OwO What's This? Incineroar Frame Data Thread (Currently Speculatory)

Cetus

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#1
~Neutrals~
Jab: N/A
Forward Tilt: Frame 12
Up Tilt: Frame 7
Down Tilt: Frame 9
Dash Attack: Frame 8


~Smashes~
Forward Smash: Frame 16
Up Smash: Frame 13
Down Smash: Frame 18


~Aerials~
Neutral Air: Frame 5 ~ Landing Lag: 11 Frames
Forward Air: Frame 8 ~ Landing Lag: 14 Frames
Back Air: Frame 7
Up Air: Frame 7
Down Air: Frame 16

~Grabs~
Grab: Frame 8
Dash Grab: Frame 12

~Specials~
Darkest Lariat: Frame 5



Transcendent Priority
Good OOS Option?

Side B: Frame 18



Super Armor
Recovery Potential

Cross Chop: Frame 13
Auto-Cancels
Has Superarmor :sweating:

Revenge: Frame 3

~Credit~
Virum
https://twitter.com/Virum_SD/status/1058168691689435136
This Reddit Post

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/9tk6o3/fighter_69s_specials_are_broken/
KabreKet for Hitboxes
https://twitter.com/KAbreKet

I'm open to contributions and the like to improve it. Overall Incineroar looks like a ****ing blast, regardless of tier placement. Hope he's tournament viable cause I'd love it if this guy was competitive.
 

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#2
Everything that needs to be fast is and everything else is acceptable. We don't know combos or hitboxes so it's hard to call if he's competitive or not but from a cursory glance he seems at least mid-tier. (Assuming frames are accurate)
 
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#3
So far, so good. 'Roar looks like it'll fare pretty well overall, just gotta be careful not get off the stage.
 

Cetus

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#4
User was warned for this post; double posting(Please edit your messages instead)
Everything that needs to be fast is and everything else is acceptable. We don't know combos or hitboxes so it's hard to call if he's competitive or not but from a cursory glance he seems at least mid-tier. (Assuming frames are accurate)
Actually, down tilt, up tilt, up air, to up b is a genuine combo I believe. And down throw combos into f-smash. I'd argue he has a shot at being high tier tbh. Revenge kills combos because it's frame 3, his mobility's a problem until you realize he can center stage with up b. The only problem is his recovery which is just a little awkward but you get directional air dodging, side b which has superarmor, and up b. Overall, I'd say Incineroar's probably going to be great. He has the benefits a heavy would and more without the problems a heavy has.

So far, so good. 'Roar looks like it'll fare pretty well overall, just gotta be careful not get off the stage.
Yeah, though his recovery isn't really all that stellar, at least it's not terrible. He can recover like an average character would. He does have a few options other than up b which is great.
 
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#5
Actually, down tilt, up tilt, up air, to up b is a genuine combo I believe. And down throw combos into f-smash. I'd argue he has a shot at being high tier tbh. Revenge kills combos because it's frame 3, his mobility's a problem until you realize he can center stage with up b. The only problem is his recovery which is just a little awkward but you get directional air dodging, side b which has superarmor, and up b. Overall, I'd say Incineroar's probably going to be great. He has the benefits a heavy would and more without the problems a heavy has.
Crap I forgot about Directional air dodge, and all these combos are fantastic. Consider me much more confident in his viability now
 

Cetus

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#6
Crap I forgot about Directional air dodge, and all these combos are fantastic. Consider me much more confident in his viability now
He has a ton of really good moves which I'm super excited about. And being Incineroar, he has not shortage of kill options. Back throw is around Ness' power I think.
 

Arkaizer

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#8
Had to dig around to find landing lag values on his aerials since there aren't many videos of high-level Incineroar yet. Here's what I could gather:
Nair: ~11 frames of landing lag
Fair: ~14 frames
If anyone can confirm these that'd be helpful.
When I find frame data for Bair and Dair I'll update this. So far they seem pretty good. Looking forward to playing him, for sure.
 

Dε√ilj∦o

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#9
Those frame 5 Nair and Lariat are sexy as ****.

I think his good frame data, high damage output and kill power make out for the fact that he has piss poor mobility and below average recovery.

Also revenge works on throws...? Is this real?
 

