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Optimal boost kick out of shield list?

pichuthedk

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I was kinda tinkering and come to the conclusion, that it might be a alot easier to learn when or what to react to with JC boost kicks out of shield if we had a list by character to character basis.

Is there anychance we can probably get around to something like this?

I feel like alot of the time I'm holding that boost kick out of fear from the rco/stock losses if it's thrown out carelessly.

I can probably start on it myself but [insert irrelevant johns] xD.
 

Dr. Tuen

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My graduation schedule is actually forming up so I think I can start putting my chips into projects... but just to be safe: this is subject to plus/minus (probably plus) a couple months, heh. But hey, we're some ill-defined number of months away from Dr. Tuen! Woo.

ANYWAYS. If schedules go how it's currently planned, I'll be done with school (or at least done writing the dissertation) at the end of June. I will then endeavor to do EVERYTHING I CAN to prepare for EVO, as I am going via the generosity of some friends of mine. This will include a list of moves we can boost kick and a list of moves we can shield grab.

While on that subject, I want to learn all the relevant start/end % for various ladder combos (especially ones that start with nair instead of grab). I want to index the characters that fall under special combo status (the downsmash combo via Trifroze) and make accommodations for rage, if possible. The idea is to put this all together into a spreadsheet or a series of images (cards?) you could have on your phone to refer to before a match. This is personally relevant because I have a memory condition, and while general principles are fine by me, nuances slip too easily.

I don't know if I can complete or release any of that before EVO, but that's the idea.
 

pichuthedk

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My graduation schedule is actually forming up so I think I can start putting my chips into projects... but just to be safe: this is subject to plus/minus (probably plus) a couple months, heh. But hey, we're some ill-defined number of months away from Dr. Tuen! Woo.

ANYWAYS. If schedules go how it's currently planned, I'll be done with school (or at least done writing the dissertation) at the end of June. I will then endeavor to do EVERYTHING I CAN to prepare for EVO, as I am going via the generosity of some friends of mine. This will include a list of moves we can boost kick and a list of moves we can shield grab.

While on that subject, I want to learn all the relevant start/end % for various ladder combos (especially ones that start with nair instead of grab). I want to index the characters that fall under special combo status (the downsmash combo via Trifroze) and make accommodations for rage, if possible. The idea is to put this all together into a spreadsheet or a series of images (cards?) you could have on your phone to refer to before a match. This is personally relevant because I have a memory condition, and while general principles are fine by me, nuances slip too easily.

I don't know if I can complete or release any of that before EVO, but that's the idea.
Bro first off that's amazing I...no we are all glad to hear it that's amazing stuff.

Secondly do you need any of us to do anything to help you get started aside from the ladder data dump? Delving into this things as well might help me develop a better understanding of the things I shouldn't take for granted or let slip by me due to uncertainty.

And lastly my short term memory is so bad man that's like the story of my life and it keeps me anchored to the mid level that I'be been at forever.
 
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skoolzout1

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This sounds like an amazing idea. Please feel free to ask us all for help. I for one would be happy to contribute. You should just start a thread with the current things you're testing at the moment and you could have a group of people instead of just yourself, all testing the same thing on different characters for example to make the process go quicker.

If I may also add, I brought up the topic of using frame-syncs a while ago, and I showed how they could be used to either aid combos and make them last longer, or create entirely new combos altogether. Maybe we could look into that aswell. I think a lot of people think frame-syncs are kind of a scary idea since they are a 1 frame trick but I've come to be able to do them almost on demand as needed with just a little bit of practise at it every day. It would be cool if we could find a zero to death that required frame syncs

Just my thoughts. But again please feel free to ask me for contributions, I'd love to help out on this
 
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pichuthedk

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This sounds like an amazing idea. Please feel free to ask us all for help. I for one would be happy to contribute. You should just start a thread with the current things you're testing at the moment and you could have a group of people instead of just yourself, all testing the same thing on different characters for example to make the process go quicker.

