kinbobbobkin
Smash Apprentice
That's your opinion.
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Only One Smash Game Will Finish On Sunday At Evo 2015
- Thread starter LiteralGrill
- Start date
kinbobbobkin
Smash Apprentice
Proof of fanboyism here.
Smasher-LTIMT
Smash Cadet
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I agree! Super Smash Bros. Melee is great, but Smash 4 needs a chance to shine!
Smasher-LTIMT
Smash Cadet
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I agree! Melee is great, but Smash 4 needs a chance to shine!
EpixAura
Smash Journeyman
To be fair, he has a point in that Sm4sh doesn't have a claim to fame. What has it done to deserve the main stage? It has a lot of players, and it has a lot of fans, but so does every game at EVO. If there's one thing I've noticed from this thread, it's that the only people who watch Sm4sh are the same people who play it. On the other hand, there have been a lot of people in this thread who've said that even though they don't play Melee, they love to watch it.
While I wouldn't expect Sm4sh to get the main stage this year, this is it's chance to prove whether or not it deserves it in the future.
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BorktheBrat (Carl Brody)
Smash Cadet
I'm surprised I got so many likes for such a simple post. Hahaha. Melee is widely appealing though.
koopahermit
Smash Cadet
He does have a point. Sm4sh hasn't been developed enough to deserve a spot on the mainstage at EVO. With how inconsistent the meta is at the moment, it might have an embarassing showing. The game needs to mature and have a concrete meta first. You don't want to rush things.
i was just kidding :3
MasterIcarus7 (SHADE)
Smash Ace
Melee has the neutral game and footsies, it just doesn't matter as much to watch at a high level, as kills occur at low percents. Lower level matches have a neutral game, as one of my current problems is neutral. Also, Melee is more like SF2 than three in comparison.
Death Arcana
Rum is for Drinking
i second this
Jmcpappy
Smash Cadet
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- 37
But melee is what got smash 4 where it is -.- and melee has much larger viewership
Jmcpappy
Smash Cadet
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wouldn't it be safer to have sm4sh on sunday, since it's customs and the tourney could be a disaster? Melee has not only earned the main stage, but as you said, it's definitively gonna be a good show, so it would make more sense to give it the spotlight
TunaAndBacon
Smash Apprentice
Sunday is the last day so its where all the hype is, Sm4sh should just be on Saturday so in case it completely bombs or ends up another time out atrocity like Apex, it can just be said and done and just be made fun of on twitter for the night. Everybody will remember Sunday the most, so it'd be safer to put Melee their since we already know what to expect. No weird custom gimics, no time outs (thank you Armada for dumping Young Link) and we can all celebrate and be hype and happy when Mang0 gets the threepeat on Monday.
BorktheBrat (Carl Brody)
Smash Cadet
I know this is irrelevant but I need help with something and nobody has replied to the thread I posted. I appreciate anybody who helps. Thanks!
http://smashboards.com/threads/adapter-for-playing-wii-on-old-tv-help.405996/
http://smashboards.com/threads/adapter-for-playing-wii-on-old-tv-help.405996/
It's probably gonna be sm4sh bc its new and they want to give it a chance and help it grow (and it likely won't be at as many evos in the future as melee, especially if evos rules end up sucking). I play both so I'm just happy that both got picked to be at evo. I actually like this setup tho bc I can watch only melee one day and then only watch sm4sh on the other day. And then people who only like one game don't have to watch the other one. I don't see why being on Sunday is a big deal because the game on Saturday will still get more viewers than all the games the next day besides the other smash
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nessokman
Smash Lord
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- Sep 4, 2012
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Completely wrong. Melee was a rushed product, they didn't have time to make a masterpiece. Melee was an accident. It was never intended to be what it was. It isn't even a good looking game.
Well made? If you think less is more.
I personally think Smash 4 has more of a right to be main stage. You melee fanatics keep coming in guns blazing trying to kill anything non melee.
Smash needs main stage Sunday. It needs it for growth. Melee has already peaked in popularity, let the newer game get some spotlight. Melee won't die from EVO.