RandysRage

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#10
Those frame 5 Nair and Lariat are sexy as ****.

I think his good frame data, high damage output and kill power make out for the fact that he has piss poor mobility and below average recovery.

Also revenge works on throws...? Is this real?
Revenge powers up Incineroar’s next attack, including throws.
 

Arkaizer

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#13
Back air has around 10 frames of landing lag. Got it from this vid at around 56 seconds in:
I'm not too confident in this one though, since the highest setting was only 50fps, so it might actually be a couple frames slower. Either way that's a pretty quick recovery.
 

MdrnDayMercutio

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#14
Finding out the cooldown on moves is going to be of the utmost importance in figuring out where to start trying to develop his meta.

Particularly interested in the cooldown on Revenge, both if it hits and if it whiffs, if anyone is able to get that.
 

Luigifan18

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#15
Finding out the cooldown on moves is going to be of the utmost importance in figuring out where to start trying to develop his meta.

Particularly interested in the cooldown on Revenge, both if it hits and if it whiffs, if anyone is able to get that.
By "if it hits and if it whiffs", you mean whether or not Incinceroar is struck with a blockable/counterable attack during Revenge's counter frames, right? Hey, come to think of it, we should take a look at how many frames the animation/duration of Revenge is, and what the counter frames are relative to the total frames of the move. We already know the counter frames start at frame 3 or 4, making the startup lag of Revenge among the lowest of all counter moves. Knowing the active frames and endlag frames as well will help paint a clearer picture of the move's utility.
 
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MdrnDayMercutio

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#16
By "if it hits and if it whiffs", you mean whether or not Incinceroar is struck with a blockable/counterable attack during Revenge's counter frames, right? Hey, come to think of it, we should take a look at how many frames the animation/duration of Revenge is, and what the counter frames are relative to the total frames of the move. We already know the counter frames start at frame 3 or 4, making the startup lag of Revenge among the lowest of all counter moves. Knowing the active frames and endlag frames as well will help paint a clearer picture of the move's utility.
Yeah. That's what I was talking about. I just couldn't think of a good way to phrase it. But basically how soon can he act if Revenge is triggered and if it isn't.

Sadly for the active frames for the counter I don't think anyone will be able to get a solid answer on that until the game is out, although I'm sure a decent estimate could be made reviewing frame by frame. I have no knowledge of frame counting though or how to tell if frames are missing so I wouldn't be useful there.

I'm also curious on seeing the actual landing lag on his aerials, I know M2K looked at Nair and Fair, but I've barely seen his Bair and never seen him landing with Dair. Hopefully Dair is autocancellable from SH like (Brawl) Ganon, that'll be nice. Just anything to use to condition people to shield will be so incredibly useful for landing the grabs that will be so very important.
 

C4rson

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#18
~Neutrals~
Jab: N/A
Forward Tilt: Frame 12
Up Tilt: Frame 7
Down Tilt: Frame 9
Dash Attack: Frame 8


~Smashes~
Forward Smash: Frame 16
Up Smash: Frame 13
Down Smash: Frame 18


~Aerials~
Neutral Air: Frame 5 ~ Landing Lag: 11 Frames
Forward Air: Frame 8 ~ Landing Lag: 14 Frames
Back Air: Frame 7
Up Air: Frame 7
Down Air: Frame 16

~Grabs~
Grab: Frame 8
Dash Grab: Frame 12

~Specials~
Darkest Lariat: Frame 5



Transcendent Priority
Good OOS Option?

Side B: Frame 18



Super Armor
Recovery Potential

Cross Chop: Frame 13
Auto-Cancels

Revenge: Frame 3


~Credit~
Virum
https://twitter.com/Virum_SD/status/1058168691689435136
This Reddit Post

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/9tk6o3/fighter_69s_specials_are_broken/
KabreKet for Hitboxes
https://twitter.com/KAbreKet

I'm open to contributions and the like to improve it. Overall Incineroar looks like a ****ing blast, regardless of tier placement. Hope he's tournament viable cause I'd love it if this guy was competitive.
Hey thanks for making this! I'm currently in the process of making an incineroar moveset analysis video, and this helped out a lot.
 

