Overnerfed?

[Halcyondays17]

Hey Corrin Mains,

I’ve been playing Corrin since the character were DLC in Smash WiiU/3Ds and I want your opinion on Smash Ultimate Corrin. Do you all think Corrin is an example of overnerfing a character?

The character had glaring issues such as a spameable Dragon Lunge attack and powerful Counter Surge in Smash 4 that lead many people to dislike playing against Corrin. Sakurai and his team have addressed these issues by nerfing Dragon Lunge into a useful but also punishable option for the character.
However, in Ultimate it seems every special has received a massive nerf. Dragon Ascent no longer has the bit of momentum near the end of the move, reducing Corrin's horizontal recovery and making their recovery more predictable and punishable than it already was. In addition, Dragon Fang Shot's bite attack no longer feels like it reliably connects with the move, making Corrin lose a good kill option at higher percent. Dragon Fang Shot's stun time was also greatly reduced which doesn't allow for followup attacks other than the bite. Finally, Corrin's forward aerial no longer connects with itself or their amazing up-air as reliably, taking away Corrin's ability to rack up damage quickly.

Overall, it feels to me like the character received a lot of changes to their playstyle that did not change them positively in Ultimate. While many characters are able to easily rack up damage with combos or powerful attacks, Corrin feels like they require much more effort than other sword characters to get that damage. This mixed with Corrin's already predictable specials and smash attacks leads me to believe the character was nerfed too much. In my opinion, I think they should have left most of Corrin's moves alone and only balanced Dragon Lunge and Counter Surge. Had the changes been just these two moves, I believe Corrin would still be as good of a character as in Wii U/3DS while also being more fair to fight against.

What do you all think? If you disagree please tell me why, and if you agree with me then what do you think will be buffed in the future? I would love to be proven wrong by others that play Corrin.

 

[KatKit]

I don't recall if it was in Smash 4, but you can drop to the ground by pressing down during Dragon Lunge. If it was in the last game (IDK), I don't think it happened as fast. So, that's one potential buff.

Maybe it's just my playstyle, but Corrin still seems pretty solid to me. It's a new Smash, so I try to rely on new tactics. I think a prime example of over-nerfing a character would be Melee Kirby.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I don't recall if it was in Smash 4, but you can drop to the ground by pressing down during Dragon Lunge. If it was in the last game (IDK), I don't think it happened as fast. So, that's one potential buff.

It was an involuntary action in the last game if you waited too long. And having to wait a couple seconds ruined its potential as a surprise option so it's nice that you can choose it as freely as the other three options. That being said, I don't think it's any faster. ~35 frame animation give or take a few depending on how high your pin was. And that's too slow to get any guaranteed hits on the downed opponent unless they just fail to react. At best it sets up a tech chase. A dash back Fsmash may cover the range of their rolls, but that's something that warrants testing character by character.

 

[KatKit]

Thanks for the info! I mostly use the drop as a fakeout of sorts to mix things up; I've caught a few people shielding (expecting the lunge) and hit them with a charged neutral special or D-Smash. It's still situational, but doing it on command instead of waiting seems way better overall.

 

[Mikazuki]

I am doing decent with Corrin, but I have to agree that she was nerfed way too hard. It's kinda frustrating to see all these characters with their broken attacks killing you at 80% while Corrin has no kill confirm whatsoever. No safe attacks on shield means that she gets easily punished and her bad recovery leads to getting easily gimped. She may be invincible during some frames of her upB, but that doesn't help much if your only choice is to recover low. She can still juggle somwhat well, but nearly every character in the game has a better moveset than her. I would put her at low or bottom tier.

Still love her though. She is a cinnamon roll.

 

[Ryuvain]

I'm just happy she's not seen for only side b spam anymore.

 

[Virgilijus]

Never played Smash 4, but she is close to bottom tier, if not there, in Ultimate.

She has, effectively, no combos and the few connections she has literally only rack up 20% and only when the enemy is at certain percents. Her grab has horrible range and the throws neither kill nor set up ANY follow ups.

Her only off platform edgeguarding tool is b-air, which is decent (though slow and incredibly predictable). Literally every other attack she has sends them up and, with aerial drift what it is in the game, only helps recovery. But, because her recovery is so poor (the height and angles on UpB are really bad), going out far and missing can very quickly lead to a reverse edgeguard.

Essentially, to win as Corrin you have to win neutral twice as much as your opponent and, almost certainly (barring a lucky fsmash/dsmash callout) kill them at high percent.