If I may also add, I brought up the topic of using frame-syncs a while ago, and I showed how they could be used to either aid combos and make them last longer, or create entirely new combos altogether. Maybe we could look into that aswell. I think a lot of people think frame-syncs are kind of a scary idea since they are a 1 frame trick but I've come to be able to do them almost on demand as needed with just a little bit of practise at it every day. It would be cool if we could find a zero to death that required frame syncs

Just my thoughts. But again please feel free to ask me for contributions, I'd love to help out on this

What about frame synced things such as nair on shield is that at all possibly a way to make hitting people's shields safer? I guess like you hit their shield at the same time your landing and get to jab pretty much as soon as you hit it?



I have to look into it more but I think my brain is swelling up from this mid level wall I've been banging my head trying to scale it...
 

Dr. Tuen

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Hey all, thanks for the offers to help. I'll let you all know when the project gets started. Like I said, defense first. Here's a few thoughts though:

1. We'll have to test everything with DI, since most people at EVO level competition will know to DI away from the feared death combos.

2. There's a lot of alternate conditions to consider. Nair combo starter, dsmash combo starter, platform extensions... etc. They'll have to be categorized and tested individually.

3. Rage. It'll likely have to be estimated, but using an easy condition (like... no DI dthrow combo) should yield an adjustment factor that could be used as a rough rule of thumb for the others. The phenomenon itself could probably use more definitive testing, but that's a whole other research project.

4. Limited Combos. Stuff like the dsmash combos on fast fallers or the various paralyzer lock setups. Also, nair to flip kick, or dsmash to nair to flip kick.

What about frame synced things such as nair on shield is that at all possibly a way to make hitting people's shields safer? I guess like you hit their shield at the same time your landing and get to jab pretty much as soon as you hit it?
Frame syncs happen because your character still falls during attacker hitlag. This phenomenon, however, is simply not present when you hit someone's shield. So... frame syncs on shield are not possible. Here's something that is possible:

Nair to flip kick option select:

Input: Nair as close to the ground as possible, flip kick quickly after the nair input.

Result 1: Normal nair or nair on shield. This yields... nair. That's it. The normal hitlag + landing lag combination will erase the flip kick input.

Result 2: Frame synced nair. This yields nair into a buffered flip kick. This makes the nair to flip kick combination work at substantially lower percents.

Notes: This makes the prospect of trying for a flip kick after nair much safer. However! There is a sort of 3rd result:

Result 3: Whiffed nair. This yields a flip kick with your opponent at full advantage.

So, in the incarnation that I have layed out here, it's still somewhat risky if you didn't hit your opponent at all. I'll continue to work it out and see if there isn't something better that can be concocted (like the boost kick triple option select video I posted a while back).

=======
=======

This is turning out to be a big research dump. Some is likely not new, but oh well. This is what I've been working on, and trying to get frame-data-based evidence to back up.

I'm continuing my research on flip kicks and have been really trying to understand ledge cancels. I confirmed that the nair you get out of ledge cancelled flip kicks is indeed a result of the buffering system. If the kick input is hit 10 or fewer frames from your ledge cancel, the game will automatically use that input as reason to buffer a nair. So, edge cancels should be done a little bit earlier to prevent that (note: I tried to use a buffered platform edge cancelled flip kick nair to set up a guaranteed frame sync... but even fast falling on the first nair frame doesn't get you to the ground fast enough. Oh well. Would have been cool).

I have also found that the various methods to prevent flip kick momentum (c-stick + control stick in opposing directions, or kick in then immediately hit the outward direction) are not viable when buffering the kick. I got curious because buffered kicks are high enough to punish ledge-height (ish) bouncing fish. If you miss, however, you fly into the void.

Ledge cancels also lead to Hype Kick III. Which is an intense ledge setup to yield multiple opportunities to edge guard a ledge-snapping opponent. Here are the steps:

1. Stand on stage at a distance appropriate for a ledge cancelled flip kick.
2. Perform the ledge cancelled flip kick at a timing you believe will hit the 2-frame vulnerability window
2a. If you hit that, congrats, they're likely dead.
3. Ledge cancel
4. Turnaround side B.
4a. If you ledge trump your opponent, release the ledge (down or away) and back air.
4b. If your opponent is out of jumps or is at high percent, congrats, they're likely dead.
5. Ledge release (down), jump, nair.
5a. Since tether grabbers have a minimum ledge hold time of 0 frames, you will make it in time to punish ledge attack, ledge roll, and normal stand.
5b. Free nair can lead to a modified ladder combo, or a flip kick. Congrats on the free damage and/or death.
5c. In the case of a ledge jump, you may be able to ledge jump boost kick. I haven't tested that.

