the Japan community) Dash-Attack potentially has more range and the invincibility frames are probably coming out a lot more faster. F-tilt to EF is probably a confirmed combo. Palutena's Warp Ledge-Canceling technique is a lot more useful due to the default speed up in the SSBU game style. F-Smash looks a bit more faster. . .well that's what I see, but we're still in the dark for the D-Smash and frame-data for her D-tilt. Unfortunately, we can't gimp recoveries liked we used to with Reflect Barrier, but AR can potentially make up for that as well as the 'hitboxed' recoveries with Counter and such. We don't have enough information but I can safely say that the knockback on Counter is increased. Dodging too much is also punishable so I'm guessing the good ol' Warp Ledge Canceling can come in handy at the right place and time. Her Dair, Bair, Uair(possible), Fair, and maybe possible even Nair are a lot more safer in short-hopping. Uair (I may be wrong) seems to have less start-up lag. EF and AR are potential punish moves for the Air dodges.

So in summary she's a lot more better on basic moves, but I would've definitely preferred trashing Auto-Reticle and replacing it with lightweight (like Shulk's Monado Arts). I kinda understand why Superspeed and the other customs were gone, but Lightweight was without a doubt one of the best customs in the SSB4 game. So, we might be looking at a Mid-Tier Palutena or maybe (crossing my fingers for this) Upper-Tier Palutena if all the other unknown moves are properly buffed.

 

[Wonkit]

Two minor things in that video to correct.

1. The startup time for D-Air hasn't changed. It's still frame 10
   
   Spoiler
2. The startup time for Dash Attack hasn't changed either
   
   Spoiler
   • You might be wondering why I listed this frame as the first frame of her dash attack
     Spoiler
   • This is because in Smash 4, the first frame of her Dash Attack is indistinguishable from from dash animation as seen below
     
     Spoiler
   • Something to note though is that the endlag has definitely been buffed. Even with the hitlag from hitting Ike, Palu was able to act out of dash attack on frame 52. In comparison, Palu's Dash Attack has a FAF of 52. According to Ruben's calculator, Dash Attack has 7 frames of hitlag in Smash 4. If we assume that the hitlag is also about 7 frames in Smash Ultimate, then the FAF for Palu's Dash Attack is actually about 45

Something else I'd like to add that wasn't in the video is that her U-Air got buffed. It now autocancels sooner in this game. In Smash 4, U-Air doesn't autocancel until frame 64. In the clip below, Palu lands on frame 60 and still autocancels. Whether or not the move actually autocancels correctly this game has yet to be seen.

Spoiler

Last bit of information. I should probably emphasize this is more speculation and should be verified later on due to the quality of the clips where Jab 1 appears. With that said, it appears that Jab is now most likely frame 3 or 4.

Spoiler: Moon Clip

Spoiler: Stage Merge Clip

In the Moon clip, Palutena is heavily obscured by both Samus and Shovel Knight so getting an exact number is impossible. However, we can notice that Palutena is relatively immobile before she Jabs. In Smash 4, due to her jab being frame 8, she has quite a bit of windup before she attacks as seen below

Spoiler

However, there seems to be little to no windup before she jabs in the moon clip. This can just barely be seen both through above Samus's shield.

Spoiler

Sorry for the low quality gif by the way. Didn't feel like going through the same effort for counting the frames as I did for the other attacks.

This seems to suggest that her Jab is extremely fast now. However, I could be wrong as the clip is relatively low quality.

The only other clip where we see Jab is in the stage morph section. Unfortunately, the clip itself is sped up so it's impossible to get an accurate frame count. However, we can take a guess. The game seems to sped up by a factor of 2 or 3. Slowing down the video to 1/4th of its speed makes the game too slow.

Let's assume that that the video is sped up 3x. This means each image in the following gif would be approximately 3 frames in game.

