Opinions on Wario's dash grab?

[arwildcats09]

After playing from 2.5 to now, and deciding on Wario as a main, I still have not developed a stable opinion on Wario's dash grab. Sometimes I love it, and sometimes I just want it to be a normal dash grab. It's a good mixup, but a lot of times (to me, at least) it just feels far too easily punished.
What does everyone else think?

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

anyone who sees warios forward b animation and knows the matchup will just straight up hit wario with an aerial. to them it does not matter if you do a forward b or dash-grab.

 

[Jreed420]

I think it's useful for little dash dance grabs for full charged forward throw other than that I'm chompin :o

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

For people who are having trouble with Wario's Dash Grab, try using Wario's jump canceled grab instead. It will allow you to sprint at full speed, and then throw out a "dash grab" that doesn't leave you as vulnerable. Sure, it isn't the same thing as a normal dash grab, but it's another option for those who are willing to try it.

Personally, I really like Wario's Dash Grab. It allows me to catch my opponent off-guard from time to time. And if people are expecting me to use a dash grab, I simply do a jump canceled grab instead, or I leap into the air and approach them with Wario's Chomp special. That is essentially three different grabbing options I have to choose from when approaching an opponent, and each of them have their own uses and downsides, so Wario's Dash Grab never really bothers me because I have a variety of options to choose from. Not to mention there is pivot grabbing as well.

Just don't leave yourself vulnerable by mixing up your strategies, and try to read whenever the opponent is vulnerable to a Dash Grab. It is definitely a move that you shouldn't spam, and you should only use it maybe once every stock or two stocks. And if grabbing doesn't work, switch to a different strategy until you feel like it would be a good option to use again.

I hope this helps.

 

[SixSaw]

You can always JCgrab if you don't want the mixup. I'll take more options over less any day.

Also you really should not be mixing up dash grab with sideB unless the opponent will not have time to do anything other than shield. PRetty situational, but again, better than nothing.

 

[DMG]

I don't like his dash grab. I usually get it from messing up a JC Grab by grabbing too fast. This ****s me over when it comes to sorta frame tight CG's that are outside normal range, or punishes with a dash JC Grab

 

[\Apples]

Screws me over all the time too on chaingrabs. ALL the time. It's good against players who rely heavily on reaction time and also play a character that can't easily swat Wario out of the way when he actually is Shoulder Bashing. If they can't deal with the threat, they're definitely going to shield it if they can which is the ideal scenario for the Dash Grab. The difficult thing about this though is you have to know their reaction at the time you choose between Side B or Dash Grab, so in many cases it requires a hard read. Hard reading with grabs is usually a pretty bad idea because grabs aren't all that safe, which is why I believe Wario's Dash Grab isn't actually very good. It doesn't travel far enough and thus doesn't "fake" a Shoulder Bash for long enough for your average player to react to, so most of the time its use is pretty narrow.

 

[DMG]

I would be totally fine with his dash grab IF they did one important thing. If I do an "immediate" dash grab, without holding any buttons, the grab should be like a normal character dash grab. This would let you keep whatever janky use you find for longer dash grabs, without totally screwing Wario for doing it at point blank for whatever reason. I dunno how that would be programmed but that's the only way that I would "like" his dash grab. Otherwise, revert it to something normal and make it feel more traditional.


And yes Apples, that literally is the #1 reason I dash grab. ****ing up a CG input or a JC grab, and getting this awkward dash grab, is kind of lame.

 

[SixSaw]

I don't really see a problem with getting punished for missing an input. I'm not saying that to be condescending or anything, just that making design decisions with error forgiveness in mind seems like the wrong way to go about things, imo. I would rather practice to become reliable with JCgrabs and keep the situational utility of the current dash grab than lose it in exchange for sometimes not getting punished if my JCgrab timing is wrong.

On a side note, what if Wario's dash grab was changed so that as long as the grab button is held, it auto-grabs when a target enters its range, and terminates without grabbing if the grab button is released before a target is met? This would give it a more obvious usefulness (perfectly timed grabs, but at the cost of losing the ability to mix-up the timing to throw off opponents), as well as penalizing players less for doing it accidentally (imagine if a quick tap of the grab button would simply have Wario do the brief start-up "Go!" animation and cut off before any grab boxes come out, like a feint), and have it feel more functionally similar to sideB. Thoughts?

And off topic: but what characters can Wario chaingrab and how? I've been neglecting this aspect of his game.

 

[DMG]

He doesn't *need* the dash grab though. The way I see his dash grab, coupled with Side B, is this:

1. The really long range dash grab is unsafe and overall is bad. There are very few situations where you will be able to likely get a grab, even during a tech chase, with the long range grab.
1b. At long range, if you expect to land a hit anyways, Side B is the better option. You can get the massively gnarly strong hit, or try to jump with it if you made a mistake. If they honestly shield at such a distance instead of reposition, then they are silly dumb and this doesn't validate dash grab. If you think you would grab them at max range with dash grab, just Side B anyways. Can give you a ton of reward and small risk.