I would love for just anything to reliably start a combo. I look at Ike and his Nair and, with his kit, it's so useful. But everything Corrin has beside dtilt into utilt/uair feels like it's intentionally discordant.

I like her for her visual design, but boy, does she need help to be even remotely respectable.

 

[Halcyondays17]

Never played Smash 4, but she is close to bottom tier, if not there, in Ultimate.

She has, effectively, no combos and the few connections she has literally only rack up 20% and only when the enemy is at certain percents. Her grab has horrible range and the throws neither kill nor set up ANY follow ups.

Her only off platform edgeguarding tool is b-air, which is decent (though slow and incredibly predictable). Literally every other attack she has sends them up and, with aerial drift what it is in the game, only helps recovery. But, because her recovery is so poor (the height and angles on UpB are really bad), going out far and missing can very quickly lead to a reverse edgeguard.

Essentially, to win as Corrin you have to win neutral twice as much as your opponent and, almost certainly (barring a lucky fsmash/dsmash callout) kill them at high percent.

I would love for just anything to reliably start a combo. I look at Ike and his Nair and, with his kit, it's so useful. But everything Corrin has beside dtilt into utilt/uair feels like it's intentionally discordant.

I like her for her visual design, but boy, does she need help to be even remotely respectable.

A well timed Dragon Lunge on the edge of the stage can kill just about anyone trying to camp the ledge. I've caught so many people by doing this, it's satisfying as hell. Corrin can also pull of 50-60% combo strings using fast fall Nair and Forward Aerials with a finishing Up air at early percentages.

A well timed Dragon Fang Shot at the ledge can also kill around 90 (if bad DI) and is pretty much guaranteed with a partial Bite charge at 100% or more. Dragon Lunge's kick is also still incredibly powerful if you pull it off. Reading your opponent's playstyle and not launching all over the screen is key to using it effectively.

I wouldn't say Corrin is bottom tier personally. She feels like a solid mid to low-mid because of her kit alone. Feel free to let me know if you disagree though, I'd like more discussion on how the character plays rather then her design (even though I love both).

 

[Virgilijus]

A well timed Dragon Lunge on the edge of the stage can kill just about anyone trying to camp the ledge. I've caught so many people by doing this, it's satisfying as hell. Corrin can also pull of 50-60% combo strings using fast fall Nair and Forward Aerials with a finishing Up air at early percentages.

Are those actual combos, though, or just strings if the opponent messes up? I just opened up training mode with Bowser and the most I can get (without him DI'ing) is nair -> fair -> utilt for 26.8%.

As for the Dragon Fang, with the wind up taking so long and so many recoveries able to come up from below and safely ledge snap. The start up and end lag for it also make essentially all follows ups that aren't a point blank bite irrelevant.

It seems like the designers wanted to make her main kit about juggling (nair's coverage and length, as well as uair's range are good), but her speed and air mobility are pretty bad and cast with good drift feel like they can get around her too easily. For those that can't, conditioning them to dodge to the ground and getting them with a tippered fsmash is good (and can lead to early kills), but by no means reliable.

 

[Halcyondays17]

Are those actual combos, though, or just strings if the opponent messes up? I just opened up training mode with Bowser and the most I can get (without him DI'ing) is nair -> fair -> utilt for 26.8%.

As for the Dragon Fang, with the wind up taking so long and so many recoveries able to come up from below and safely ledge snap. The start up and end lag for it also make essentially all follows ups that aren't a point blank bite irrelevant.

It seems like the designers wanted to make her main kit about juggling (nair's coverage and length, as well as uair's range are good), but her speed and air mobility are pretty bad and cast with good drift feel like they can get around her too easily. For those that can't, conditioning them to dodge to the ground and getting them with a tippered fsmash is good (and can lead to early kills), but by no means reliable.

Yeah her aerial strings at lower percents are not true combos unlike in Smash 4, though I have done what Training Mode considers as "true combos" by utilizing platforms and using Fast Fall Fairs. She used to be a lot better at juggling due to forward air knockback not being as high. As for reliability I agree that not many of her options are reliable. I've found most success when playing matches that are longer since I'm able to pick up on opponents' patterns.

Thanks for your input on the discussion by the way, I appreciate it.

 

[Virgilijus]

Has any one found a good use for dair?

Only thing I've found is, if you have a stock lead, suiciding against predictable vertical recoveries (though even then, if they're at low enough %, some can still recover).