Your flawed logic is-
Melee has already proven itself! It should get Sunday! Smash can prove itself another time. But you NEVER let smash 4 get its chance, you are literally permanently blocking sm4sh from getting that main stage.
They should put smash U main stage Sunday, melee won't die from not being there one day. See what reactions are how the streams do, and use that to judge next year.
Both games are hype, and both require skill. The only thing about melee that people like is that it has the flashiest 0-death combos.
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Delta Chae
The Observer
Calm down, seriously. Looking at this from a strictly practical point of view, if I were the tournament organizer I would put Melee on the main stage. Reason being is that Melee has shown that it generates hype with its much more aggressive style of play as opposed to Smash 4's defensive and campy style. Melee's is simply more interesting to watch.
Aside from that, some of your points are just flat out wrong.
Isn't a good looking game? Maybe by today's standards but it looked very good for its time and still looks pretty decent in today's environment.
Smash 4 needs the stage for growth? How long did it take Melee to make an appearance at EVO? Not until 2007 and aside from MLG tournaments from 2004 to 2006, Melee was mostly a grassroots competitive game. After Brawl came out. Melee was dropped by EVO and the entire scene almost died out but players kept it alive and came back kicking in 2013 when all of the collective fans of the game came together and raised the most money in the charity drive to get Melee featured at EVO again. After that, Melee's popularity exploded and continues to grow to this day while Brawl has more or less died out.
This I why I think Melee players are so bitter about Smash 4, because Melee players had to fight tooth and nail for several years before it was recognized as a serious fighting game. By comparison, Smash 4 hasn't had to go through any of that due to official backing by Nintendo. A good way to see it would be like Melee is the older sibling that had to earn everything they ever wanted while Smash 4 is the younger sibling that has everything they ever wanted handed to them on a silver platter.
Sakurai's insistence on making the game as anti-competitive as possible doesn't help matters either. Alienating either side of fanbase, casual or competitive, is not a good thing to do.
nessokman
Smash Lord
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- Sep 4, 2012
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- 1,641
It isn't the sm4sh fanbase's fault that Nintendo decided to back this game, why punish them for it. Congratulations! Your 14 year old game is at EVO, again. Smash 4 needs the floor, melee had its time to shine.
No, even for its time it wasn't the best looking game. Star fox adventures, though it came out in 2002, had much better models and was rendering a 3D world. (Textures were crap on it, but weren't they all). Melee was far from visually impressive. Decent, sure.
Melee didn't have its predecessor for competition. 64 barely has or had a tourney scene.(though they are very dedicated and amazing folks). Brawl was complete trash, making Sm4sh the first really viable competitive game in the series since 01.
Smash 4 having that main floor at the apex of EVO (see wht I did there? Apex meaning the highest poi...oh **** it) would get it more exposure. Melee had to fight tooth and nail yes, but that doesn't mean every game should have to. Smash 4 could very well be jump started by EVO. That's exciting, with backing from nintendo, sm4sh might be able to go further than melee could have ever gone.
Sakurai doesn't hate the competitive scene. He just refuses to cater to our whims. He never alienated casuals, if anything he cares more about them, and rightfully so. Competitive aren't the ones who buy millions of games. He did give us for glory, which is more than brawl had.the game has some decent combos, as well as omega stages so every stage an be played.(though no platforms? What the ****?)
I said a long time ago that the excuse competitive people make that "casuals will never learn advanced techs an never have to fight them isn't true anymore." Online matches put competitive a against casuals all the time. And don't you dare say tourney players don't play online.
Sm4sh is very competitive. It just isn't YOUR style of competitive. It doesn't rely on overly flashy 0-deaths. It takes more patience and it takes a lot of thought.(not to see melee doesn't take thought).it all comes down to refusal to adapt.
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Delta Chae
The Observer
Ok, you're just strawmanning everything I said. Take a minute, calm down, think, and get back to me.