So yeah. It's a fun one! I've pulled it off exactly zero times. I think it might be useful against cloud, with this not-snap friendly recovery.

======
======

Lastly, I've been looking at paralyzer locking. At 29% on Cloud (adjust for weight on others), you can nair and fire a small paralyzer shot for a chance at a lock if they don't tech. If they fail to tech, do this (includes startup steps):

1. Nair.
2. Small paralyzer shot
3. Fox Trot
4. Dsmash
5. Grab (buffered!)
6. Down throw
7. Up air
8. Jump (gap closer)
9. Boost Kick

Without survival DI, this kills. With survival DI, this still deals substantial amounts of damage. The getup animation from a lock continues even if you hit with down smash, but when done correctly (I counted in 1/4 frame advance mode) your foe only gets 1 frame to do something before the grab comes out. Only frame 1 invulnerability will prevent the grab, and most characters do not possess that.

Here's the big issue: the initial nair --> paralyzer shot. This is why it's a situational mixup. It's not even because of the dependence on the failed tech, there are other holes. If they DI toward you, they yield themselves enough air time to jump away. If they DI away from you, they get away from the paralyzer shot. You MAY be able to switch the fox trot and paralyzer shot and still make the window, but that requires more testing. If that were true, the only non-tech escape would be to DI IN and jump.

I'm also looking at prattack setups (forcing a fall from a platform), but only paralyzer causes that, and it's already a very situational projectile.

======
======

Lastly: footstools.

My investigation is far from complete, but it doesn't look great. I tried doing low-to-the-ground footstools to flip kick (since that cancels upward jump momentum), but the flip doesn't reach the ground fast enough (~29+ frames, when the footstool flop is ~26 frames long). I also knocked an opponent prone and flip jumped them to see if it would jab lock and it doesn't. The idea came from this tweet which demonstrates the potential for bury-property moves to infinitely lock someone. So my idea was to cause a lock, flip jump to it, jump on the character, land, do something.

Note to self: instead of testing with an arbitrary knockdown, try nair, paralyzer shot, flip jump.

Anyways. As the note implies, I'm unsure of that result, and it requires more testing.

======
======

So, I accidentally hijacked that. Uhh. Enjoy! I'll be sure to update when I start the combo characterization project!

-Tuen
 

andrebound

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Nice work as always Tuen, knowing exactly what moves we can actually shield grab would be really good and the flip kick ledge cancel -> ledge trump option sounds really cool, I'm actually gonna start using it.
 

Dr. Tuen

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Nice work as always Tuen, knowing exactly what moves we can actually shield grab would be really good and the flip kick ledge cancel -> ledge trump option sounds really cool, I'm actually gonna start using it.
Get it on video if you get it! I haven't managed it yet, and it'd be cool to see in action~
 

skoolzout1

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Awesome stuff and awesome ideas! I've really been trying to find potential for zero to deaths with frame syncs at low percents... I've always felt that there must be some way that ZSS could zero to death more than just fast fallers, but I've never found a way. Until I started looking into frame syncs.. I keep bringing them up but I'm kind of obsessed with them right now... I'm not sure the amount of frames you gain from frame syncing... But I've noticed it's enough to cause nair to downsmash to be a true combo on many characters at 0 or close to 0. Allowing for many follow ups which I have yet to optimize... In my frame sync thread, I updated it to include a new setup I found with frame synced Bair... I demonstrated it killing greninja at 25 ish percent I believe.. I've always thrown out the flip kick after a Bair sometime as a mixup because it can lead into a spike if they di wrong and don't react.. But with frame syncs it kills really early because the base knockback is much higher than nair allowing it to link into FK really early..


Finally.. I'd just like to say once again I'd be happy to do any testing that needs a test dummy. I'm willing to do voice call or anything if needed
 

pichuthedk

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Dr. Tuen Dr. Tuen that swap of the paralyzer and fox trot is possible in a way but like you said DI dependent, However if we do get that risky approach hoping they fail the tech it actually ends up being the optimal punish. Because I already told Take 5 this which he later demonstrated in his 4th aerial queen video.

