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PAC-MAN was pretty buffed, EXCEPT for Bonus Fruit.

Kirby Latino

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 21, 2014
Messages
1
Here's all my info:

First of all, Z-Dropping combos are supposedly completely out of the picture now??.
That's like taking wobbling away from the Ice Climbers or taking Gliding away from Meta-Knight.

I've been watching videos and doing the math.
Pac-Man's Bonus-Fruit has been heavily nerfed
as far as the amount of damage they do.

This is all data from 1-on-1 battles:

Key does 13% (Used to do 15%)

Bell does 6.8% (Used to do 8%)
(The Bell data is from a 4-player free-for-all)

Galaga ------------------------------------

Melon does 11% (Used to do 12%)

Apple does 8.5% (Used to do 9%)

Orange does 6.5 (Used to do 8%)

Strawberry -------------------------------

Cherry does 3.3 (Used to do 4%)
(And it did the same amount in a 4-player Free-For-All????
So maybe the Bell does the same amount in 1-on-1 battles??)

I'm just hoping it doesn't make much of a difference, Pac's Z-drop is already a huge nerf on him, and a really big change on his play-style.
At this point I just hope he at least becomes better without specials OR that the changes aren't as drastic as I make them out to be.
Or maybe none of this matters but I thought it was important enough to point out.
 

Nu~

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Nah I agree, pacman's fruit kinda suck now. The FAF was only reduced by 3 frames so they're still too laggy to use as frequently as other projectiles, we can no longer cancel the charge into other specials (we have to jump out of it which means charging offstage is a heavy commitment now), charging doesn't make us float anymore, no z dropa, weaker damage...

It's kinda depressing
 

xDrippyx

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
Messages
17
The general theme of changes for Pac seems to be an overall buff to his normals but an overall nerf to his specials. Hydrant also seems pretty nerfed considering you can shield the water and/or clank with it. (Still not sure if enemies can clank or just Pacman) Also, the two best hydrant launch angles are gone, UAir + UTilt and Bair + Jab. There will HOPEFULLY be other easy and useful hydrant angles, but considering the overall nerfing theme I'm doubtful. Then there's trampoline. We don't really know a lot about it yet besides that it can be hit sends players into freefall if so. I can see how that could be used for some janky set ups, but overall I see it as a nerf because it'll just be another obstacle that can be dealt with by attacking it instead of something your opponent had to respect like in smash4. That's assuming it can be destroyed with enough damage since it now has hurtboxes. Granted, his side-b seems like it may have gotten a bit of a buff, but I don't think it'll be much more useful than it currently is.
HARD TO SAY how it'll all pan out. It's frustrating that Pac-man is in the demo, but has such small representation that it's almost like he's not at all, and we're just pulling what we can from his trailer video etc. like I've been doing for my other love, Dedede.
 

xzx

Smash Lord
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
1,139
Location
Sweden
Yeah it sucks that his best tool Bonus Fruit has been nerfed, it really does, but at least his not bottom tier trash anymore (it seems). He can actually deal with shields now and can be played more aggressive, something I already did. Ahem. Actually, I am going to try out the demo next Saturday at ComicCon in Stockholm, Sweden. I will gather as much info as I can (with footage if possible). I'm really curious to how the Bonus Fruits works this time around.

Also, Sinji is sitting on a lot of information on Pac-Man now, doesn't he? It would be nice of him if he could share his findings with the rest of us.
 

xDrippyx

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
Messages
17
Yeah, I've been thinking about it a lot, Pacman still has the potential to be pretty good in Ultimate, he'll just need to be played differently. It would be pretty awesome, and make up for the other nerfs on fruit charge, if the fruit themselves had better properties. I'm also really curious about his improved down air. I remember reading somewhere ( I think from Sinji) that it could have combo potential, but it for sure is improved to the point where it is useful.

I'm right there with you, I really wish Sinji was talking about Ultimate Pac-man more. Even if it's just more speculation from him. He shared quite a bit of his discoveries shortly after testing the demo, but since then he hasn't said much. I've heard him recently say on his stream that he thinks Pac-man will be high tier, but it's hard not to think he's just being overly optimistic..
Anyway, I'm excited to hear what you find out after playing the demo. If you get the chance, give his down air a good look for me?
 

xzx

Smash Lord
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"I've heard him recently say on his stream that he thinks Pac-man will be high tier." Lol, I mean, several Pac-Mains like Pepespain and Pacman9 (among others) said that Smash 4 Pac-Man was mid tier, so I never trust what other Pac-Mains say about the character's tier placement since they are not objective about the character. I literally got "hated" on (couldn't find another term for it) when explaining why Pac-Man was bottom tier, but they all were so ignorant and kept saying that Pac-Man was "not as bad as I thought he was". As of now, SSBU Pac-Man looks like to be low tier imo, but it's hard to say. Maybe even middle tier. But we have to wait and see.