Cetus

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#19
Hey thanks for making this! I'm currently in the process of making an incineroar moveset analysis video, and this helped out a lot.
Be sure to check out other sources as well since Incin has plenty of tiny intricacies. Might be good to ask other people who watch the footage.
 

Arkaizer

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#20
Alright, here's a better video that confirms his Back air has 10 frames of landing lag. Jab is frame 5, by the way.
 

Dε√ilj∦o

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#21
Bad news. This footage also shows that Incineroar goes into free fall after using Cross Chop, which means we wont be able to use it first, and then use our double jump for recovery if we get knocked far in the upper left/right corners.
 

Cetus

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#22
Bad news. This footage also shows that Incineroar goes into free fall after using Cross Chop, which means we wont be able to use it first, and then use our double jump for recovery if we get knocked far in the upper left/right corners.
May I see the footage and time stamp please? 'Cause this conflicts with a lot of what's being said. It'd be greatly appreciated :)
 

Arkaizer

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#23
Last one. Up air has 8(!) frames of landing lag, and Down air has 16. By the way, he can act out of cross chop once it runs out. The video I posted earlier with Mario and Incineroar shows that.
Timestamps:
0:09 - Down air
0:19 - up air
 

Dε√ilj∦o

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#24
Last one. Up air has 8(!) frames of landing lag, and Down air has 16. By the way, he can act out of cross chop once it runs out. The video I posted earlier with Mario and Incineroar shows that.
Timestamps:
0:09 - Down air
0:19 - up air
Are you sure? It really looked to me like he went in free fall... It's kinda hard to tell.

But in this video, around the 2:20 mark, he does use Revenge after Cross Chop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjv3HSg4kCI

So I guess I was wrong and it IS good news. Cross Chop can be a decent recovery if we get blasted high up.
 

Cetus

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#25
Are you sure? It really looked to me like he went in free fall... It's kinda hard to tell.

But in this video, around the 2:20 mark, he does use Revenge after Cross Chop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjv3HSg4kCI

So I guess I was wrong and it IS good news. Cross Chop can be a decent recovery if we get blasted high up.
Up B has a thing where if he lands, he does this small animation where he bounces off the ground and goes into freefall or something. But it's only when you hit the ground. I actually SDd today in a demo because I slid off a platform after using Up B XD.
 

Grevmak

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#26
Outside of this thread I've seen some people call Revenge bad because of its predictability, and others say it's really strong because of the empower working with throws, smashes, tilts, you name it. One thing to consider is that while Revenge is indeed powerful, its predictability might actually be an insanely powerful asset.

If you know your flowcharts you can bait your enemy into playing defensively or pretend to fish for some big hit or killthrow just to throw out sth completely different and get out of neutral into a big advantage state or get an earlier kill your enemy might not anticipate thanks to the inc. percent you gget out of Revenge.

I'm really excited to try out Incineroar, he looks fun to play and very unique.
 
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MdrnDayMercutio

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#27
Up B has a thing where if he lands, he does this small animation where he bounces off the ground and goes into freefall or something. But it's only when you hit the ground. I actually SDd today in a demo because I slid off a platform after using Up B XD.
Since you've played, I'm curious. How consistently does the first hit of UpB combo into the second? It looked consistent until the newest batch of videos and now it looks incredibly unreliable. Any info?
 

Cetus

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#28
Since you've played, I'm curious. How consistently does the first hit of UpB combo into the second? It looked consistent until the newest batch of videos and now it looks incredibly unreliable. Any info?
I was unable to get a clean hit because the demo's just incredibly chaotic. However, I can say I was able to deal a lot of damage just using Up B on the stage. The hitbox seems pretty generous on all parts of the move. I assume it depends on positioning since just edging out will knock them in an unfavorable position but combo set ups place it favorably such as the down throw string.
 

MdrnDayMercutio

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#29
I was unable to get a clean hit because the demo's just incredibly chaotic. However, I can say I was able to deal a lot of damage just using Up B on the stage. The hitbox seems pretty generous on all parts of the move. I assume it depends on positioning since just edging out will knock them in an unfavorable position but combo set ups place it favorably such as the down throw string.
Alright, thanks for the info. I guess I'll just have to play around and test out different set ups and reads to see what I can find. It looks like one of the earliest kill options since SideB doesn't seem to kill as early as I thought. Will likely be important to find these.
 