2. At very instant close range, the move is laggier than regular dash grabs for other characters. At the very least, fix this part about Wario's grab because all it does is add more room for ****ing up. There's no depth or mixup for the "up close" dash grab, so why have it be so bad?

3. If we are keeping this dash grab, I would like to see it function more like his actual Side B. Give it armor to go through low % projectiles and jabs/etc, but have him lose the armor once he initiates the grab obv. If he has this already, I wouldn't be surprised because I don't use it ever and it's still silly.

Edit: Those changes to dash grab you suggested would be a bit silly. Auto grab would be very janky, based on how it detects hitboxes (think of how weird raptor boost can be). Being able to instantly cancel a dash grab, without grabbing, is a sick feint but again why the hell does Wario need any of this? He has enough tricky, gimmicky, mix up orientated crazy nonsense. Let's leave his dash grab alone. Make it a boring dash grab, because that's all a dash grab needs to be!

 

[Zujx]

I only JCgrab almost no exceptions with Wario
His dash grab just seems horrific to me. Perhaps good for mind games but, other than that far to easy to punish.

 

[\Apples]

It's good for mind games against some players, yes. I'm not arguing it be changed at all on behalf of my lack of technical expertise, I'm merely saying I find no common practical place for it in my playstyle at all. The fact that I dash grab on accident nearly 100% of the time when I do dash grab doesn't mean I wish it woul dbe changed. I think it's a neat little addition, but it's kind of a little much, honestly. I don't think he needs it at all, but the reasons I think that aren't because it would remove my technical issue with it; the reason I don't think he needs it is because I think he is still top 5 material without it and it's just like... Idk, overkill? Yeah, overkill is the word I'm looking for here.

I mean, looking at it from the other angle though, it honestly does seem to be a bane for more players than a boon. In that light, it's worse than L-canceling. An arbitrary tech-skill barrier that doesn't really test anything that matters much? Idk. His dash grab just seems extraneous to me no matter how I look at it.

 

[Athorment]

I would also prefer if it was gone. Giving him a normal dash grab like other characters can exponentially increase his ground mind games.
If anything, i would rather have the Side+B tackle/Shoulder bash be grab cancelable, except if you miss on that "Tackle dash grab" Wario could end up missing altogether and even "Trip" to end up on the ground, sitting. The animation of falling alone would give a bigger window of opportunity to punish it and it could also have a very short grab range for balance.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I think it's good the way it is.

 

[Matasd]

I like Wario's dash grab, I feel like it definitely fits nicely in his little box of tools. I really like the mix up with the side b even if it can be punished easily if you catch someone shielding too often when you side b then you can throw dash grabs in and throw people off.

 

[CPU?]

His dash grab needs to return to a normal dash grab animation.

 

[Matasd]

Ok, but why do you feel that?

 

[Mr.Pickle]

His dash grab needs to return to a normal dash grab animation.

Why, so it can go from having situational use, to having no use at all.

 

[0RLY]

Normal dash grab pros: If you mess up your jc grab, you won't suffer as much lag.

Normal dash grab cons: Is worse than jc grab in every regard.

Current dash grab pros: Has mindgame potential.

Current dash grab cons: Very laggy if missed.

Normal dash grab is good when you're bad at timing jc grabs. Current dash grab is good for mix-ups.

Adding a grab-cancel on Side-B makes it too good. It was the reason why Wario lost his crouch cancel on SB. It allows him to beat almost every defensive option and made SB far too safe. With the current dash grab, you are making a decision to mix-up, as opposed to a reaction to shields by grab cancelling your SB.

Grab cancel on SB makes a good character.

Dash grab looking like SB makes a good player.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Thank you, 10/10 post.

 

[A6stringthing (A6ST)]

I like it. I use it if my opponent recovers back on stage, I space myself, dash grab, (they shield I wanna say 80% of the time) then pummel and then use a full F-throw to keep em off stage, it also makes a nice looking kill.

 

[Child Star]

I dont throw it out too often, so when i do throw it i usually get it. Theres a threshold where people can start to read often enough that it gets really risky to throw out. I couldnt tell you when it happens but its noticable when youre in game.

 

[KenMeister]

I like it personally, combining it with dash dancing creates a lot of surprisingly effective tech chase counters, especially when used in conjunction with dthrow.

 

[Boiko]

BTW if you want to see an awesome use of DG search youtube for Strong Bad vs. Zeej. I believe it's game 2 of grand finals on Smashville, last stock.

God. Like.

 

[Frost | Odds]

The problem with the dash grab is that it loses to exactly the same thing as the side-B, to which it's supposed to be a complementary mixup. The opponent can simply throw out a hitbox and beat either move.

If he's conditioned to shield the side-b, then great - but the dash grab is pretty niche regardless.

That said, Wario's probably going to be strong enough in 3.5 due to general recovery changes and stuff, that he'll be able ot afford this weakness.

WELP, new dash grab is pretty cool. :D

 

[CPU?]

Told you guys lol