Options out of flamechoke?

[Ethereal Reaper]

I'm very new to Project M, and new to ganondorf in general. One of the biggest things bothering me about him is the lack of options out of flamechoke. I'm sure he has them I just don't know what they are. So if anyone could be kind enough to educate me(or point me to the direction of a good ganon tutorial), I'd appreciate it greatly

 

[CORY]

Bruh, I gotchu. Gimme a minute to find it and I'll link it or quote it here or something.

 

[CORY]

airtime
-2: Fox
+1: Falco
+2: Wolf
+4: Bowser, Falcon, ZSS, Lucas
+5: Diddy, MK
+6: Wario, Shiek, Tink, Lucario, Roy
+7: DK, Link, Squirtle
+8: Ganon, Pika, Sonic
+9: Yoshi, Zard, DDD, Ike, Olimar, GnW
+10: Mario, Pit, Snake
+11: Ic's, Ness, ROB
+12: Marth
+13: Ivy
+14: Luigi, Samus, Kirby
+15: Peach, Mewtwo
+18: Zelda
+21: Jiggs
Followups:
None: Fox(-2), Falco(1), Wolf(2)
Only Jab: Bowser(4), Falcon(4), ZSS(4), Lucas(4)
Plust Utilt: Diddy(5), MK(5), Wario(6), Shiek(6), Tink(6), Lucario(6), Roy(6)
Plus grab and Dash attack: DK(7), Link(7), Squirtle(7), Ganon(8), Pika(8), Sonic(8)
Plus Ftilt: Yoshi(9), Zard(9), DDD(9), Ike(9), Olimar(9), GnW(9)
Plust Dtilt and Nair: Mario(10), Pit(10), Snake(10)
Plus Dash Grab and Uair: IC's(11), Ness(11), ROB(11), Marth(12), Ivy(13)
Plus Down B: Luigi(14), Samus(14), Kirby(14), Peach(15), Mewtwo(15)
Plus Side B: Zelda(18), Jiggs(21)
Addendums:
-all numbers in parenthesis are the amount of airborne frames the opponent is in before they can tech.
-anything higher than 14 frames of airtime allows the opponent the chance to do something out of it, as AFC only has 14 frames of hitstun.
-any aerials, dash grab, and dash attack assume frame perfection and instant activation of said attacks (on this note, the dash grab may not be accurate for the first possible frames, since i don't know if you have to dash for one frame before you can start the dash grab)
-down b and side b don't account for travel time, just raw start up frames vs. Airborne frames.
-an extension of the above: i haven't properly tested di and drifting, so everything here is just pure numbers. If someone would like to help with testing, go for it.

 

[Ethereal Reaper]

airtime
-2: Fox
+1: Falco
+2: Wolf
+4: Bowser, Falcon, ZSS, Lucas
+5: Diddy, MK
+6: Wario, Shiek, Tink, Lucario, Roy
+7: DK, Link, Squirtle
+8: Ganon, Pika, Sonic
+9: Yoshi, Zard, DDD, Ike, Olimar, GnW
+10: Mario, Pit, Snake
+11: Ic's, Ness, ROB
+12: Marth
+13: Ivy
+14: Luigi, Samus, Kirby
+15: Peach, Mewtwo
+18: Zelda
+21: Jiggs
Followups:
None: Fox(-2), Falco(1), Wolf(2)
Only Jab: Bowser(4), Falcon(4), ZSS(4), Lucas(4)
Plust Utilt: Diddy(5), MK(5), Wario(6), Shiek(6), Tink(6), Lucario(6), Roy(6)
Plus grab and Dash attack: DK(7), Link(7), Squirtle(7), Ganon(8), Pika(8), Sonic(8)
Plus Ftilt: Yoshi(9), Zard(9), DDD(9), Ike(9), Olimar(9), GnW(9)
Plust Dtilt and Nair: Mario(10), Pit(10), Snake(10)
Plus Dash Grab and Uair: IC's(11), Ness(11), ROB(11), Marth(12), Ivy(13)
Plus Down B: Luigi(14), Samus(14), Kirby(14), Peach(15), Mewtwo(15)
Plus Side B: Zelda(18), Jiggs(21)
Addendums:
-all numbers in parenthesis are the amount of airborne frames the opponent is in before they can tech.
-anything higher than 14 frames of airtime allows the opponent the chance to do something out of it, as AFC only has 14 frames of hitstun.
-any aerials, dash grab, and dash attack assume frame perfection and instant activation of said attacks (on this note, the dash grab may not be accurate for the first possible frames, since i don't know if you have to dash for one frame before you can start the dash grab)
-down b and side b don't account for travel time, just raw start up frames vs. Airborne frames.
-an extension of the above: i haven't properly tested di and drifting, so everything here is just pure numbers. If someone would like to help with testing, go for it.