Potato_

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#30
Outside of this thread I've seen some people call Revenge bad because of its predictability, and others say it's really strong because of the empower working with throws, smashes, tilts, you name it. One thing to consider is that while Revenge is indeed powerful, its predictability might actually be an insanely powerful asset.

If you know your flowcharts you can bait your enemy into playing defensively or pretend to fish for some big hit or killthrow just to throw out sth completely different and get out of neutral into a big advantage state or get an earlier kill your enemy might not anticipate thanks to the inc. percent you gget out of Revenge.

I'm really excited to try out Incineroar, he looks fun to play and very unique.
This is a very good point. Revenge's strength seems to be in its flexibility and the fact that it makes your opponent change up their gameplan considerably or risk eating 30-40%.

I'm with you on being interested in playing him. I've always thought a grappler focused moveset would be really fun to explore in Smash and Incineroar fits the bill.
 

Drbaboon

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#31
Outside of this thread I've seen some people call Revenge bad because of its predictability, and others say it's really strong because of the empower working with throws, smashes, tilts, you name it. One thing to consider is that while Revenge is indeed powerful, its predictability might actually be an insanely powerful asset.

If you know your flowcharts you can bait your enemy into playing defensively or pretend to fish for some big hit or killthrow just to throw out sth completely different and get out of neutral into a big advantage state or get an earlier kill your enemy might not anticipate thanks to the inc. percent you gget out of Revenge.

I'm really excited to try out Incineroar, he looks fun to play and very unique.
I know this thread is on frame data. But there really isnt any other thread to share this info on about revenge. I saw in the tree house that a revenge powered fsmash did ~60% to lucario implying it was a x3ish multiplyer, but then we would see the pikalibre match right after and there was this x1.7 multiplyer for all the attacks he did. So which is it? First i thought maybe smash attacks worked differently from throws with revenge but after watching a match, incineroars did a back throw that did 30% (with the items multiplyer bthrow does 10% fresh)
so my conclusion is that revenge DOES scale with how much damage you receive. (not how revenge works at all in pokemon but meh) if it is set at x1.7 for weaker hits like projectiles or just happens to be the lowest value<example being it could be maybe x1.9 but if the damage he takes is weak enough it caps at x1.7 and the same for x3 if its too much it just rounds down to x3> or the other possibility that i think is most likely, is it's either a x1.7 for weak hits or mayb or x3 for strong hits. Since i haven't seen any move do x2 -yet- i'm more inclined to speculate its the latter of the two[i swear almost ever match where incineroar gets revenge boosted, the player sd's off stage or gets finalsmashed] I still think revenge is a great move but having a 1.7 multiplyer is not nearly as over welming for projectile spam to feel pressured to not give Roar a free revenge as say a x3 boost,
 
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Drbaboon

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#32
I know this thread is on frame data. But there really isnt any other thread to share this info on about revenge. I saw in the tree house that a revenge powered fsmash did ~60% to lucario implying it was a x3ish multiplyer, but then we would see the pikalibre match right after and there was this x1.7 multiplyer for all the attacks he did. So which is it? First i thought maybe smash attacks worked differently from throws with revenge but after watching a doubles match of two incineroars on the animlacrossing island stage, one of them did a back throw that did 30% (with the items multiplyer bthrow does 10% fresh)
[Im discribing the videos cause i dont want this to just come out of nowhere but have proof] so my conclusion is that revenge DOES scale with how much damage you recieve(not how revenge works at all in pokemon but meh) if it is set at x1.7 for weaker hits like projectiles or just happens to be the lowest value<example being it could be maybe x1.9 but if the damage he takes is weak enough it caps at x1.7 and the same for x3 if its too much it just rounds down to x3> or the other possibility that i think is most likely, is it's either a x1.7 for weak hits or mayb or x3 for strong hits. Since i haven't seen any move do x2 -yet- i'm more inclined to speculate its the latter of the two[i swear almost ever match where incineroar gets revenge boosted, the player sd's off stage or gets finalsmashed] I still think revenge is a great move but having a 1.7 multiplyer is not nearly as over welming for projectile spam to feel pressured to not give Roar a free revenge as say a x3 boost,


Also, I've notcied it seems revenge only works IF the attack hits Near his belt, it maybe a demo issue or a feature idk.


