Palutena's Smash 4 -> Ultimate Buffs?

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#1
As of right now, I already saw what seem to be a few buffs to Palutena:

  • Tilts seem to be faster from her fighter video
  • Neutral and Up B seems the same, but her side B is explosive flame?
  • Her Down Special works as a reflector and a counter
What else does she need to be viable?
 

Luminario

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#2
I'm kinda sad they combined the reflector with the counter, I liked the barrier that hovered for a second, even if it was useless in that form.
I still think a stance move would have been better, but at least we got even more ranged coverage. This probably confirms all customs are cut anyway.

In order to find out if she's viable we just have to wait til she's playable. There's no wy of knowing cause all we got were snippets of staged gameplay to make the charaters look good.
 

Planet Zeb(es)~

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#3
Up-tilt still looked super situational to me. It looks like an-anti air straight out of 2d-fighter. Unfortunately that isnt really going to work here. F-tilt looked a tad faster though?

I guess having a super duper counter is cool, and explosive flame is better than nothing. Shame about no lightweight/super-speed but that's life. Hoping for some good buffs so she isnt **** anymore lol
:061:
 

Luminario

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#4
Up-tilt still looked super situational to me. It looks like an-anti air straight out of 2d-fighter. Unfortunately that isnt really going to work here. F-tilt looked a tad faster though?

I guess having a super duper counter is cool, and explosive flame is better than nothing. Shame about no lightweight/super-speed but that's life. Hoping for some good buffs so she isnt **** anymore lol
:061:
I feel like Super Speed + Lightweight might have contributed to her terrible stats. Having a speed buff/sweeping hitbox probably meant something else had to compensate for such strong moves. Now that they're gone and she seems to be much more defensively oriented with Autoreticle and Explosive Flame and a counter reflect combo probably means she has a little more breathing room when it comes to things like endlag.
 

Eisal

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#6
Really hope her lag is less noticeable.

Her biggest drawback was the large delays/long frames on the majority of her attacks. I hope to see this being fixed.

Sad to see Super Speed or Lightweight not being her original abilities but I guess they were just too strong.

Explosive Flame has a spot still.
 

CodeBlue_

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#7
Palutena was one of my most wanted characters in Smash 4. I hope she got the changes that make her feel like a good character again.

Betting on her and Zelda being good character s is a dangerous game that I am playing though. I guess this is the struggle of wanting to main those two.

:4palutena::4palutena:Please Sakurai:4palutena::4palutena:
 

PHP

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#8
Hello it's been awhile

from footage I've seen there are a few things that are hard to miss and I also have speculation

There's a short clip showcasing her tilts, specials, and a few normal (link here: https://youtu.be/0yD_B4ZkdME). Tilts appear to be faster in start-up but the cool down looks more or less the same (subject to change as the character could change during development).

=========================
down B appears to be a parry type move instead of a counter or a reflector hinted that she strikes the same pose before using both moves (same pose as her current down b counter) , I speculate you will NOT get to chose which one you get to use and the game will chose which to use in any given situation (ex: if you get hit with a strike move = counter else if hit with a projectile = reflect) though we probably will not be able to freely set out a barrier like before it does seem like the start up of the move is EXTREMELY early (I'm talking frame 3-5 early) unlike the dreadful frame 11 counter and frame 8 reflect we had before.

however as a draw back reflect doesn't linger near as long it used to and counter could potentially deal less damage (not like it mattered the thing couldn't kill anyways). Due to it being a parry (if it is) it can also be baited
=========================

Another thing I speculate is since custom moves appear to be scrapped, they could also do this for Palutena's other B specials. It was not specified weather Explosive flame was side B or neutral B with a hold button press Autoreticle and Explosive Flame could very well be mapped to neutral B while 2 other specials could be mapped to side B. Keep in mind that her main appeal was having many types of special moves she could very well have 2 neutral B, 2 side B, 2 down B, and 2 up B, each move depending if you hold the button or light tap it bar down b (if it's a parry like I think it is)

=========================

As for anything else regarding normal or specials we do not know. There was a clip of her using f-smash which is still the same and another clip of her using fair (also the same). I should mention in the linked vid her dash attack animation seems to have changed as it hits before her shield goes up, but that could be because the game is unfinished. I fear if it's accurate to the current animation dash attack will not me invincible in the early frames but only the late frames instead which is pretty bad , but we'll have to wait and see
 

Eisal

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#9
I don’t think she’s ever going to reach a spot beyond mid-tier, but one can only hope that more, smaller fixes will go into the game for her between now and December.