holy ****, thanks

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I might whip up some testing for @ CORY , I love testing stuff for fun characters. I did some testing for grounded flame choke in relation to Squirtle. This may change with different weights/fallspeeds/tech rolls, keep that in mind. But on Squirtle, you can create a very interesting 50/50. Since you can cover tech in place/miss tech with either direction you guess, if you do it enough it will convince them to never do it. I don't know how much d tilt combos, but I think its safe to say you get punished way more off the close hit then the far one. Once those options are eliminated, you can mix in much safer and more rewarding reads, since the options that would punish the hard tech roll reads are strongly discouraged early on.

This may also work with dsmash, not positive on that one, but at kill percents it also works with Wizards foot. Again, don't really know if this works on everyone or not, but it appears to be quite potent.

 

[Yallo42]

Aerial Flame Choke options

A lot of these don't work if the opponent DIs away. Jab seems most useful; It hits most characters regardless of DI (not fully tested), though I could see grab being useful on floaties.
edit: Jab doesn't hit DI toward ganon.

 

[CORY]

Can you go into debug and find ones that don't work then? So we can know specifically which followups are usable?

I did state this is something I'd need assistance with.

 

[Yallo42]

Well, apparently DIing actually changes (usually reduces?) the amount of time in the air, which obviously messes up a few of our options. I figured this out after a lot of testing, so im not 100% sure about these, but anyway:
-Jab, F tilt, grab, and D tilt don't hit if DI behind ganon unless you turn around, requiring one more frame.
-Down B can't hit if they DI either way.
-Up air can't regardless of DI
-Dash attack and dash grab need one more frame to dash
-Grab doesn't hit if they DI away, but you can JC grab with two more frames (one for dash, one for jump)
-Up tilt doesn't hit if they DI away
In conclusion:
If +4 Jab or Turn Jab
If +5 through +8 Jab or U Tilt
If +9 through +21 JC grab or turn grab
If -2 through +2 tech chase

 

[CORY]

which ones did you test in debug, character-wise? so the list can be updated. and from what i can tell, proper di is straight away, since the launching hitbox uses 270 as its angle, so straight down (since you want to be perpendicular to the launch angle for maximum effect) . does this seem correct to you, as well? my test was done with straight away from ganon di on everything, so that's how long they're in the air holding what i assume to be proper di.

thanks for the info on the dash [action] stuff, i thought you needed at least one frame to start the dash, but i wasn't sure because i've heard frame advance doesn't always work 100% like it would in game.

 

[Yallo42]

I tested at least one character from each airtime level, and tried all possible options (unless I accidentally missed one). Proper DI is either straight toward ganon or straight away (a smart opponent will mix up DI) because some options hit DI away but not DI in and vice versa. For example, Jab always hits if the opponent DIs away or doesn't DI, but will never hit DI in unless you turn around, giving up the chance to hit DI away. In short, this means aerial flame choke becomes a 50-50 chance for a combo.

 

[CORY]

awesome, hopefully i can test some this weekend when i'm hanging out with friends (and presumably smashing 90% of the time). it's good to know i had the right idea with the di, especially since that means the airtime is correct for proper di instances.

 

[Yallo42]

lol I just realized you can react to their DI (about 20 frames to react on bowser) so if you're good you can hit every time.

 

[APESAUCE]

grounded side b to jab or dtilt is awesome. also if u read their tech u can immediately hit them with a wizards foot. get creative there a ALOT of options.

 

[Yallo42]

grounded side b to jab or dtilt is awesome. also if u read their tech u can immediately hit them with a wizards foot. get creative there a ALOT of options.

I'm pretty sure Dair and Flame Choke are always the best options from grounded flame choke. Dair covers no tech and neutral tech, does a ton of damage, leads into combos at low% and is a good finisher. You can also hit tech rolls with Dair, but if they roll to the edge flame choke may be a better choice (especially if they are at high, but no KO percent) because that really limits their options.