Just like brawl when you reset someone with paralyzer up close you can get 2 downsmashes, one when they bounce off the ground and the other when they stand up the timing lines up pretty much perfectly to go and just input it one after another.
Doing something like this based on what you mentioned involving prattacks lets us potential just get a free stock from as low as like 15% with some planning.

skoolzout1 skoolzout1 I have been tinkering with an idea involving fast fallers from down smash but it might have to be super heavy mofos like bowser and ddd I just tested it and i can't get it to say true but it's kinda intriguing anyways.

I just tried on bowser the following.
1.down smash sweet spot
2.buffered sh zair
3. downsmash
4.buffered sh zair again
5. downsmash which brought him to the edge
6. flip jump kick.

If at the very least would be a nice mixup for baiting a bad reaction from them.

i also alternatively just tried
downsmash
nair
downsmash
zair
downsmash
FJK or nair -> FJK.


Edit: I just did the initial down smash ->nair after words i did approaching sh zair -> downsmash x 3 times ->FJK spike i ended it with 60% on DDD and he died. I like to test this since It more then likely isn't true.
 
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skoolzout1

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pichuthedk pichuthedk

You're first idea for a combo is something I experimented with as well.. Well at least the idea of using Zair after down smash near 0 percent.. I wasn't too fond of the idea of zair as it can be near impossible to secure a follow up afterwords on short characters..
I found down smash to immediate rar Bair was much better.. It's hard to do sometimes I found because you have no time to waste, but it leads into a guaranteed grab I believe.. (Haven't tested with DI)

I thought if someone got really good at the rar Bair after dsmash, then maybe grounded b reverse paralyzer would be a good mix up for a jab reset, since Bair at low percents may potentially be hard to tech with no di... But these are just ideas.. Not something I really ever do but it seemed like a cool idea at the time
 
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pichuthedk

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pichuthedk pichuthedk

You're first idea for a combo is something I experimented with as well.. Well at least the idea of using Zair after down smash near 0 percent.. I wasn't too fond of the idea of zair as it can be near impossible to secure a follow up afterwords on short characters..
I found down smash to immediate rar Bair was much better.. It's hard to do sometimes I found because you have no time to waste, but it leads into a guaranteed grab I believe.. (Haven't tested with DI)

I thought if someone got really good at the rar Bair after dsmash, then maybe grounded b reverse paralyzer would be a good mix up for a jab reset, since Bair at low percents may potentially be hard to tech with no di... But these are just ideas.. Not something I really ever do but it seemed like a cool idea at the time
yeah I basically looked at those combos for a longer time then I should have . the best I got was
down smash(or the x2 lock at 0%)
nair-> downsmash
then a slightly delayed jump so that you can zair at a low enough point so they can't jump before the ground but high enough so you can actualy get it out there without just being stopped from landing.
after wards another downsmash -> immediate grab for our down through double up air up b combo.

It killed bowser a couple times on fd with it but he obvious was doing no or very bad di.
 
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Dr. Tuen

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OK, I finally got one done. Well, done-ish, pending any missed combo opportunities.

Mario
Dthrow, uair x2, up B - 31 to 51 (DI up and away, best escape DI, though not best survival DI... I think)
Dthrow, uair 1x, jump, upB - 31 to 70 (Same DI tested)
Nair, uair 2x, upB - 53 to 56 (DI away)
Nair, uair 1x, upB - 53 to 63 (DI away)
Nair, uair, jump, upB - 64 to 80 (DI away, READ OPTION. Not a combo, but if the uair hits, the rest connects)
Nair, flip kick - 56 to 63 (DI away)

Could be done up in an image like this:



So. Did I miss anything? I may prioritize characters I'm likely to see at EVO, now that beta brackets are up.
 
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pichuthedk

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OK, I finally got one done. Well, done-ish, pending any missed combo opportunities.

Mario
Dthrow, uair x2, up B - 31 to 51 (DI up and away, best escape DI, though not best survival DI... I think)
Dthrow, uair 1x, jump, upB - 31 to 70 (Same DI tested)
Nair, uair 2x, upB - 53 to 56 (DI away)
Nair, uair 1x, upB - 53 to 63 (DI away)
Nair, uair, jump, upB - 64 to 80 (DI away, READ OPTION. Not a combo, but if the uair hits, the rest connects)
Nair, flip kick - 56 to 63 (DI away)

Could be done up in an image like this:



So. Did I miss anything? I may prioritize characters I'm likely to see at EVO, now that beta brackets are up.
Nice uhh I feel like you'll see alot of ryus shieks and diddys still prob some Marios.