 

[ISolox]

Has any one found a good use for dair?

Only thing I've found is, if you have a stock lead, suiciding against predictable vertical recoveries (though even then, if they're at low enough %, some can still recover).

I use it directly after jumping off a ledge grab to knock them away from you. IDK if this is a good tactic or not overall as I'm not a very competetive player but it has worked for me so far. Just make sure you don't do it too early or you'll suicide :/

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Ah, I feel the same way. I basically solo-mained Corrin in 4, but after feeling them in Ultimate, I started off dedicating my time to Inkling and other characters like Cloud and Wii Fit. I gave them another go this week though, and I guess they aren't THAT bad?

Dragon Lunge was definitely gutted, but I think you make a fair assessment of it. It's no longer a move you can spam and abuse in neutral like in 4, so I get the most mileage out of it as a whiff punish when I'm dash dancing just outside of my opponent's range. Still though, it kills much later and it's overall laggier and less safe. I really dislike that you can't full hop pin and still have enough time to jump or Nair to mitigate lag anymore, and it also worsens Corrin at the ledge.

DFS is a real disgrace, the uncharged shot doesn't reliably combo into the bite anymore, and the stun is pretty much useless.

Fair did get nerfed as far as startup goes, but it's still useful! FFFair can confirm into pin tip and DFS at mid percents for a potential kill, and it still combos well enough.

Actually though, I feel like Uair is one of our best aerials now. It still has fantastic kill power, even at ground level, but the buff to landing lag means that FFUair isn't strictly worse than FFFair anymore. The back hit has amazing range and can combo into another Uair for juggles, Bair for a kill, or Fair for combos. It's SUPER good. For example, on a lot of characters, you can do FFUair > SHFFUair > FHUair > DJUair, or FFUair > FHFair > falling Nair/Uair > FHFair > DJFair/Uair, OR FFUair > SHFFUair > FHFair > DJFair > falling Uair. It's just a super versatile move that can get combos started earlier than Fair, juggle, stuff out approaches with the back hit when mixed up with Bair, cover platform tech chases, and kill. Reeeeeeally good.

 

[zblaqk]

Her down air is a kill confirm with a read tech, buffer dash and input forward smash.

 

[Mikazuki]

Has any one found a good use for dair?

Only thing I've found is, if you have a stock lead, suiciding against predictable vertical recoveries (though even then, if they're at low enough %, some can still recover).

It can be decent for landing, because it has suprisingly a lot of priority over a fair number of moves, but only use it as mix up option.

Probably the worst thing about DFS is that literally anything can stop it. I can't tell you how many times Inkling's fair/bair has stopped a fully charged DFS, even other projectiles cut through it like butter. It's really dumb.

Pin off stage is still relatively good and kills really early if the tipper hits, sure, but the range can be deceiving and due to lag whiffing the move happens quite often. If the opponent tries to recover low, go for a pin right below the ledge. That way you can even stop K Rool's recovery, kinda crazy actually that Corrin can edgeguard him. Another thing that helps me kill more reliably is using her bair as bait and catching their airdodge with a well spaced upb, works everytime. Still, having to rely on reads doesn't speak for her viability. Well, 2.0 is right around the corner, let's hope for the best.

 

[hermes]

Dragon fang shot stun isnt useless though. Stun can kill confirm with run+dragon lunge at certain percents.

I think corrin is low tier. With nerfed pin alone he could have been mid at best with this games all across buffs.. but they gutted many of his other moves. This character cant kill well, is slow and unsafe, is very vulnerable offstage, his grab is meh, his edgeguard is one of the weakest. Fast fall fair or dtilt are damaging, he can do a few frametrap juggles, pin is still good, I like his ledgetrap and thats about it. Looking at lucinas pressure with speed, power and offstage corrin cant be a mid tier.

I think we need a recovery buff easier combo for fair slightly better projectile and scarier fsmash. I feel like up air and counter kill later too. I just want them to revert back the nerfs except pin and add one more threat. Like grab to fair or more speed as a great buff or maybe greatly buff his dragon attacks with a very scary kill throw and counter.

 

[Eggimannd]

lol low tier you guys are smoking ****ing good ****. Shes definitely high tier borderline op

 

[Virgilijus]

So far, results argue against that.

 

[hermes]

lol low tier you guys are smoking ****ing good ****. Shes definitely high tier borderline op

You are cute but saying corrin borderline op isnt too cute. We have amazing swordsmen. I think he isnt too bad but a low tier.