Aaaanyway. I have this theory that his Dair leads to juicy stuff like Key, so I will definitely try it out.
 

xDrippyx

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
Messages
17
Mmm, yeah, with forward air having more knockback, there should be a lot of confirms off of it.
Something huge for Pac is that he could potentially have several kill confirms now, with his improved normals, used in combination with fruits. But obviously, that's me being hopeful.
 

TrendanBrendan

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Doesn't it charge slightly faster now, though? I don't know if it'd make up for the damage loss, but it's something, at least.
 

xDrippyx

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
Messages
17
Doesn't it charge slightly faster now, though? I don't know if it'd make up for the damage loss, but it's something, at least.
Yeah it does charge a bit faster now, but we're now limited to only charging while we are stationary on the ground since pacman no longer floats when charging and can't cancel into his other specials. So the fruits charge faster, but there'll be much less opportunity to safely charge them.
 

TrendanBrendan

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Yeah it does charge a bit faster now, but we're now limited to only charging while we are stationary on the ground since pacman no longer floats when charging and can't cancel into his other specials. So the fruits charge faster, but there'll be much less opportunity to safely charge them.
I just read the thread of changes. Yeah, that does stink. Hopefully with balance patches (or even just the full release) Pac can make up for it in other areas.
 
Last edited:

SmashedJAM

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 9, 2018
Messages
1
Honestly I'm a little worried that Pac won't be nearly as fun or quirky to play anymore... I loved all his weird, janky mechanics and it seems a lot of that is being heavily changed, which I've gotta admit seems like it'll make him a lot less fun to main.
 

xzx

Smash Lord
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Okay, so I tested the demo yesterday, and here are my impressions. First I'd like to just say that this was the e3 demo and not "demo 2", so I can't really have a "demo 2 Pac-Man" point of view, as I don't know what have changed from demo 1 to demo 2. With that said, I only got to play a few matches, like 10 at most, and it is kinda hard to form a solid opinion/impression of a character when you didn't had so much time to spend on it, yet alone the game itself... Furthermore, playing Smash with a Pro Controller was kinda weird, so combined with the game being new, it was hard to do some inputs and such. (Grabbing and tap-jump on, for example.) Other game specific things like how DI works and whatnot also makes things harder to gauge, but in the end I think I have just enough experience to form a personal opinion/impression on him.

Yeah, Pac-Man just sucks. Not only did they heavily nerf his Bonus Fruit, but his new up-tilt is complete trash as well (compared to his old one). Even then, his up-tilt isn't that good. (Honestly, it isn't.) You would think it is kind of like Mario's up-tilt, which scoops up the target and hits in front of him, but nope, Pac-Man's up-tilt is not like that. The hitbox is tiny and hard to hit with. Think of it as Pac-Man's up-smash, but without the scooping hitbox, and a much smaller hitbox. It feels like if you can up-tilt, you can just up-smash instead... Though I think if you catch people with it, you can juggle them for a while or create favorable situations. But the biggest draw to it is that you can't hit the Hydrant with it when you stand next to it... Speaking of Hydrant...

Oh boy. When standing next to it, you actually get pushed away from it, meaning they really don't want you to be able to up-tilt it. (Not sure if up-tilt would of hit anyway, because of its tiny hitbox.) It also felt to be dropping slower in the air and have more lag when dropped, even on the ground.

His up-special is nerfed too, which I predicted. It appears as if opponents now can power shield ("parry") it on the ground, without getting on the trampoline. (They are blocking Pac-Man's up-b hitbox.) When someone was sitting in shield, I ran up to them and used up-b on their shield, but the power shield effect triggered and they didn't bounce on the trampoline. It happened at least once to me. However, not everything is bad with the trampoline itself - it is great that it has a hurtbox now. When turned green, we all know that opponents will enter free fall from it. But Pac-Man won't, and I actually tested this! It acts like a yellow trampoline for him, turning red when he bounces off it. So that's cool!