 

[CORY]

I'm pretty sure Dair and Flame Choke are always the best options from grounded flame choke. Dair covers no tech and neutral tech, does a ton of damage, leads into combos at low% and is a good finisher. You can also hit tech rolls with Dair, but if they roll to the edge flame choke may be a better choice (especially if they are at high, but no KO percent) because that really limits their options.

i feel like dtilt and dsmash are both really good followups to afc (dsmash is pretty good for gfc, as well, something i need to work into my game a bit more). dtilt for the reasons you stated and dsmash because of option coverage, especially on smaller platforms and how it launches pretty well. at least if you're more banking on option coverage and not as much a hard read (or guaranteed followup).

 

[Yallo42]

i feel like dtilt and dsmash are both really good followups to afc (dsmash is pretty good for gfc, as well, something i need to work into my game a bit more). dtilt for the reasons you stated and dsmash because of option coverage, especially on smaller platforms and how it launches pretty well. at least if you're more banking on option coverage and not as much a hard read (or guaranteed followup).

uh...Dsmash can't even hit after afc though (unless they don't tech obviously, but why would you use Dsmash when there are guaranteed followups), and anyone that can be hit by dtilt can also be grabbed. Can you explain why dtilt and dsmash are better than dair for gfc? Dair and dsmash both do 22% damage, cover the same options, and have about the same endlag, but dair sends them straight up, so it is easier to combo and KOs earlier. Dtilt only covers no tech, and if they neutral tech, they can hit you. Also, dtilt can maybe combo into fair, but dair combos into grab, which can chain grab and combo into fair or bair or uair. Also how/why are you using gfc on a small platform?

 

[CORY]

A lot of people use dsmash as a raw first option because it covers a lot of options and sets up well for followups. It's not necessarily better than a guaranteed option, if you have one, but for pure "I want to cover as many options as possible" it works really well.

It's also active earlier (taking jumpsquat into account) and longer than dair, and it has a bigger hitbox spread than dair. Dair is a hard read option and better at that point than dsmash, they fill different roles.

Dtilt is a good option coverage because it's quick, relatively safe, and has solid range (along with potential to get a guaranteed dtilt on certain characters).

 

[Yallo42]

A lot of people use dsmash as a raw first option because it covers a lot of options and sets up well for followups. It's not necessarily better than a guaranteed option, if you have one, but for pure "I want to cover as many options as possible" it works really well.

It's also active earlier (taking jumpsquat into account) and longer than dair, and it has a bigger hitbox spread than dair. Dair is a hard read option and better at that point than dsmash, they fill different roles.

Dtilt is a good option coverage because it's quick, relatively safe, and has solid range (along with potential to get a guaranteed dtilt on certain characters).

"It's not necessarily better than a guaranteed option, if you have one" you have a guaranteed option on all characters except spacies, and on spacies it is better to just use grounded flame choke.
"use dsmash as a raw first option because it covers a lot of options" it covers neutral tech and no tech on gfc, same as dair, and it covers only no tech on afc. So yeah, it's really not that good for covering options. "sets up well for followups" not as well as dair.
"It's also active earlier (taking jumpsquat into account) and longer than dair" Dair's hitbox is literally perfect for gfc: if you jump and dair as soon as possible after gfc, dair will hit no tech before they can get up attack or roll, and it lasts just long enough to hit neutral tech. It can hit tech roll too, just dash jump dair, but of course you won't hit no tech or neutral tech.
ok, dtilt... it doesn't matter if it's quick because we're talking about flame choke follow ups, it's not relatively safe because if they neutral tech they can grab you, it doesn't matter that it has good range because we're talking about flame choke follow ups, and im guessing "potential guaranteed dtilt" was a typo.
"Dair is a hard read option" *facepalm* ALL follow ups to gfc are reads! Sorry, but it drives me crazy when people say gfc has follow ups on reaction

 

[CORY]

finally stopped being lazy and started hard testing afc stuff.

figured out the reverse angle. i think yallo may have been trying to explain it, but it wasn't super clear to me at the times, but that's up to the opponent. if they hold behind you from the start, they pop up behind you, otherwise nothing causes them to fly forward (along with holding forward).

the oddity, however, is that the reverse angle seems to be making certain characters hit the floor 2 frames sooner than the forward di. but not all of them. so far it's been lucario and lucas, link had the same air time either way. so, i'm gonna have to go back and retest everyone with these changes so i can see who has different timings...