Like aren't people now just using the chars with a strong neutral since everyone has sorta started adapting to how the neutral in this game is.

Doesn't matter how well I do I will always struggle vs those better neutral game chars.
 
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Dr. Tuen

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Nice uhh I feel like you'll see alot of ryus shieks and diddys still prob some Marios.

Like aren't people now just using the chars with a strong neutral since everyone has sorta started adapting to how the neutral in this game is.

Doesn't matter how well I do I will always struggle vs those better neutral game chars.
I'm trying to research the players in my pool, now that beta pools are released. So far, I've confirmed a notable Yoshi, but I'd have to make it to that pool's finals to face him... Hmmm.

I also need to add move safety to this data card. This would include the whole point of this thread: boost kick out of shield. Alongside shield grabs and the like.
 

pichuthedk

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I'm trying to research the players in my pool, now that beta pools are released. So far, I've confirmed a notable Yoshi, but I'd have to make it to that pool's finals to face him... Hmmm.

I also need to add move safety to this data card. This would include the whole point of this thread: boost kick out of shield. Alongside shield grabs and the like.
Take your time bro you put in a lot of work for us as it is.

In terms of yoshi though ,literally an 11+ year yoshi main told me that we just need to space alot of nairs and up airs in that mu.
"It is obnoxious as ****" he told me.
 

Dr. Tuen

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Take your time bro you put in a lot of work for us as it is.

In terms of yoshi though ,literally an 11+ year yoshi main told me that we just need to space alot of nairs and up airs in that mu.
"It is obnoxious as ****" he told me.
No worries, I have a set vacation that starts over the weekend and lasts through EVO. I'll have some time then to attack some relevant data. Thanks for the advice though, I'll add it to the page of notes I've already written about the guy :-D.

This thread is sorta getting general... but I'm going to also look into this "untechable reeling animation" that's been brought up recently on the competitive discussion board. Characters over 100% struck by moves that launch at 71 degrees or less are subject to a 30% chance (% under review) of entering an animation that cannot be teched. ZSS' zair seems like a perfect candidate for utilizing this. Same with the first hit of forward air. It's a chance-based hit confirm, but if you identify the reeling animation, some follow ups may become guaranteed. Maybe Fair1, dsmash, boost kick? I'll be checking that out this weekend!
 

skoolzout1

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No worries, I have a set vacation that starts over the weekend and lasts through EVO. I'll have some time then to attack some relevant data. Thanks for the advice though, I'll add it to the page of notes I've already written about the guy :-D.

This thread is sorta getting general... but I'm going to also look into this "untechable reeling animation" that's been brought up recently on the competitive discussion board. Characters over 100% struck by moves that launch at 71 degrees or less are subject to a 30% chance (% under review) of entering an animation that cannot be teched. ZSS' zair seems like a perfect candidate for utilizing this. Same with the first hit of forward air. It's a chance-based hit confirm, but if you identify the reeling animation, some follow ups may become guaranteed. Maybe Fair1, dsmash, boost kick? I'll be checking that out this weekend!
First of all great work on the Mario table. I think it'd be awesome if you could expand on the things you've got so far and make a base template and go through it for all characters. It's too late at night for me to think of any key things to add right now. But I'll think of some notable things to add maybe, and of course that's open for anyone's ideas.

Secondly, where is this main thread talking about a new untechable state? And what makes you think zair would be good for whatever causes this? If I could do some more reading on it id be wiling to sit down and mess with it for some time trying to find some things if it ends up being maybe even slightly viable.
 

Dr. Tuen

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First of all great work on the Mario table. I think it'd be awesome if you could expand on the things you've got so far and make a base template and go through it for all characters. It's too late at night for me to think of any key things to add right now. But I'll think of some notable things to add maybe, and of course that's open for anyone's ideas.