I want to talk about his fruits a little: Cherry and Strawberry now have more active frames in the air. Same with Apple. Bell seems to stun people like 10-15% longer, but I'm unsure of it. But it felt like they were in stun longer. However, I barely had the time to connect a fully-lengthed Power Pellet to an opponent at around 100% or so, so maybe it is the same duration as in Smash 4. Galaxian and Melon seems the same to me. Same with Key. It really sucks that Melon is as weak as in Smash 4, same with Key. I hit an Inkling to 130% with the Key and Inkling didn't get KO:ed. A real bummer. But I have forgotten a fruit now, haven't I? Yes, the Orange. It really sucks. It's the most nerfed out of them all. It travels slower, disappears sooner and is much weaker. It's such a shame. It is awful.

I can confirm that Bonus Fruit doesn't stale and that you can pick it up after it hits someone/something, just as you could in Smash 4. When Z-dropping a fruit, it behaves the same as it does in Smash 4, only this time you can't pick it up. That is really unfortunate.

His Bair and Up-air are still weak (the former couldn't KO at 130% and the latter couldn't KO at 150%), I hope this is fixed in demo 2, otherwise it is going to be just like in Smash 4. His Dair however... Haha oh boy, it is really good, especially on bigger characters! It was definitely my favourite aerial of them all! It can be used in the neutral much better now and can actually lead to stuff depending on their DI. I managed to get dair to key two times, though it is hard to say if it's guaranteed. I also managed to get one dair to dash attack, but all of this Dairing needs more experimenting. His nair is nicer and fair was harder to string together, though I believe it can lead to stuff much earlier now, even the infamous fair to key.

Out of all smash attacks, his down smash stood out the most. They've really nailed it this time! It is quicker, stronger and a little bit safer now. It is a potent and legit kill move now! Finally!

His backthrow is a kill move at higher percentages now (unlike in Smash 4) and I don't even need to comment on his grab. (The hitboxes are better, no deadzones, the hand has a hitbox and it seems to have a faster start-up as well, probably frame 9-10 I believe.)

All in all, I still think Pac-Man has a long way to go to become a viable character. As I said before, I don't know what has changed about him in demo 2, but in this demo he is still trash. Not as trash as Smash 4 (bottom tier trash), but low tier trash at best. (Though I still think he is bottom tier in this demo.)

Here's hoping he becomes much better in the release version.
 

xDrippyx

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
Messages
17
Okay, so I tested the demo yesterday, and here are my impressions. First I'd like to just say that this was the e3 demo and not "demo 2", so I can't really have a "demo 2 Pac-Man" point of view, as I don't know what have changed from demo 1 to demo 2. With that said, I only got to play a few matches, like 10 at most, and it is kinda hard to form a solid opinion/impression of a character when you didn't had so much time to spend on it, yet alone the game itself... Furthermore, playing Smash with a Pro Controller was kinda weird, so combined with the game being new, it was hard to do some inputs and such. (Grabbing and tap-jump on, for example.) Other game specific things like how DI works and whatnot also makes things harder to gauge, but in the end I think I have just enough experience to form a personal opinion/impression on him.

Yeah, Pac-Man just sucks. Not only did they heavily nerf his Bonus Fruit, but his new up-tilt is complete trash as well (compared to his old one). Even then, his up-tilt isn't that good. (Honestly, it isn't.) You would think it is kind of like Mario's up-tilt, which scoops up the target and hits in front of him, but nope, Pac-Man's up-tilt is not like that. The hitbox is tiny and hard to hit with. Think of it as Pac-Man's up-smash, but without the scooping hitbox, and a much smaller hitbox. It feels like if you can up-tilt, you can just up-smash instead... Though I think if you catch people with it, you can juggle them for a while or create favorable situations. But the biggest draw to it is that you can't hit the Hydrant with it when you stand next to it... Speaking of Hydrant...

Oh boy. When standing next to it, you actually get pushed away from it, meaning they really don't want you to be able to up-tilt it. (Not sure if up-tilt would of hit anyway, because of its tiny hitbox.) It also felt to be dropping slower in the air and have more lag when dropped, even on the ground.

His up-special is nerfed too, which I predicted. It appears as if opponents now can power shield ("parry") it on the ground, without getting on the trampoline. (They are blocking Pac-Man's up-b hitbox.) When someone was sitting in shield, I ran up to them and used up-b on their shield, but the power shield effect triggered and they didn't bounce on the trampoline. It happened at least once to me. However, not everything is bad with the trampoline itself - it is great that it has a hurtbox now. When turned green, we all know that opponents will enter free fall from it. But Pac-Man won't, and I actually tested this! It acts like a yellow trampoline for him, turning red when he bounces off it. So that's cool!