Dash-cancelling with attack can be quite big for her. Also the help with short-hop attacks (I guess it works with b-air?) is a nice change that can be an indirect buff.

She now looks to have even greater zoning potential with auto reticle as well as explosive flame. She seems heavily defensive in many ways which isn’t always bad.

I don’t know if her d-throw combos are still in? Those were BnB.
 

PHP

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#10
(Sause) https://youtu.be/L93H7YC-83o?t=14m52s
Noticed changes:
Autoreticle lock on marker changes colour from yellow to green then to red. atm I do not know what this means at all. It COULD mean that you're able to move the reticle while it's green before it locks and turns red and fires but we'll have to wait and see.


(counting frame by frame 60fps 1080p)

up-tilt: start-up frame 10 > 8

F-tilt: start-up frame 16 > 13 (Finally faster than her smash attacks)

dash attack: start-up frame 6 > 4 (WHAT?!?!) (Kurogane also mentioned it looked faster)

autoreticle lock on appears to be exactly the same at frame 8, but the shots of light (staring from the frame the marker turns red) comes out 17 frames after meaning the first projectile start-up frame 29 > ~24

explosive flame appears to be active starting frame 28

fair and f-smash (showcased in the pokemon trainer section of the vid) appear unchanged frame data wise

counter/reflect (parry): start-up frame 11/8 > 6. and cooldown of the counter attack appears to be frame 56 > 28 which is a drastic difference

moves that have not been seen yet:
bair, dair, uair, downS, upS, upB(shocking), and grabs
 

CodeBlue_

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#12
(Sause) https://youtu.be/L93H7YC-83o?t=14m52s
up-tilt: start-up frame 10 > 8

F-tilt: start-up frame 16 > 13 (Finally faster than her smash attacks)
Ftilt being faster in start-up than Greninja's Forward Air is a blessing.

dash attack: start-up frame 6 > 4 (WHAT?!?!) (Kurogane also mentioned it looked faster)
Excuse me what?

if this move has similar ending lag to Smash 4, this would be crazy considering it is invincible.

I hope there's gameplay showing her other smash attacks, especially up smash. I would love it to have better start up frames.
 
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PHP

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#15
Actually, you can see Palu's dair in Robin's footage.

Counting the frames from that it looks like frame 7 it's active, (starts as soon as a spiracle is visable > her foot is directly under her) , and it looks like it has more than 1 active frame from the looks of it
 

Rran

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#16
Obviously we know very little of how Palutena will actually play in Smash Ultimate, but I really hope Sakurai has given her more to work with than Explosive Flame. Of all her custom specials, Lightweight and Superspeed are by far the most popular it seems, so I was/ still am hoping that they'll somehow find their way into the Goddess' moveset.
Also... I'm not entirely sure how I feel about assigning Reflect to Down+B. Sure, combining it w/ Counter certainly makes her down special unequivocally better than it was before, but having Reflect as Side+B made her a bit more formidable against projectile users: opponents had to think twice before hurling some stanky attack as you glided in their direction!

I know, I know--I'm probably making a mountain (well, more like a modestly-sized incline) out of a molehill here, especially when we know so little about the character and the game (as well as the fact that I'm fussing over a Palutena player being required to make a single additional input hah), but nevertheless, here's me whining.
...but seriously, this isn't some huge, massive issue I have w/ the change, but rather something I simply found questionable amidst an ocean of refinements.

What say you, fellow people posters of passionate Palutena players? Problem?
 

kamus_aran

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#17
Her shield still covers her before it hits so i'm sure it still has the invisibility in early frames. Hope it still kills


IMG_5231.PNG

IMG_5233.PNG

IMG_5229.PNG
 
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Alan.64

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#18
I also would like to think that Her neutral special is both autoreticle and explosive flame depending on how long you hold the button press. And that way Side B can be super speed and something else like Angelic missile? I really hope so. What do you guys think? Is this the likely possibility? I've analysed the footage as much as possible and the animations look similar enough to be from one button press in the same special. Please tell me your thoughts and ideas, Palutena is one of my favs and hope to goddess (tee hee, im not sorry) that she rightfully gets plenty of buffs!
 

kamus_aran

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#19
That's what i think and hope too. But the fact they didn't mention both of those moves are neutral B makes me doubt it
 

Alan.64

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#20
That's what i think and hope too. But the fact they didn't mention both of those moves are neutral B makes me doubt it
Well they didn't outright say what her side special is. Her doing both right after the other make me think possibly. And no sight or mention of her up special at all either.
 