I never said it was Smash 4's fault that it was backed by Nintendo, we are still bitter over it nonetheless as Smash 4 is having handed to it what Melee had to fight tooth and nail for. It's the same way that an impoverished family would not blame someone for being born into wealth but still might resent them all the same.
I never said it was the BEST looking game, just that it looked good for the time and still holds up well enough by today's standards. Even then, graphics are secondary to gameplay when judging the quality of a game.
I don't see how the 3rd paragraph is relevant and Smash 4 being competitively viable is debatable. I personally don't think it is but that's just me.
Ok, I need to stop you right there: Smash 4 will NOT exceed Melee in terms of a competitive scene. I will acknowledge that at some point it might pull even with it but once the hype dies down I truly believe that the competitive scene will taper off and the players will either retire or move to Melee. But again, that's just me. You might be able to argue that Smash 4 is a competitively viable game, you CANNOT argue that it's more competitively viable than Melee.
Really? The fact that he went out of his way to remove all the advanced techniques that competitive players loved Melee for doesn't say that he hates the competitive scene? Or the fact that he has on numerous occasions voiced distaste and/or apathy for the competitive scene? While I think the man is brilliant, his vision of a game where everyone wins in a genre that naturally has winners and losers is shortsighted and naive. I also NEVER said that Sakurai alienated casuals, just that alienating EITHER side, competitive or casual, is one of the worst mistakes to make as a game designer.
For Glory? Seriously? For Glory is a joke. The fact that Sakurai thinks competitive players only play on FD only serves to reinforce my point. As for online play in general, online play in a game like Smash is not a good indicator of how skilled a player is due to lag and desynchronization. While some tournament players do play online they are very few and far between.
Also, someone who has put hundreds upon hundreds of hours into learning and dissecting the game SHOULD rightfully body someone who only picks the game up to pass the time every now and then. Removing advanced techniques does not change the fact that someone like Mew2King would utterly destroy someone who only plays the game for like an hour a week.
If Smash 4 is competitive then PROVE it. Also, Melee does not rely on flashy zero to deaths, you're thinking Smash 64 where hitstun is absurdly long and DI does not exist. Zero to deaths are possible in Melee but are a fairly rare occurrence. Also, it's not "refusal to adapt" as I've heard so many people tell me and I'll probably hear about 100 more times, it's because aside from the title and the concept, they are two COMPLETELY different games.
nessokman
Smash Lord
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Smash 4 could very well exceed melee. It's faster and less floaty than brawl. It has official backing by nintendo, and it has it's fans.
Sakurai never went out of his way for ****. He didn't get rid of anything. Techniques often don't very over between games, that's what makes new games attractive. It's a new slate to expand on and to work with. Most techniques went out he window with adjustments to physics.
Alienating competitive players has little to no down sides though. Casuals alone sell enough copies of the game to continue the franchise, something competitive players don't do.
I never said for glory was good. Sakurai probably wanted a fair stage, but didn't want to limit you to very few options. FD is good for competitive play, and though I think some should have offered platforms, hindsight is always 20/20.
No, I fully guarantee you that most competitive players do play online. When you don't have anyone to fight, and CPUs are predictable or bad (except for level 9 that shield everything perfectly), you would probably go online. If for nothing other then to kill time and have fun. We know Zero does.
Smash 4 has a growing tourney scene, and is doing really well approaching its 1 year anniversary.
You can't guarantee anything and neither can I. People didn't pick melee up and start wavedashing all over the screen, it takes time to build up advanced techniques. You can't have a game come out and expect extremely deep tech, I doubt the developers even knew about half the stuff pro melee players do.
Advanced techniques have been gradually discovered. Even after discovery, people have to learn how to put them to use them to their fullest potential. Who knows? Maybe someone will discover something extreme. You don't find this stuff wen you look for it, it happens by accident.
Brawl had nothing. It is extremely campy, floaty, with absolutely no good combos. Smash 4 is better off in all of those regards. In melee you had no choice but to be offensive, because few or no characters had a moveset that could camp efficiently without being destroyed.