I want to talk about his fruits a little: Cherry and Strawberry now have more active frames in the air. Same with Apple. Bell seems to stun people like 10-15% longer, but I'm unsure of it. But it felt like they were in stun longer. However, I barely had the time to connect a fully-lengthed Power Pellet to an opponent at around 100% or so, so maybe it is the same duration as in Smash 4. Galaxian and Melon seems the same to me. Same with Key. It really sucks that Melon is as weak as in Smash 4, same with Key. I hit an Inkling to 130% with the Key and Inkling didn't get KO:ed. A real bummer. But I have forgotten a fruit now, haven't I? Yes, the Orange. It really sucks. It's the most nerfed out of them all. It travels slower, disappears sooner and is much weaker. It's such a shame. It is awful.

I can confirm that Bonus Fruit doesn't stale and that you can pick it up after it hits someone/something, just as you could in Smash 4. When Z-dropping a fruit, it behaves the same as it does in Smash 4, only this time you can't pick it up. That is really unfortunate.

His Bair and Up-air are still weak (the former couldn't KO at 130% and the latter couldn't KO at 150%), I hope this is fixed in demo 2, otherwise it is going to be just like in Smash 4. His Dair however... Haha oh boy, it is really good, especially on bigger characters! It was definitely my favourite aerial of them all! It can be used in the neutral much better now and can actually lead to stuff depending on their DI. I managed to get dair to key two times, though it is hard to say if it's guaranteed. I also managed to get one dair to dash attack, but all of this Dairing needs more experimenting. His nair is nicer and fair was harder to string together, though I believe it can lead to stuff much earlier now, even the infamous fair to key.

Out of all smash attacks, his down smash stood out the most. They've really nailed it this time! It is quicker, stronger and a little bit safer now. It is a potent and legit kill move now! Finally!

His backthrow is a kill move at higher percentages now (unlike in Smash 4) and I don't even need to comment on his grab. (The hitboxes are better, no deadzones, the hand has a hitbox and it seems to have a faster start-up as well, probably frame 9-10 I believe.)

All in all, I still think Pac-Man has a long way to go to become a viable character. As I said before, I don't know what has changed about him in demo 2, but in this demo he is still trash. Not as trash as Smash 4 (bottom tier trash), but low tier trash at best. (Though I still think he is bottom tier in this demo.)

Here's hoping he becomes much better in the release version.
Thanks for going and testing him out for us! I'm sad about his uptilt, I had a feeling that it would be mediocre. But I also had a good feeling about his down air and like you said that seems really good.
Something I noticed after watching through the little bit of gameplay we have again, is that his bair -> jab on the hydrant could actually be REALLY good and replace both the old bair -> jab and uair -> utilt. Check it out in the sinji vs shuton video at arounf 5:15 when you get the chance. It sends it backwards but it does one good bounce then bounces similarly to how bair jab(s4) sends it but travels slightly further . It looks as though if you got the spacing right it would 100% hit a hanging opponent while also covering neutral get up and maybe jump forcing them to roll.
 

Shuckle89

Smash Apprentice
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Aug 10, 2014
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according to some vids ive seen his fruit is actually buffed a lot, but the damage is lower. The speed at which pac goes through the fruit is drastically increased so you can use it a lot more. It just does a little less damage
 

meleebrawler

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according to some vids ive seen his fruit is actually buffed a lot, but the damage is lower. The speed at which pac goes through the fruit is drastically increased so you can use it a lot more. It just does a little less damage
I think what people were really concerned about is not being able to re-catch your thrown fruit multiple times in a row. But with the discovery of being able to charge or store a held fruit it's been alleviated a bit.
 

Shuckle89

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I think what people were really concerned about is not being able to re-catch your thrown fruit multiple times in a row. But with the discovery of being able to charge or store a held fruit it's been alleviated a bit.
Yeah there are some pretty severe things changed. Just saying that when just looking at the damage, the increased speed of rotation is far higher than lowered damage. Doesn't change the other stuff but people saying 'slightly faster' isn't true. it is a lot faster.
 

Wigglerman

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Fruits go 'buffed' with the advent of 'Fruit Loop'. While it doesn't help their damage/speed, being able to reuse recaptured fruit (basically being treated as a brand new projectile for reuse and regrab when they could only be regrabbed once) is a major, major buff to the walking hockey puck. In general though he got better overall and while still not quite the upper eschelon, a contender who will bring havoc on those unprepared or inexperienced.
 
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