"It's not necessarily better than a guaranteed option, if you have one" you have a guaranteed option on all characters except spacies, and on spacies it is better to just use grounded flame choke.
"use dsmash as a raw first option because it covers a lot of options" it covers neutral tech and no tech on gfc, same as dair, and it covers only no tech on afc. So yeah, it's really not that good for covering options. "sets up well for followups" not as well as dair.
"It's also active earlier (taking jumpsquat into account) and longer than dair" Dair's hitbox is literally perfect for gfc: if you jump and dair as soon as possible after gfc, dair will hit no tech before they can get up attack or roll, and it lasts just long enough to hit neutral tech. It can hit tech roll too, just dash jump dair, but of course you won't hit no tech or neutral tech.
ok, dtilt... it doesn't matter if it's quick because we're talking about flame choke follow ups, it's not relatively safe because if they neutral tech they can grab you, it doesn't matter that it has good range because we're talking about flame choke follow ups, and im guessing "potential guaranteed dtilt" was a typo.
"Dair is a hard read option" *facepalm* ALL follow ups to gfc are reads! Sorry, but it drives me crazy when people say gfc has follow ups on reaction

in regards to this: hard read as in you pick a direction and you jump and you dair. it doesn't cover as many options. if you dsmash, especially if you're near one edge or on a platform, they're more likely to get caught by a kick, since it covers more space. dair can only cover below and in the chosen drifting direction.

i didn't say gfc had guaranteed followups, at that point i was talking about afc. afc-dsmash is useful as a first time raw option to cover the opponent and see what they like to do while potentially still getting something out of it. dtilt covers no tech (and tech in place? i can't remember... went and messed with it in training mode. ganon has 11 frames of end lag after you do the release on the opponent for gfc, so dtilt doesn't cover both tech in place/no tech with the same timing. afc is going to be character dependent, due to variable float times).

for afc, dtilt is safe because it covers options for you without putting you as far out (in case you miss time the option you chose) and is quicker than the dsmash. a reset to neutral isn't an ideal outcome, but it's better than missing the timing on your read, wizkicking just slightly in front of the opponent's roll and getting hit out of your endlag.

 

[Yallo42]

Thanks for the great reply. However, I still don't understand how Dsmash is better than dair for gfc, also if you're near an edge and gfc>dair and they roll to the edge (and dair misses) I think you can jab or grab them while they're still in lag. Also how are you landing gfc on a small platform? Wouldn't it be faster and better to just grab? Oh and dtilt doesn't cover tech in place, in fact if they tech in place dtilt misses and they get a free hit on you. Plus dtilt is weaker than dair, so why would you ever use it to follow up gfc? For afc I think grab is best if they have enough airtime for it to be possible, if not I always jab.

 

[redcometchar]

You can footstool some characters out of aeiral side b. Kinda niche but whatevs.

 

[redcometchar]

on spacies it is better to just use grounded flame choke.

Wat

 

[CORY]

Wat

With fox, definitely. He hits the ground and can tech 2 frames before you recover from your animation, lowering the time you have available to do stuff. The other species land 2 frames after you recover, which isn't as bad, but is too early to do anything with. I don't know how soon they hit the ground out of gfc, though. Ganon has 11 frames of recovery after the final explosion on gfc and the couple characters I did some checking on all seemed to hit the ground frame 10 or frame 11 after that explosion (which is what releases them).

If falco and wolf are the same, even at frame 11, you get more time on your action with afc. I'll have to look at their airtime sometime tmrw to see how it looks.

 

[redcometchar]

With fox, definitely. He hits the ground and can tech 2 frames before you recover from your animation, lowering the time you have available to do stuff. The other species land 2 frames after you recover, which isn't as bad, but is too early to do anything with. I don't know how soon they hit the ground out of gfc, though. Ganon has 11 frames of recovery after the final explosion on gfc and the couple characters I did some checking on all seemed to hit the ground frame 10 or frame 11 after that explosion (which is what releases them).

If falco and wolf are the same, even at frame 11, you get more time on your action with afc. I'll have to look at their airtime sometime tmrw to see how it looks.

Ok, thought gfc took longer to finish.