Rran

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#21
Yeah, I really like the idea of tap vs. hold to incorporate additional special attacks. And while I'm doubtful that this is how Palutena 2.0 will actually control, I'm struggling to think of a better system of inputs that'd allow for our goddess to capitalize on her uniquely created custom specials.
 

Eisal

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#22
In a dream scenario, I would love her side-b to be Super Speed. But I almost feel like the fact we haven’t heard anything about it she most likely doesn’t have it.
 

Rran

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#25
In a recent GameXplain video, Nate Bihldorff mentions wanting to add Palutena to his list of mains (the others being Mario, Captain Falcon, and Ness). While his justification for this seems to stem solely from her having a "completed" moveset (whereas in Smash 4 he struggled with which specials to use), I was elated just to hear a shoutout for our Goddess <3
 

Venraneld

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#26
I am really hoping she has Jump Glide. I felt like that move was the most fun to use. If they are combining moves, it would be awesome if her up+special was still Warp, but she goes into a glide from Jump Glide after she reappears. The distance could be reduced so that her recovery isn't insane, but I think that would be a great way to combine her up+specials.

In her character trailer, I'm not sure if her vanishing at the beginning is her Warp or just a dodge. It makes the same sound as her old dodge, so I have hope that they still haven't shown her up+special yet.
 

PHP

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#27
I am really hoping she has Jump Glide. I felt like that move was the most fun to use. If they are combining moves, it would be awesome if her up+special was still Warp, but she goes into a glide from Jump Glide after she reappears. The distance could be reduced so that her recovery isn't insane, but I think that would be a great way to combine her up+specials.

In her character trailer, I'm not sure if her vanishing at the beginning is her Warp or just a dodge. It makes the same sound as her old dodge, so I have hope that they still haven't shown her up+special yet.
That was her spot dodge shown, we have yet to show any form of up B which makes me thing they're doing something with it and it's not currently functional. I love that she distorts the area around her when she rolls/spot dodges. small detail that's cool
 

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#28
If they're going to start combine moves then let's go all out!

B - Someone mentioned tap and hold to activate autoreticle and explosive flame and I like that idea.
Side B - Side B can pull of a Bayo and change the special based on wither you're in the air or not. Angelic Missle in the air to aid recovery and Super Speed on the ground for ground movement.
Up B - Starts off with Rocket Jump and then transitions into Jump Glide
Down B - Already confirmed to be Counter and Reflect combined into one super counter.

And if that's not enough moveset combos then just buff Palutena's ground and air movement in general and say she's always under Lightweight.

Just some silly ideas and not meant to be taken seriously at all.
 

kamus_aran

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#29
This is my ideas if they're gonna start combine her moves.

B: Press B for Autoreticle just like normal. B + shield for Explosive Flame (this move will beat shield again)

Side B: Super Speed as default. Angelic Missle will activate when Super Speed is in unusable state (it's 3 seconds in Sm4sh, now it's 6 seconds in Ultimate)

Up B: Press B for Warp (to make it not difficult to platforms cancel). Hold B for Jump Glide

Down B: already confirmed, i just hope they'll give us an option to use Reflect freely
 
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Eisal

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#32
Don’t set yourself up for disappointment people. I don’t think she’s being given that many options all at the same time. Plus I have a feeling that while Ultimate seems to go more towards being developed with competitive spirit in mind, I do not think Sakurai will steer away from casual controls all that much. Palutena being given all these options depending on whether she’s in the air or on the ground—holding the B button or tapping it, will prove to be too much at once.

I’d love to be wrong, though.
 

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#33
Yeah I probably shouldn't hype myself too much but I did say they were silly ideas and probably not be implemented.
 
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#34
For me personally, I wouldn’t want any other up-special than Warp. Jump Glide is great on its own, but I don’t want to lose Warp-cancelling on ledges, as that was a way to give her more movement options in Smash 4.

Realistically, Auto-reticle and Explosive Flame are her neutral- and side-specials, respectively. I would love to be wrong and have Super Speed as her side-special, but Counter/Reflect combining was probably just to make room for EF. It’s probably unlikely that her nuetral-special would be given 2 inputs for AR and EF, since her Counter/Reflect are still technically part of the one input as well.

