Work In Progress Pac-Man Matchup Thread

[Splebel]

I don't see any real reason to make rules blocking discussion on past characters, especially considering it's going to be significantly harder finding high level tournament gameplay of Marth v Pacman. We only really need to update the index if something insane is discovered (like Greninja being able to 100% shadow sneak out of Boost Kick and ZSS f-smash, or 1.1.shieldstun).

IMO one of the major issues other boards have had is that they burn out and go nowhere/decide they want to revisit a character after x discussion and never do. IMO we should just set a current main topic character every x time period and try to get some general combat tips for every character, back-editting in important stuff that's brought up for old characters.

There isn't really a rule however I want to link the discussion in the front and it would be hard to if it's interspersed with multiple posts of other characters. A couple is fine but when about 40% aren't about the character is when I start to not like it. Also I would like to keep random Matchup discussion in the other thread while this thread is more focused. I don't need high level level play against every character or videos for every matchup as most characters aren't in high level play but that doesn't mean we should treat them any less. If there is less discussion on one character than another then that is fine but I would like for a character to run it's course before switching to a new charcter to keep it organized. I can't, nor want to, write a detailed summary of every character that incorporates what everyone who discussed on it said. The biggest example I can think of is Mario. There is a great analysis of Mario by @BSP but I didn't put most of it in the summary because it's too big.

But in general my plan was basically what your second paragraph was. I just didn't tell anyone. I would also like to get the thread back on track.

 

[Froggy]

Splebel could we extend the pros and cons section top be a more descriptive list of things we should and should not be doing in a match up. For example one thing we would put under cons against falcon is that standing in shield above him is NOT safe due to shield.

Also can we move on from falcon already this topic is dead. I know I had suggested marth before but selfishly I would like us to do Duck Hunt next. Can we make that a thing?

 

[Splebel]

Froggy Ok I'll switch it Duck Hunt. Also I can add that. I'll also start with some stuff.

Duck Hunt is easy to edge guard because of his up B. However he can still move the can while doing it so watch for that. We can easily defect the can and stop the clay pigeon. The gunners can be annoying and I don't know the properties of each one but they aren't hard to avoid. We do well against a defensive Duck hunt but I tend not to fight aggressive Duck Hunts so I don't know if we get overwhelmed by their projectiles.

 

[verbatim]

Have not played this match in tournament but I feel like Duck Hunt's lack of approach means we can just play lame and stall for keys/galaxians/bells.

Also no combination of two projectiles beats can, except for double sombrero gunman, so that's cool.

I've never really taken the time to learn how to pellet heal consistently, but I feel like that could be a thing here, especially if you know the timing on the gunman.

 

[Froggy]

I played duck hunt and at a recent online tournament and I wasn't able to take a game. My two questions are

what of duck hunts projectiles damage the hydrant?(i am confident Not all of them do)

Do we have any good moves to knock the can back in the air and on the ground?

 

[TheWorstMuppet]

Hello! Duck Hunt boy-o over here!

I think we agreed over on the Duck Hunt boards that the match-up is +1 to Pac Man. Pac Man is the better projectile character in this instance, plus his camping game is slightly more effective. Duck Hunts hafta play defensively in this one too.

That being said, it's not as hard to send hydrant back at Pac Man compared to other characters, as gunmen and clay pigeon can connect with it easy. Duck Hunt can set up faster than Pac Man in a pinch, so he has that going for him I guess. Then again, fruits tend to reflect can and destroy clay pigeon pretty easily.

Obviously Duck Hunt's off stage game isn't up to par with Pac Mans. Pac Mans side-B can definitely stop anything we throw at him if he's recovering.

In the end tho, I think Duck Hunt has better mind games and quicker set ups, but Pac Man has better projectiles overall.

So yeah, +1 to Pac Man.

 

[WispBae]

Another Doggo.

Here are some tidbits to keep in mind.

• Trick Shot (the can) bounces 8 times before blowing up, each bounce going less high and falling faster.
• The Gunmen all have different ranges, damages and timings.
  • The tallest gunman shoots the slowest but covers more than half of FD.
  • The gunman in the coat shoots the fastest, almost immediately.
  • The sombrero gunmen has the shortest amount of range, barely anything, but hits the hardest.
  • The gunmen in black can't shoot the can when it's on the ground just sitting there.
  • The last gunmen is the most "average". Decent range, decent damage, and a timing in the middle of all the gunmen (coat being the fastest and tall being the slowest).
• Gunmen shots are piercing, they go through everything except other players. So they can shoot through the hydrant and bonus fruit.
• Clay Pigeon has two attacks: The actual disc and the explosion (triggered by the doggy player).
• You can knock the can away with attacks, though it is risky.

I'm here to answer any questions you may have. Just leave em here and tag me, and I'll get back to them after work (Maybe like in 6-7 hours?). As TheWorstMuppet mentioned, we have talked Pac-Man in our boards starting from this post, just scroll down!

 

[Nu~]

Actually...the hydrant blocks gunmen shots for some reason. You can test it

 

[Froggy]

Another Doggo.

