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Once More with Feeling

Double Helix

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 23, 2012
Messages
432
Location
Southern Illinois
Let us try to, once again, talk about the Marth matchup. The neutral game is very difficult, and acting first seems very awful, but acting second can put you behind. Getting hit is a free 40% because of the weight. It's awful. What options do you believe are the best? What punishes are available? How do you not feel helpless? It's a fun matchup.
 

gemigumi

Formerly gemininoiser
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
17
Location
London, Ontario
I really have trouble with this matchup as well. I end up using dash attack and dair as a crutch, but I really don't think that's a solution.
I feel my main problem is approaching. Should I even try to approach? I usually throw out moves that get crouch canceled and I get punished for them. What do you think is the best counter against Marth crouch canceling in neutral? Perhaps just grabbing, or going for a djc autocancel dair feint to grab. sort of thing?
 

Sieghart

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 14, 2015
Messages
173
I fair a lot. I djc fair twice as much. Fadeback djc fair has served me well. Spacing also serves me well.
 

Double Helix

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 23, 2012
Messages
432
Location
Southern Illinois
I never got to be on a recording setup with Metroid, but he really knows this matchup well, so it'd be really nice to see the way he handles the matchup in hindsight, but in my match against Jwoof, what ended up happening was he would throw out misspaced moves and I would be able to punish him for it.

So far, it seems to me that you cannot approach. Ness's weight really ends up being a detriment in this matchup because it's an easy 40% on a clean stock. After that you fly far enough, but I don't play enough of the Marth matchup (due to lack of tournaments) in order to figure out the recovery options (which aren't many). Marth can easily edgeguard Ness and seems to win the neutral game much harder than Sheik. I'm beginning to like the Sheik matchup more than Marth simply because the neutral game against Marth is more difficult.

Ness has a very good punish game if Marth whiffs a move, though. Even against Metroid I got a free 40-70% because of his weight against Ness, but the kill pressure is fairly low.
 

dan smith

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 28, 2004
Messages
2,668
Location
Lawrence, KS
i like fighting marth. you just gotta know the spacing well and dance a lot. if you can provoke an attack you can usually move in to punish. once you get in you can dodge, jab, grab, and nair your way to success. using the dash attack and dair to get in are valid. fair is valid too if the conditions are right. (there are few matchups where fair isn't good) i always end up using pk fire once or twice against marth. even if you don't connect with it, it's a good way to keep them on edge.
 

CheAkiwara

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
13
Location
Germany
Whenever I play against a Marth , I shield-approach a lot and do a SH n-air.
I also tend to use shorthop f-air to get an opening -> techchase with dair which often lead into b-airs. You can also follow up with a pk-fire after the d-air. Most people wont see it coming.
Also f-air into grab is most often than not guranteed.
 

PSI-Apocalypse

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 8, 2013
Messages
82
Location
Mexico
So, I lack of marth players, but I do have played against various so I ended up with the same problem but now I realized that everything is in the spacing, as dan smith said, dash dance is a very good resource against marth, since ness can easily throw aerials out of the dd. So I'll post all my thoughts.
In terms of range Marth wins every time, your best weapons are fair and dash attack being the securest attacks that ness have. You can't simply try to grab by obvious reasons, however, there are some ways to get a grab, for example after a djc fair but it still can fail, depending on the DI, the damage, etc.
As many of you have said, approach is not much of an option, you should rather try to fake out or provoke, well spaced djc bairs can do it very well, as you force him to shield and if spaced correctly is hard to punish.
So here's what I do:
Starting the match I try to gain position on the stage and remain in a secure spot, wavedashing foward and backward, dash dancing can help you get the space you need, if the marth gets too close I throw out a short hopped fair and downtilt, since the short hopped fair autocancels, the downtilt comes really fast so you avoid getting grab most of the times. The thing is to build damage, every hit counts, then you try to gain center of the stage (I know is not that easy). Ness has good kill setups, like autocanceled dair to up-air/back-air, also at mid percentage and DI in you can fair to reverse bair/nair. Something that worked, even though I was only occasionally, has forcing Marth to double jump so then I could combo him to his dead. I'm still searching for tools on this matchup, if I find anything useful I'll share it.
 
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