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p0stscript
Smash Rookie
UR A BLOODY CASUAL!!!'n1!1!1!1
Delta Chae
The Observer
Except it won't. Take a step back and look at this from a rational point of view. Players are already complaining about how Smash 4 is almost as campy as Brawl was and still punishes you for trying to play offensively. Having seen gameplay videos and having been to a few local tournaments I can verify that this is the case. You're accusing people like me of being "Melee fanatics" when you're acting like a stereotypical "Smash 4 fanatic". Melee has flaws, I know it has flaws, but you're refusing to acknowledge that Smash 4 has flaws at its core gameplay. Defensive campy play does require a different style of play than offensive play which is why people like Zero are top players in Smash 4 but can't amount to anything in Melee, however, defensive campy play is not fun or interesting to watch for the majority of spectators.
Ok, you're just being dumb right now. Wavedashing? Sakurai intentionally took it out, this is the only one that I can somewhat understand because it wasn't an intended feature, but then again neither were combos in Street Fighter at first. L-Cancelling? Intentionally took it out despite the fact that it was an intended feature in the first place. Jump-cancelling shines? Intentionally took it out. Dash-dancing? Intentionally took it out despite being the only advanced technique that required basically zero tech skill to use, this one is especially notable because without dash-dancing players cannot effectively play mindgames. Jump-cancelled grabs? Intentionally took it out. Added in tripping with the explicit purpose of making Brawl as anti-competitive as possible. See where I'm going with this? As I said before, someone who has sunk hundreds upon hundreds of hours deserves to utterly destroy someone who only plays the game for a few hours a month. Advanced techniques are not some sort of gamebreaking method that you and other Smash 4 players seem to think they are, even if top level players weren't using advanced techniques they would still destroy you, good fundamentals with average tech skill ALWAYS beats average fundamentals with good tech skill.
The fact that you say that alienating competitive players has little to no downsides shows me that you are not a competitive player. I hate to use this term, but you are a casual scrub. Competitive players are the ones who continue playing the game years after release and are consequently, the only reason why anyone cares about the game years after release. Most casual players will pick up the game for a few months and then move on. Also, if game like Tekken, Street Fighter, Starcraft II, and especially DOTA 2 alienated their competitive scenes, they'd be ruined. With the exception of DOTA, none of these games were made to competitive titles: Tekken and Street Fighter? Originally simple arcade titles that you were meant to get on and have a little fun beating up your friends. Starcraft II? Started out as a simple RTS game. The difference between the developers of these games and Sakurai? They have embraced the competitive community and with the exception of DOTA, none of them are incapable of being played as casual games either.
You say Sakurai wanted to give us a fair stage but didn't want to limit our options yet only gave us FD? Stop contradicting yourself. FD is not the fairest stage in the game, Battlefield is. FD gives an advantage to characters that can spam projectiles and characters that have chain-grabs such as Marth. The reason it's still a neutral stage is because these advantages, while big, are not game-breaking by any means. So while not ban or counterpick list worthy, FD is far from a "fair" stage. The reason Sakurai made it that way is because of the stereotype of "No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination" which has zero basis in reality aside from the No Items part. I hate the Fox ditto as to do most competitive players because it's extremely volatile and unpredictable, Fox has numerous insta-gimps on himself, and can chain grab himself more easily than Marth can. Additionally, FD is one of Fox's worst if not is flat out worst stage period for one simple reason, chain grabs. But I know for a fact that Sakurai knows very little about the competitive scene so he went off of this stereotypes which I will point out, is perpetuated by casual players.
No, online is joke if you're trying to test your skill. It's great for having some fun here and there but because of lag and desynchronization it's not an accurate gauge of skill. Granted it's not as bad as Brawl's online system but it's still noticeable and does make an impact.
Yes it does have a growing tournament scene, but where will that go once the hype dies down? What will happen when Smash 4 occurs at EVO and everyone realize that aside from some fixes here and there, the gameplay is much the same thing as Brawl? Defensive, campy, and uninteresting to watch? That's the point I'm getting at that you seem to be missing. You look at Melee and despite all of the adversity it's been through on top of being almost 15 years old and the tournament scene is stronger than it's ever been and is still growing. This is not a coincidence, Melee simply has more to offer as a competitive title.