Here are some tidbits to keep in mind.

• Trick Shot (the can) bounces 8 times before blowing up, each bounce going less high and falling faster.
• The Gunmen all have different ranges, damages and timings.
  • The tallest gunman shoots the slowest but covers more than half of FD.
  • The gunman in the coat shoots the fastest, almost immediately.
  • The sombrero gunmen has the shortest amount of range, barely anything, but hits the hardest.
  • The gunmen in black can't shoot the can when it's on the ground just sitting there.
  • The last gunmen is the most "average". Decent range, decent damage, and a timing in the middle of all the gunmen (coat being the fastest and tall being the slowest).
• Gunmen shots are piercing, they go through everything except other players. So they can shoot through the hydrant and bonus fruit.
• Clay Pigeon has two attacks: The actual disc and the explosion (triggered by the doggy player).
• You can knock the can away with attacks, though it is risky.

I'm here to answer any questions you may have. Just leave em here and tag me, and I'll get back to them after work (Maybe like in 6-7 hours?). As TheWorstMuppet mentioned, we have talked Pac-Man in our boards starting from this post, just scroll down!

What attacks do and do not damage the hydrant? I know not all of them do but I have no way of testing it.

Nu~ Splebel either of you wanna spend 10 minutes with me on WIFI to figure this out?

edit: Me vs Oogamania(losers finals)

http://www.twitch.tv/hypeststream/v/28294923?t=03h54m35s

Don't have much of an answer if I have to fight this guy again except play a more active role in hitting back the can and figure what projectiles affect the hydrant and use the hydrant better. I think DH wins the matchup actually.

 

[WispBae]

What attacks do and do not damage the hydrant? I know not all of them do but I have no way of testing it.

Nu~ Splebel either of you wanna spend 10 minutes with me on WIFI to figure this out?

edit: Me vs Oogamania(losers finals)

http://www.twitch.tv/hypeststream/v/28294923?t=03h54m35s

Don't have much of an answer if I have to fight this guy again except play a more active role in hitting back the can and figure what projectiles affect the hydrant and use the hydrant better. I think DH wins the matchup actually.

All attacks hurt hydrant. It has about 15% of health (if I remember), the gunmen do around 5~8%. Trick Shot and Clay Pigeon do hurt it too but by how much I'm not sure.

Paging DunnoBro since he's fought Zage . Also, @Croi may know about this MU as rare, it's a bit rare, having so few of both character mains.

 

[Froggy]

All attacks hurt hydrant. It has about 15% of health (if I remember), the gunmen do around 5~8%. Trick Shot and Clay Pigeon do hurt it too but by how much I'm not sure.

Paging DunnoBro since he's fought Zage . Also, @Croi may know about this MU as rare, it's a bit rare, having so few of both character mains.

Definitely not all attacks affect the hydrant. You can see a few times I Nair the hydrant after being hit by dh's projectile and it doesn't launch. That shouldn't be possible unless the attack does not affect the hydrant

 

[DunnoBro]

All attacks hurt hydrant. It has about 15% of health (if I remember), the gunmen do around 5~8%. Trick Shot and Clay Pigeon do hurt it too but by how much I'm not sure.

Paging DunnoBro since he's fought Zage . Also, @Croi may know about this MU as rare, it's a bit rare, having so few of both character mains.

The can doesn't recognize it as a body so you can only hurt it with shots or a nearby body to explode off. I think that's the only move that doesn't hit hydrant.

Frisbee ignores the water and two launch the hydrant and the large blast radius often disables it with a hitbox if your timing is off. Also puts it at a really slow moving angle.

 

[Froggy]

The can doesn't recognize it as a body so you can only hurt it with shots or a nearby body to explode off. I think that's the only move that doesn't hit hydrant.

Frisbee ignores the water and two launch the hydrant and the large blast radius often disables it with a hitbox if your timing is off. Also puts it at a really slow moving angle.

Does both the Frisbee and the Frisbee explosion damage the hydrant or is it one and not the other?

 

[DunnoBro]

Does both the Frisbee and the Frisbee explosion damage the hydrant or is it one and not the other?

Frisbee and shots. You need to hit with the frisbee for two to break it, only shots needs three.

 

[Zage]

Definitely not all attacks affect the hydrant. You can see a few times I Nair the hydrant after being hit by dh's projectile and it doesn't launch. That shouldn't be possible unless the attack does not affect the hydrant

This is a quirk with the hydrant itself. Sometimes attacks on the hydrant randomly won't register. You'll get the visual effects of your attack landing, but the hydrant won't take any damage. I'm theorizing that it has to do with parts of the hydrant being considered ungrab-able ledges. You can test it in training mode, difficulty varies depending on what move you use, but I've had situations where two forward smashes and a back-air from Pac-Man didn't launch the hydrant

 

[Splebel]

It's been almost a week now with no new post so I think it's time to move on. Anyone want to talk about Villager?