Spoiler

• Frame 1 - Palu Dashes in
• Frame 4 - Palu cancels dash
• Frame 7 - The startup frames for Jab. If you look at Palu's left leg, it steps forward, suggesting that it is the actually the startup
• Frame 10 - Jab comes out

From the both of these, it looks like Jab is muuuuch faster than it is in Smash 4. Like I said though, both of these clips are pretty incomplete and should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Descended Gaia]

• Frame 1 - Palu Dashes in
• Frame 4 - Palu cancels dash
• Frame 7 - The startup frames for Jab. If you look at Palu's left leg, it steps forward, suggesting that it is the actually the startup
• Frame 10 - Jab comes out

From the both of these, it looks like Jab is muuuuch faster than it is in Smash 4. Like I said though, both of these clips are pretty incomplete and should be taken with a grain of salt.[/QUOTE]

Damn, that's scary. Perfect Pivot jab seems to be a lot more viable and jab in general seems more safer and can lead up to grab and throw combo strings. Too bad that Palutena's grab-confirms are probably nerfed to oblivion.

 

[Wonkit]

Perfect Pivot jab seems to be a lot more viable

Too bad they removed Perfect Pivots. RIP.

Too bad that Palutena's grab-confirms are probably nerfed to oblivion.

Yeah if Marth is anything to go off of, I'm not sure if Palu is keeping hers. If that's truly the case, Palu's ground game might be even worse than it is in Smash 4.

 

[meleebrawler]

Too bad they removed Perfect Pivots. RIP.



Yeah if Marth is anything to go off of, I'm not sure if Palu is keeping hers. If that's truly the case, Palu's ground game might be even worse than it is in Smash 4.

Buffs!? Quick, think of an imaginary nerf to remain pessimistic!

Just being able to do any tilt out of a dash improves her ground game a lot. You can run up and space with dtilt and catch landings with utilt. Course, we still need more info on her grabs and smashes to get a full picture.

 

[Wonkit]

Buffs!? Quick, think of an imaginary nerf to remain pessimistic!

Just being able to do any tilt out of a dash improves her ground game a lot. You can run up and space with dtilt and catch landings with utilt. Course, we still need more info on her grabs and smashes to get a full picture.

First of all, I only said her her ground game might be worse if her jab followups got removed, which isn't an unreasonable thing to speculate considering Marth and Zelda both lost theirs (I heard Mewtwo's got removed as well, but I'd probably have to look more into that).

Yes you're right. In a vacuum, her ground game has been buffed. Her tilts are faster now and it looks like she has a frame 3 or 4 jab.

But my opinion, in the context of the rest of the cast, it's a nerf overall. We gain far less than rest of the cast.

As you said, we gain a few things. Catching landings with U-Tilt is great, I won't deny that. We'll also be able to space with D-Tilt assuming it's relatively lagless like Smash 4 (we haven't seen any footage of it after all). However, that's about all we got. What have other characters gotten?

Sheik, Mac, Marth, Pika, Mewtwo, Cloud, and so many other characters get new approach options out of a dash. More safe pokes, more combo starters, more juggling tools, etc.

Our new tools out of dash are still pretty limited. Despite being faster in Ultimate, they're still relatively slow compared to the rest of the cast. The new shielding mechanics will likely hurt U-Tilt and F-Tilt since it hurts multihits in general. Plus, I don't think we're going to actually get anything off of our tilts (unless they buffed the knockback to kill?).


Of course in the end, this is all just speculation. We've barely seen any footage of her in action. Maybe they'll make some crazy change to her? All I know is, I'm probably still playing her in Smash Ultimate for better and for worse as long as she's still fun to play.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

What if this was possible?
Jab-jab-grab-down throw-forward air-neutral B-down tilt-up air-up air
I think it's possible on certain maps in Smash 4 as a reset. But is it possible in ultimate considering he lag buffs (and speed buffs to Plautena)?

 

[Wonkit]

With the most recent trove of footage, here's what we've found so far. I'll start off with the bad news

Bad New:

• Jab Starting Frames correction

  • it appears that Jab is now most likely frame 3 or 4.

  • Remember when I said this? Well I was wrong. There was a twitter clip that showed off Palu's jab multiple times.
    