Source: at 1:46


https://youtu.be/I7Eg6uJPaZw


Greninja will bounce off shield, then inciniroar will attempt to counter, the move connects, he even takes reduceddamage and makes a pose like he succesfully countered, but no flame or sign of revenge triggering on his body,(this could be that he timed it poorly but he shouldn't have posed like it was a success if that is the case, and you could use this for frame data of how long counter lasts too) but then greninja fairs him as he counters a second time but this time it hits near his belt. And then a fthrow that does 30% <item bonus makes it do this much at x3>

Sources: other for x3 bthrow


at 2:06 you'll see -name tag 'Furry'-(incineroar) counter lucario's aura and take 5%(reduced damage), followed by a backthrow that does 29%(x3 damage)


https://youtu.be/U-4Kp35QIi0


Anyway I hope this helps with theory crafting as i am really excited to switch to the next smashultimate version of sm4sh ganon (their frame data speed and command grab are really simular dispite no techchases from side b.)
 
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Cetus

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#33
I think Incineroar might have frame 1 armor on Revenge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2WX5UaKK5U
At the 1:30 mark, Incineroar was able to use Revenge out of Simon's rabid jab. I also hear he was able to do it in Pikachu's jab too. While nothing's confirmed yet, Incineroar could potentially have one of the best combo breaking tools in the game.
 

Ultinarok

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#35
At the moment I'm concerned about Incineroar's viability as his neutral and disadvantage are going to be awful.
-No projectile, meaning he can't force approaches
-Horrible movement speed both grounded and in the air (he looks slower than Ganon), meaning he will have a terrible time closing the distance to his opponent if they have a projectile or good defensive tool.
-His specials afford him no approach option either, like what Ganon has.
-He looks easy to juggle and seems like he's going to have an awful time landing just based on the metrics of his aerials. He's going to depend way too much on air dodges.
-His recovery is one of the worst in the entire series. Its seriously horrible, and Darkest Lariat doesn't even help as much as it should.

At this point, he's looking to be bottom 5 in singles, but a strong doubles contender due to heavy punishes, especially with grabs, and Revenge setups with a partner. I expect to see him shine in Doubles like Lucario and Cloud, but unlike them, I dont think he'll be winning much in Singles. Smash 4 Ganondorf is proof that good moves only get you so far when you have an awful neutral and get edgeguarded so easily.
 
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Luigifan18

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#36
At the moment I'm concerned about Incineroar's viability as his neutral and disadvantage are going to be awful.
-No projectile, meaning he can't force approaches
-Horrible movement speed both grounded and in the air (he looks slower than Ganon), meaning he will have a terrible time closing the distance to his opponent if they have a projectile or good defensive tool.
-His specials afford him no approach option either, like what Ganon has.
-He looks easy to juggle and seems like he's going to have an awful time landing just based on the metrics of his aerials. He's going to depend way too much on air dodges.
-His recovery is one of the worst in the entire series. Its seriously horrible, and Darkest Lariat doesn't even help as much as it should.

At this point, he's looking to be bottom 5 in singles, but a strong doubles contender due to heavy punishes, especially with grabs, and Revenge setups with a partner. I expect to see him shine in Doubles like Lucario and Cloud, but unlike them, I dont think he'll be winning much in Singles. Smash 4 Ganondorf is proof that good moves only get you so far when you have an awful neutral and get edgeguarded so easily.
That sounds kinda like Incineroar in competitive Pokémon; garbage in singles (don't let the rosy-sounding analysis fool you, NU is the second-lowest tier), awesome in doubles.

Also, Ganondorf may have several great moves, but those moves don't include things that could really help him out, like projectiles, reflectors, or counters. It just goes to show that even if you have a few incredible moves, if your overall kit doesn't have much going for it, you're going nowhere except for the bottom of the tier list.
 

Chibi-Chan

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#38
He's not bottom 5. He's not "good" but I don't think he'll be as low as bottom 5 at all.
I've learned after a while that he's a lot better than I thought and can do things other heavies can't. Just for that I'm positive he won't be bottom 5 even with the dreadful upB.