You do know that wavedashing was discovered within the first year of Melee's existence right? Do your research before making ridiculous claims. Nobody has made any such discovery in Smash 4, the few advanced techniques that did exist such as DACUS have been patched out and the few that remain such as Boost Grabbing and Hilldashing have miniscule benefits to offer. The only significant tech in Smash 4 is Shield Platform Dropping. Don't expect anyone to discover anything groundbreaking and if they do, expect Sakurai to patch it out. So stop acting like there's a sleeping giant waiting within within Smash 4's data, with the way the physics work and Sakurai's general philosophy of only appealing to casual gamers, the potential simply isn't there. I'm not saying that Smash 4 has no potential as a competitive title, what I am saying is that the potential for advanced techniques to be discovered is slim to none.
Ok, I'm going to stop you right now. It's very clear that you know nothing about competitive Melee play. Mew2King is one of the most defensive players of the entire scene and yet he's still one of the "Five Gods", Melee allows for both offensive AND defensive styles to be played but slightly favors offense over defense. The reason you don't realize this is because in Brawl and Smash 4, defensive play is two players constantly trying to outzone and outspace each other as they trade individual hits until someone gets off the finishing move. In Melee, defensive play does involve outzoning and outspacing your opponent, but once you get a hit you follow up on it with several more hits.
Please, try to know what you're talking about before saying it.
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Delta Chae
The Observer
MarthZ
Smash Journeyman
what about project M
nessokman
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2012
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- 1,641
Jesus Christ that long post.
You literally just said you haven't even played the game. You can't get a feel for a game like smash by watching it, it isn't the same as playing it. Similarly I can't understand **** about league of legend when I watch people streaming it, but it makes sense when I actually play it.
"People" are complaining? No, hardcore melee fans are complaining. Obviously there aren't too many people who don't like it or it wouldn't be getting entry numbers.
Once again, brawl has completely different physics, so o course wavedashing wouldn't happen. Sakurai more than likely wasn't trying to remove it. Tripping want put in exclusively to ruin competitive play, you act like it's all part of sakurai's evil anti competitive agenda.
Like I said, not all these technique were discovered and put to good use immediately wither.
Don't you dare go throwing ****ing labels at me when you don't know anything about me. CLEARLY you have absolutely no understanding of how business works. I'll spell it out for you.
Nintendo doesn't give two flying ****s about you or me or any other competitive player. BUSINESSES ONLY CARE ABOUT MONEY!
They don't think of "casuals" or "competitives" they think about the money lining their pockets. They couldn't give two ****s less if you pick the game up at your local Walmart and play it for 30 seconds. They get your money, and that's all that matters to them.
Competitive players don't sell ten million copies, and until they do, nintendo won't consider them when making a game. I'm not a major competitive player, but I attend tournaments when I can.
I never said sakurai knows how to appease competitive players in stages. He wanted to give us more options than the same 4-7 that are usually used. It not the best, but at least he acknowledged us. (And in case you didn't know Omega stages aren't for glory exclusive)
I highly doubt the hype will die any time soon. Smash 4 has DLC, and as long as they keep making more, the hype won't die. Given the Lucas/Roy/Ryu release flooded the eshop servers, the hype isn't dying and the people are still buying.
They are showing interest in supporting smash 4, more than why they did for melee or brawl.
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Delta Chae
The Observer
F&$@ing hell kid what is wrong with you? Your reading comprehension skills are seriously lacking. I was trying to be civil but you have shown that you do not deserve that courtesy.
In case you didn't notice, I main Robin and Roy and I previously mained Marth. Not ONCE did I say I haven't played the game. I've been to a few tournaments and I am currently planning one for my college campus so stop strawmanning everything I say.