    
    
    At a first glance, this seems alright. It's 4 frames after all. Then you realize that the footage is 30fps. This means the we're seeing approximately half the frames, meaning we'd have to double what we see from 4 frames to 8 frames. Note that the clip shows her jabbing multiple times here, as well as here and here. If that wasn't enough, here's another clip on Nairo's stream showing her jab.
    
    In addition, Okamu (not sure how to mention on Smashboards) and I went through the moon clip and realized the error I made in that I didn't count the frames prior due to jab having a new animation.
    
    Here is how it should look like (credits to Okamu for making this graphic):
    
    Spoiler
    
    In addition to that, here's a gif I made that also visualizes her Jab.
    
    Spoiler
    
    So it's safe to say that Jab is still frame 8.
    
• Jab Combo Starter
  • Odds are is that it's most likely gone entirely. Due to a universal change, low knockback moves do not put the opponent into the air. Instead, they are stuck in a new grounded state. This is true for Palu's jab as well (link to the tweet). This means one of Palu's most significant grounded options and combo starters is most likely gone.

Neutral News:​

• Explosive Flame is roughly the same as Smash 4
• DTilt still has 13 frames of startup from Smash 4
  • No gif, but it's here at 9 seconds in on the clip of Nairo's stream
• USmash has the same startup

Good News:​

• Jab still looks Spammable (?)
  

  Left side of the screen: it seems that you can’t pivot grab through shield anymore :< pic.twitter.com/96hJjxfgWg

  — Elira (@_Elira_) November 4, 2018

  
  Question mark being because it whiffs. No idea if it's the same if it hits
  
  
  
• DThrow combos are still in allegedly
  • No footage yet, but according to this thread on reddit keeping track of changes, Palu still has her DThrow combos.
• NAir is stronger (?)
  • Same reddit thread as above. I'm slightly skeptical however since Palu is such an obscure character, people often don't know her base kit (as condescending as that may sound). People always seemed to be surprised when NAir killed in Smash 4. The DThrow change (or lack of) is much more obvious.

 

[Luviant X]

Do we know what her Up B is or is it the same as Smash 4?

 

[Luminario]

Do we know what her Up B is or is it the same as Smash 4?

Yeah it's Warp again.

 

[Descended Gaia]

You can barely see it in the clip...but I think Palu still has her Grab Confirms. The footage is low quality and I was barely able to trace Palu in the battle, but I think she did Dthrow up to Uair. I might be wrong though...

 

[SethTheMage]

You can barely see it in the clip...but I think Palu still has her Grab Confirms. The footage is low quality and I was barely able to trace Palu in the battle, but I think she did Dthrow up to Uair. I might be wrong though...

I watched the clip, and Inkling was able to double jump before uair came out; she double jumped into uair. Changes to airdodge could help, though, as it's now easier to keep opponents in disadvantage. I just wish we knew DI, as I can't tell if dthrow sends opponents at a more vertical angle or not.

One thing I did pick up on (could be placebo, but I don't think so) is how different nair looks. It seems to end way faster, and it is easier to escape. I dunno if it can be fully executed from a shorthop now, but it looks to be just as bad of a landing option.

 

[Anop]

With the most recent trove of footage, here's what we've found so far. I'll start off with the bad news

Bad New:

• Jab Starting Frames correction
  • 
    
  • Remember when I said this? Well I was wrong. There was a twitter clip that showed off Palu's jab multiple times.
    
    
    
    At a first glance, this seems alright. It's 4 frames after all. Then you realize that the footage is 30fps. This means the we're seeing approximately half the frames, meaning we'd have to double what we see from 4 frames to 8 frames. Note that the clip shows her jabbing multiple times here, as well as here and here. If that wasn't enough, here's another clip on Nairo's stream showing her jab.
    
    In addition, Okamu (not sure how to mention on Smashboards) and I went through the moon clip and realized the error I made in that I didn't count the frames prior due to jab having a new animation.
    
    Here is how it should look like (credits to Okamu for making this graphic):
    
    Spoiler
    
    In addition to that, here's a gif I made that also visualizes her Jab.
    