 

[revengeska]

Since we haven't graduated to Villager yet, I'll add a recent video and a few cents to the Duck Hunt matchup: https://youtu.be/slwVJiJ0BSA

I think Pac-Man is better in this matchup. Cherry, Strawberry, and Orange are useful at deflecting the can. It also seems like Pac-Man wins in close quarters. It seems ill-advised to fight in neutral because of Duck Hunt's quicker projectiles, range-y smashes, and better grab. I'd either go in on him or ran away if he's resetting to neutral. And don't play like an idiot like I did near the end of my match, that helps too lol.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

This is a quirk with the hydrant itself. Sometimes attacks on the hydrant randomly won't register. You'll get the visual effects of your attack landing, but the hydrant won't take any damage. I'm theorizing that it has to do with parts of the hydrant being considered ungrab-able ledges. You can test it in training mode, difficulty varies depending on what move you use, but I've had situations where two forward smashes and a back-air from Pac-Man didn't launch the hydrant

I had the same problem I thought it was something with the hydrant , not the hit. I recorded a replay where I bair twice and a fsmash and I didn't launch it.

 

[Froggy]

I lost to Captain Awesome at the last monthly. I beat him on FD but I really looked a bit helpless on Dreamland on Smashville, its a matchup I need to play more.

 

[Doctor Troggy]

I think the match-up is indeed in Pac-Man's favour. Pac-Man's Neutral B projectiles (Strawberry, Orange, Galaxian and Key, in particular) are faster and less risky than the Can (despite DH being able to grab the thrown projectile). Side-B's Super Armour also makes approach towards DH really easy for Pac. However, much like we can use their can, DH can use our hydrant against us, as you'd expect. Also, DH's recovery is easily punished, so we have the upper hand off-stage.

 

[makemesmellbad]

The matchup is only slightly in Pac's favor, imo.
Pac has some great stage control setups, walls, gimps, combos, and recovery options.
DHD has good harassment and kill potential.

The difference in advantages here is that Pac can gimp DHD extremely easily. DHD's slow recovery and less-than-stellar air game makes him a walking target offstage. Chalking offstage up for Pac.

DHD can harass Pac relatively well, instantly throwing out respectable hitboxes from medium to long ranges. Pac relies a little more heavily on setup and stage presence.
However, Hydrant and Pellet block a lot of DHD's projectiles, allowing Pac to form a rather strong defensive wall. Trampoline is a decent option to force DHD into the air, which, without many safe landing options, lets Pac apply some serious zoning pressure.
Pac also has some fairly bad landing options, too, so DHD can effectively landing-trap Pac with proper reads and frame traps. Hydrant, Pellet, Trampoline, and even u-air stalling can give Pac a little bit more of an edge, however, especially since Pac absolutely loves resetting to neutral, which he has a small advantage over DHD with Fruit angles and Hydrant setups (even if DHD knock Hydrant away, it can be used as bait if Pac knows the angle that it will be sent at due to the attacks DHD tends to favor in launching it).
I'd give Pac another point in the neutral game.

DHD does, however, have better reactionary tools at his disposal than Pac does. I've only played against a handful of DHDs that have given me a tough time because of how effective they were at spacing b-airs and f-airs, as well as tomahawk grabs out the wazoo. Pac doesn't have a lot of counter-offensive tools, rather many defensive ones, and with DHD having slightly better reach and power with normals and a decent grab game, I'd say DHD has a better boxing game than Pac, but it's a very unorthodox style to play such a character.
I'd let DHD have that point, almost entirely due to that specific playstyle which still boggles me (not in a bad way, all styles are viable styles).

Overall, I think DHD and Pac is a MU that looks and feels similar to a room with two walls closing in on each other. The question is which one will break? Based on the theory-craft, I'd give it ever so slightly over to Pac, as being able to gimp DHD is a significant advantage over him, given his sluggish aerial mobility and wide-open recovery. Ground game could go either way, but Pac can play full defense, whereas DHD may have to mix up the go-to BnB tent-pitching and trap-setting.

I'd say this matchup is a solid 55:45, in favor of Pac.

 

[Splebel]

So guys, on the discord server they were talking about Luigi and I summarized it and put it in the thread since no one wants to talk about anything here. So if you have any suggestions on things you would like to talk about let me know.

Froggy I'm finally expanding the pro/con section of the thread. I did it for Luigi and will do the rest later.

 

[Direspect only!]

Dlc tips? For bayonetta, I've found that a heavy anti air game is a good way to stop her safe aerial pressure, and for corrin, I really don't know , I kinda just play the MU by ear.

 

[Froggy]

Bayonetta!

 

[verbatim]

All of the Bonus Fruits negate both of Bayonetta's side b's and hurt her, and charging a fruit blocks her aerial side b. Just play campy and learn how to DI her combo's and you should do fine.

 

[Froggy]

All of the Bonus Fruits negate both of Bayonetta's side b's and hurt her, and charging a fruit blocks her aerial side b. Just play campy and learn how to DI her combo's and you should do fine.

Charging the fruit blocks her areal side b, is that a fact?