It looks like Palutena is going to be a highly-defensive and zoning character this time around. It’s going to be fun to gimp recoveries with EF and get some early kills!

Did you guys use Warp-cancelling in Smash 4? If so, why would you prefer another recovery like Jump Glide to Warp? Interested in your opinions.
 

Eisal

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#35
Did you guys use Warp-cancelling in Smash 4? If so, why would you prefer another recovery like Jump Glide to Warp? Interested in your opinions.
I tried to. There was a few successful attempts I managed to smash someone off the stage > warp from the middle of the stage > ledge cancel > d-air into spike

I enjoyed it, and I would never want to replace warp (despite the amount of times I have been gimped by it, by not warping where I wanted to warp, missing to grab the ledge and free-fall instead.

I would just want to keep warp as warp, and not warp > into something else.
 

PHP

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#36
For me personally, I wouldn’t want any other up-special than Warp. Jump Glide is great on its own, but I don’t want to lose Warp-cancelling on ledges, as that was a way to give her more movement options in Smash 4.

Realistically, Auto-reticle and Explosive Flame are her neutral- and side-specials, respectively. I would love to be wrong and have Super Speed as her side-special, but Counter/Reflect combining was probably just to make room for EF. It’s probably unlikely that her nuetral-special would be given 2 inputs for AR and EF, since her Counter/Reflect are still technically part of the one input as well.

It looks like Palutena is going to be a highly-defensive and zoning character this time around. It’s going to be fun to gimp recoveries with EF and get some early kills!

Did you guys use Warp-cancelling in Smash 4? If so, why would you prefer another recovery like Jump Glide to Warp? Interested in your opinions.
It's more of a defensive option. It's okay but it's not really good warp isn't even that good of a get out of pressure option because it's frame 16. At least with jump glide you can attack with it but I can see why you would prefer warp over it. Warp is the better recovery imo
 

Hydde

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#37
I would like for Palutena some changes. Palutena right now is a defensive character which simply cant play defensive because she has soo much lag and frame problems...that when you compare her with speedsters like sheik... is simply disgusting. Let her have at least some zoning with better and faster tilts.

-First of all, they need to make her Ftilt way more reliable. I know some of you said it is faster now, but it needs more tbh. Is still way too laggy/weak. it needs to be a great spacing tool, something that lets you keep pressure or keep enemies away. Right now is way too unreliable.

-Her uptilt. It looks nice, but why she needs to "bend backwards" when doindg it? it takes potential reach from her when she does that. An Utilt is supposed to cover the upper area of a character most of the time, but not in her case. SHe has no problems swinwing her rod frontally, but then she crouches when doing her Utilt.
*Let her rotate her rod above her, in a standing pose and with her arm stretched, to make it cover the area above her instead of she doing some weird limbo dance move. Make her "syphon" any enemy getting too close to her just like she does now. It could be like some "wind swirgling" around her, to let people know the hitbox in when she would syphon you.-

- Her aerial Dtilt needs more frames or bigger hitbox below her. Maybe if she swung her rod horizontally instead the verticalish way she does right now, it would help players a lot to connect it. Making the hit box bigger below her would give her good reach. Or simply scrap that animation al together and do something like Doctor Mario´s. Giving her a new a new attack with some kind of energy below her. Something more "Godly" instead of that weird rod swing.

- I would like her "Melee" counter animation to be some kind of AOE small explotion around her instead of that shield bash she does. The problem is that this counter is one of the few which has very small hitzone in front of her. Counters like Corrin´s for example, do a great job hitting everything near him and this is what i want for palutena. It can keep its actual power, it doesnt need to be as destructive as corrin´s but she deserves an AOE counter.

-Explosive flame: Make her have a hitbox with her rod when she extend ehr arm to cast the explosive flame, which will let her send any enemy in melee range INTO the explosion. That would be wonderful to set people which are in her face. As it is, the eplosive flame move is very situational because the lags it has and the situational distance you need for it to work.

Smashes: Improve the speed of all her smashes and take some cooldown from her moves. Right now they are way too slow for what they offer.

My 2 cents
 
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LordTakeo

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#38
So, what you are saying is...

"Buff everythings framdata, and hitboxes, AND give explosive flame's melee animation a hurtbox."
Gotcha. Really love the explosive flame idea tho.

I for myself would simply love bigger hitboxes in combination for some new sweetspots for stuff like her fair. Just gives her a bit more Oomph and variety, rather than just "become better".
 
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