For a "big" character, he has very fast kill aerials and other KO setups from Dtilt, sideB and Grab. So he's not gonna be lumbering around trying to hit some slow move to seal the deal. Just look at that good frame data!
 

Ultinarok

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#39
He's not bottom 5. He's not "good" but I don't think he'll be as low as bottom 5 at all.
Only time will tell I suppose. Right now, he looks like a capable threat up close with multiple OoS options and great punishes on opposing shields or rolls. The problem will be if he'll ever be able to get that close in the first place, or win neutral with his lack of a projectile, mobility, or disjoints.

Ultimate's new aggressive formula may help him, but past Smash games have told us that having a bad neutral and questionable disadvantage state makes for a bottom tier character. Just look at Ganondorf, Zelda or Falco. They had great tools in Smash 4 too. But it did little to help a bad disadvantage and non-existent approach.

I'm hoping he'll receive some patch love soon after launch that will at the very least boost his recovery distance, as that may allow him into at least low tier.

Also remember: its good to be optimistic, but SOMEONE is going to be bottom 5. Every character thread seems convinced that their fighter won't be bottom 5, but they objectively can't all be correct. As it stands, Incin may one of the most glaring potential bottom 5 characters alongside Kirby, Bowser Jr, Pichu, Dr. Mario etc. Yeah they've gotten buffs, but not to the areas that hurt them most (Kirby's approach and mobility issues, BJ's damage mechanic and susceptibility to gimps, Dr. Mario's horrible speed and recovery, Pichu's super light weight and self-damaging.)

I'm still excited to try Incineroar out, but I'll likely play him only in teams with my brother, where he'll actually shine. Just like in Gen 7 itself.
 

Dε√ilj∦o

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#40
Incineroar is not bottom 5 lmao. He's absolutely terrifying, despite his shortcomings.

Here's, finally, some GOOD gameplay in GOOD quality of Incineroar. It's against Level 9 CPUs (which are actually relentless in this game and look fun to playagainst for once), but it's still very good gameplay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sUBX6vM2eI

What I found the most interesting in this footage is at 1:46. Forward tilt kills Corrin at 87% near the ledge. I know Incineroar had some rage, but even in some other gameplay I've seen agaist Shulk I believe, even at around 50% this move had powerful knockback, AND it appears to be a semi-spike. This move is fast, deadly, and will probably be the A attack to go for for kills instead of our Smash attacks.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mvf89YJVgs

At 22 seconds. Darkest Lariat actually has multiple hitboxes. That's HUGE. Bayonetta's Bat WIthin activated, yet she still got hit afterwards. Not to mention this move does 20%, and has transcendant priority. Incredible move.
Neutral air is very good, I like this move. Up tilt is nice, Up air is a good juggling tool, and both seem to combo out of Down Throw.

Yeah, this character doesn't look bottom 5 to me. Cross Chop isnt as bad as people make it out to be seriously you can even cross chop offstage after a jump and make it back and it spikes opponents, and it's good for recovering high and has armor, holy **** this character is absolutely terrifying and has so many good options, Darkest Lariat is a frame 5, frame FIVE move with priority, invincibility on startup and kills, he has decent frame data, 3 kill throws, Back throw is the new strongest Backthrow in the game, 1 combo throw in down throw, down tilt is an incredible combo starter or confirm for kills like down throw+Lariat or Down throw+Cross chop, a powerful command grab with long reach, good aerials, Revenge is broken, his forward tilt is broken for no reason, literally the only thing balancing out Incineroar's ridiculous kill power and damage output is its abyssmal mobility which isnt THAT big of a deal considering how small stages are in Ultimate like FD, I had worries too when he was announced because evey single person who played him and we got footage of was garbage so far, but seeing good footage like this gives me huge hopes for him, and even FATALITY for crying out loud wants to pick up this character and oh my god if he does Incineroar will have incredible tournament representation and will be hype as **** to watch.
Also that Wrestling belt victory screen is top tier.

and keep an eye on this guy, he's testing Incineroar and you can see some stuff I talked about here: https://twitter.com/piuzera_
 
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