 

[CORY]

ok, so messing around even more with afc, the small hits after you slam them into the ground but before you release them are sdi-able. this means the opponent can do weird stuff like sdi straight up/down, which alters the airtime even more... oddly, messing around and sdi-ing down added a frame to link's airtime, same as sdi-ing up, whereas just straight sdi-ing forward/backward doesn't change the air time (and not doing any di whatsoever makes you bounce behind ganon with 8 frames of airtime).

 

[bubbaking]

I'm gonna jump on the Wizkick train here. I actually really like Wizkick as an option at medium-high %'s because it covers 3 out of 4 options on tech-chases if you time it properly, and it's a 50-50 on the really floaty characters. The other benefit is that it's strong and sends the opponent offstage for an edgeguard (also, spacees are light so they can die early to it). On plats, I believe it can cover all the options if timed properly, but I'm not as sure about that one.

Oh and dtilt doesn't cover tech in place, in fact if they tech in place dtilt misses and they get a free hit on you.

Can't you just delay the dtilt then? If that's the case, CORY did say that different timing is required for the two options.

 

[Yallo42]

Can't you just delay the dtilt then? If that's the case, CORY did say that different timing is required for the two options.

Yes, you can delay the dtilt to hit neutral tech, but if you do so then if they don't tech then you will not hit. As I've said many times now, dair will always hit no tech and neutral tech and does more damage, combos better, and KOs better.

Never use dtilt after grounded flame choke because dair is always better.

 

[bubbaking]

Dair may not combo floaties at mid-high %'s like dtilt can, though. Things are rarely in just black and white.

 

[Yallo42]

Dair may not combo floaties at mid-high %'s like dtilt can, though. Things are rarely in just black and white.

So at a specific percent on floaty characters you have a 1/4 chance (1/3 with dair btw) to hit with dtilt and combo into a uair if their DI is bad, equaling about 3% more damage than dair. *smh* Guys, it's just not practical.

 

[bubbaking]

I mean, no, that's not exactly what I was getting at. You could combo into nair which could combo into another nair or uair, which ends up being a lot more damage than the dair with no follow-ups. For instance, I would prefer the dtilt-starter string on Zelda at those awkward %'s because it's hard to combo her otherwise.

Lolz, I'm not saying that dair isn't better most of the time. I'm saying that there are times when going for the dtilt can still pay off.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ Y Yallo42

You can definitely hit tech in place and miss tech with a dtilt. Just tested like half the cast and they were all in the same ball park, maybe there are some that aren't (feel free to prove me wrong, I doubt it though), but all that I tested had around 25-26 frames of required miss tech animation before they could chose an option (get up attack, stand, or roll either direction, all of which grant invincibility on frame one it appears). Since tech in place has universal frame data of invincibility 1-20, vulnerable 21-26, there is a window (about 5-6 frames) where you can hit both. Maybe it just feels easier (dair is active for 5 frames while dtilt is only active for 3), but tech in place and miss tech can be covered with the same option. For characters with little movement in the first 26 or so frames (think Squirtle), dtilt also has the reach to hit one of the tech rolls. This is dependent on DI and such, but it is very possible to cover 3 of the 4 tech options with moves like Dtilt, dsmash, and wizards foot. I am not qualified to talk about followups or usefulness of these moves once you land them, but they cover more options then dair does on characters with bad tech rolls. To clarify, this could be for either aerial or grounded. If they are in a tech situation from it and you have the frame advantage, you can probably set up these moves.

As for the whole giving up guaranteed damage debate, from a tech chasing perspective, if you can set up a repeatable scenario where tech in place/miss tech are always covered as well as one of the rolls (and the in place options being punished harder because the dtilt hit close so you can combo better), they will be conditioned to never choose that option, making the hard reads on the rolls safer and easier later on. Thats why dsmash/dtilt are good options if they can hit a tech roll. Whether letting them tech, foregoing the guaranteed jab/whatever, for afc is a different discussion.

@ CORY

About the weird less air time thing, I noticed that too. When you do it, does it look like they hit the ground way quicker than they should have? Also see if it happens with only one direction (so if you afc at them from the other side and di behind, which airtime do they have?). I will try to test later, but I noticed this with Meta Knight back throw on fox. One direction in debug I kept missing my tech input because he just jolted to the ground quicker, making him have less air time and causing me to miss my tech input. Maybe asking Magus or someone similar if this is a known issue?