    Spoiler
    
    So it's safe to say that Jab is still frame 8.
• Jab Combo Starter
  • Odds are is that it's most likely gone entirely. Due to a universal change, low knockback moves do not put the opponent into the air. Instead, they are stuck in a new grounded state. This is true for Palu's jab as well (link to the tweet). This means one of Palu's most significant grounded options and combo starters is most likely gone.

Neutral News:​

• Explosive Flame is roughly the same as Smash 4
• DTilt still has 13 frames of startup from Smash 4
  • No gif, but it's here at 9 seconds in on the clip of Nairo's stream
• USmash has the same startup

Good News:​

• Jab still looks Spammable (?)
  

  Left side of the screen: it seems that you can’t pivot grab through shield anymore :< pic.twitter.com/96hJjxfgWg

  — Elira (@_Elira_) November 4, 2018

  
  Question mark being because it whiffs. No idea if it's the same if it hits
  
  
  
• DThrow combos are still in allegedly
  • No footage yet, but according to this thread on reddit keeping track of changes, Palu still has her DThrow combos.
• NAir is stronger (?)
  • Same reddit thread as above. I'm slightly skeptical however since Palu is such an obscure character, people often don't know her base kit (as condescending as that may sound). People always seemed to be surprised when NAir killed in Smash 4. The DThrow change (or lack of) is much more obvious.

Oh no! So she seems more nerfed than buffed that’s kinda sad

 

[Wonkit]

Oh no! So she seems more nerfed than buffed that’s kinda sad

Not at all. Almost everything has received buffs across the board.

NAir has significantly less landing lag now. It looks like it's less than 10 frames, which may make it a viable landing options as well as an OoS option that Palu desperately needed. On top of that, it looks like landing with NAir pops them up right above Palu, which may lead to a guaranteed UTilt or even another NAir.

FTilt links together properly, starts frame 13 instead of 17, and has a LOT less endlag. On top of that, there have been reports that it's significantly stronger, so it may be a kill option

UTilt is frame 8 (vs frame 10), has less endlag, and can be used out of a dash. This one is particularly important since her UTilt is one of the best anti airs in the game. It shifts her hurtbox ridiculously low

BAir has 10 frames of landing lag vs 16 in smash 4

Explosive Flame Received a damage buff overall which may let it kill significantly earlier (for reference, it kills Bayo at 158% on FD according to the calculator). Also, FAF has been lowered by 5-15 frames (it was originally 90 though so it's still slow)

Autoreticle comes out 5 frames earlier. This move in particular will be good for unstaling FAir / BAir from across the stage since hitting shield stales other moves.

On top of that, Palu is one of the few characters to keep her grab combos, one of the fewer to have a grab combo that lasts THAT long.


I'm still shaky on how good she may actually be. She still has a bad ground game (even worse with Jab -> Grab gone) in a game that emphasizes grounded options. But to say she's been nerfed overall isn't really looking at the whole picture. Sure she may be worse relative to the rest of the cast (or not? It's way too early to make state viability), but she's definitely been buffed more than nerfed. We'll just have to adapt to not having Jab.

You can barely see it in the clip...but I think Palu still has her Grab Confirms. The footage is low quality and I was barely able to trace Palu in the battle, but I think she did Dthrow up to Uair. I might be wrong though...

There's no confirmation that DThrow UAir is still a thing. We've yet to see it with good DI (they DI'd in)

 

[Rran]

This video seems to be the best so far at showcasing Palutena's moveset:

 

[Re4gNarsil]

Yeah, based on the 3 videos of game footage we have her tilts definitely have less startup and end lag; her jab to me looks the same, as does her n-air. Smash attacks might be slightly quicker, but honestly they look pretty much the same to me. Autoreticle finally looks like it might be decent for a change; does anyone know or have theories into what determines what range Explosive Flame detonates at? It definitely varies, but I'm not sure it's clear why.

As for her D-throw, it's at least as good as Smash 4 if not a little better, but the universal lack of hitstun might still make d-throw up-air not possible. One of my big questions is her dash attack: do we know if invincibility starts at frame 4 if the attack connects on that frame? It'd be a pity if they moved invincibility to frame 6 so it didn't protect her throughout the entire hitbox.