Secondly, where is this main thread talking about a new untechable state? And what makes you think zair would be good for whatever causes this? If I could do some more reading on it id be wiling to sit down and mess with it for some time trying to find some things if it ends up being maybe even slightly viable.
Thanks for your interest in this work. Right now, I'm still sorting through what might be useful to add to a table like this, so that it may still function as a quick-reference. Due to it being in mid-development, I don't yet have a useful template available. In any case, a table like this is easy to make in excel, and all of the number contained within are manually tested. Values for shield safety will be calculated, likely using the calculator on the Kurogane hammer website.

As I said in the post you quoted, the thread on the untechable state is on the competitive discussion board for Smash 4. More specifically, that thread is right here.
 

skoolzout1

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Thanks for your interest in this work. Right now, I'm still sorting through what might be useful to add to a table like this, so that it may still function as a quick-reference. Due to it being in mid-development, I don't yet have a useful template available. In any case, a table like this is easy to make in excel, and all of the number contained within are manually tested. Values for shield safety will be calculated, likely using the calculator on the Kurogane hammer website.

As I said in the post you quoted, the thread on the untechable state is on the competitive discussion board for Smash 4. More specifically, that thread is right here.
Alright, sorry for being dumb and not being able to find the thread without asking :p nonetheless that seems super cool! From what I can tell this "reeling" animation is the animation of your character spinning, that often happens when you're sent flying at high percents. But in this case it happens with low knockback moves... And I'm guessing it's untechable because the game never planned for you to be in this spinning state and hit the ground soon after? Idk. I can't tell why it may happen and since its chance based it seems, no one likely knows. But I'll take a look at some things with it and see if I can replicate today
 

skoolzout1

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hmmmm so doing some experimenting, I would say zair is almost out of the question until late percents, it only has a chance to put them into this state around 130-145 ish depending on character size and weight. It works at 100 only if you hit the sweet spot which isnt useful anyways because it's the last frame of the move and it's sooo far away.

I also happened to discover by accident that down angled Ftilt can cause this sometimes. It only happens from what I've seen, If you get the close up hit box that sends your opponent behind you...

Regardless Fair 1 seems the best. Doesn't matter where you hit it, after 100 it has a chance to cause the spinning state...

As far as follow ups, I've noticed that Paralyzer jab reset becomes easier for some reason... I have no idea why, just seems like the bounce higher off the ground or something, whatever the reason is, it's definitley easier,

However the untechable state isn't guaranteed on all characters either, I haven't tested many characters at this point, but the best odds of making it untechable are if they DI down, or sometimes Away. DI'ing In gives them the best chance of at least being able to tech..

Soooo yeah. I'd recommend either paralyzer jab reset into dsmash but only if you're sure you land the fair will you have time for paralyzer... Either that or foxtrot dsmash is good, or if it ends up being the tech able version and they still miss their tech (which is very possible) you can just go for jump cancel upB
 

pichuthedk

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hmmmm so doing some experimenting, I would say zair is almost out of the question until late percents, it only has a chance to put them into this state around 130-145 ish depending on character size and weight. It works at 100 only if you hit the sweet spot which isnt useful anyways because it's the last frame of the move and it's sooo far away.

I also happened to discover by accident that down angled Ftilt can cause this sometimes. It only happens from what I've seen, If you get the close up hit box that sends your opponent behind you...

Regardless Fair 1 seems the best. Doesn't matter where you hit it, after 100 it has a chance to cause the spinning state...

As far as follow ups, I've noticed that Paralyzer jab reset becomes easier for some reason... I have no idea why, just seems like the bounce higher off the ground or something, whatever the reason is, it's definitley easier,

However the untechable state isn't guaranteed on all characters either, I haven't tested many characters at this point, but the best odds of making it untechable are if they DI down, or sometimes Away. DI'ing In gives them the best chance of at least being able to tech..

Soooo yeah. I'd recommend either paralyzer jab reset into dsmash but only if you're sure you land the fair will you have time for paralyzer... Either that or foxtrot dsmash is good, or if it ends up being the tech able version and they still miss their tech (which is very possible) you can just go for jump cancel upB
Paralyzer is probably best best because you get 2 down smashes if your close enough.

I think I might have to take a look into this stuff as well.

It might make matches easier in regards to you can just switch from an aggro type to spacing type of zss while you go about setting this up for kills (like if you struggled to kill and are the verge of getting rage killed yourself)
 
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