Except people ARE complaining, not just hardcore Melee fans. The main people complaining however are not the players but the spectators because most people simply find Melee more interesting to watch. The few Melee players that have played it besides Zero have generally voiced distaste for it. The reason Zero isn't complaining is because Smash 4 fits his playstyle much more than Melee does.
Except the reason wavedashing isn't in the game is because Sakurai revamped the air dodge system with the express purpose of making wavedashing impossible. It's been shown that if Melee's air dodge system is hacked into Brawl then wavedashing is possible.
If tripping wasn't put in for the express purpose of preventing the game from being competitive then what other purpose could the existence of such a stupid and pointless mechanic be?
The techniques may not have been put into USE immediately but people knew they existed. If nothing has been discovered at this point in Smash 4's lifespan then it's highly unlikely that anything groundbreaking will EVER be discovered. I have seen no posts anywhere about someone finding anything of significance in Smash 4.
If you didn't want me to call you a casual scrub then you shouldn't have said something that gives that impression, I even explicitly stated that it's not a term I like to use. Don't make stupid statements such as "alienating competitive players has little to no downside" and you won't be called a scrub.
Kid, you are refusing to understand this one critical point, casual play and competitive play are NOT mutually exclusive. Even if Smash 4 was "Melee 2.0" the casual audience would still buy it because it's the newest entry in the franchise. The difference being that more competitive players would buy it because of greater mechanical depth. Therefore if we use your logic then it makes MORE sense to cater to the desires of competitive players alongside those of casual players.
Understand this you simpleton, Omega Stages and FD are functionally the EXACT SAME THING. There is literally ZERO difference between FD and Omega stages. Variety between the two is non-existent. I also NEVER said anything about Omega stages being For Glory exclusive and the fact that they aren't has no relevance to what I said.
The hype WILL die eventually, you may not realize this, but they have a limited number of character and stage slots that they can use for DLC and with the most recent release most of the character slots are used up with something like 3 or 4 remaining.
Ironically your last point can be torn apart using your own logic. Nintendo only cares about money. Once supporting Smash 4 as a competitive title ceases to be profitable they'll toss it aside like yesterday's leftovers.
If you want to start thinking logically then I will be happy to continue this discussion but if your next post is filled with the same strawmans and faulty reasoning that your previous posts have then I will not bother responding.
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How is it my opinion?
AllysonWonderland
Smash Rookie
If EVO wants to be in Nintendo's good graces, it might want to have Sm4sh end on Sunday for the sake of promoting the newest Smash, but I agree with MarioMeteor--if we know this community, it will likely be Melee.
Dylan_Tnga
Smash Master
Melee deserves the main stage, as it is much more exciting to watch from a spectator point of view. It's faster, and requires much higher levels of execution. Not to mention interesting creative combos and more flexible DI.
I think when it comes down to viewers, not players, a bigger majority of the smash community would prefer to watch melee over smash 4.
In either case, melee will be streamed regardless so that's good.
I have a sinking feeling smash 4 will take the main stage because it's the newest smash game and for that reason alone....
I'm also worried smash 4 is going to take WAY TOO LONG and other FGC players are going to make fun of how campy and boring it can be.
I think when it comes down to viewers, not players, a bigger majority of the smash community would prefer to watch melee over smash 4.
In either case, melee will be streamed regardless so that's good.
I have a sinking feeling smash 4 will take the main stage because it's the newest smash game and for that reason alone....
I'm also worried smash 4 is going to take WAY TOO LONG and other FGC players are going to make fun of how campy and boring it can be.
DavemanCozy
Smash Photographer
I'd rather see Melee over Customs On Smash4, tbh.
Honestly, this is how I feel:
If customs were off, I wouldn't mind whichever one was chosen. But after attending 3 tournaments of jank on, I no longer think customs are the way to go for the future of this game, and neither do I want that on top stage.
Honestly, this is how I feel:
I would much rather watch Melee myself, despite playing Smash 4. It's the truth right there.
If customs were off, I wouldn't mind whichever one was chosen. But after attending 3 tournaments of jank on, I no longer think customs are the way to go for the future of this game, and neither do I want that on top stage.
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