On spacing.

[deepseadiva]

This is a mostly exact image of Peach's invisible control zone. Note: jab 2, Toad, Parasol, dair, and dash grab are omitted. Also note that for aerials, jump has 5 frames of start-up, with Peach being airborne on frame 6. So, while nair hits on frame 3, all together with jump (5+3), it's 8 frames. Bair is frame 11. Uair frame 13. Fair frame 21. Going into a dash also requires start-up frames, but I'm not sure how many and haven't particularly cared to look. Someone should, since dash attack will be 6+ whatever.

Peach's fastest options on the ground, in order, are:

• Jab at frame 2
• Dsmash, ftilt, grab at frame 6
• Turnip throw at frame 8

Her most ranged options, in order, are:

• Turnip tosses (the one in the image is a normal standing toss) at frame 8
• Peach Bomber (which has the same reach as turnip toss) at frame 23
• Dash attack at frame 6+dash start-up
• Dtilt at frame 12
• Fsmash at frame 15
• Pivot grab at frame 13
• Fair at frame 16
• Ftilt at frame 6
• Jab at frame 2

Spacing is having the faster move from the furthest distance. For example, while Peach's fsmash has great range, it takes 15 frames to hit - if a character has a move faster than 15 frames, they will win that moment, assuming all things equal. Good spacing with Peach is making a balanced decision between the speed you need, and the range you can get away with, and applying that to the moment's context (Am I in the air? Am I running? Do I have a turnip?).

On the ground, Peach's most valuable assets are her turnips. If the Peach was given the space/time to pull a turnip, she was gifted a bit of power. Turnips are not very good items, but suddenly Peach has 3 times as much range as normal, and more importantly Peach has created free pressure. As soon as Peach has released her turnip, Peach can independently work off the forced reaction. Peach can create advantage from a neutral situation without cost. Even if the turnip is easily dealt with, Peach is no worse off. $0 for $0, but with the potential opportunity to become +1 in Peach's favor. Every move has lag, and thus every move does have a cost - you prepay for turnips with a 30 frame turnip pull.

Fair works in the same way, 16 frame start-up is incredibly slow, but that's it's only cost. You prepay a measly 16 frames for significant range and a lagless cancel.

Prepayment for lag is very good in this game. That's the **** you spam, if your opponent has given you the time/space to prepay, that means it's free.

Thinking about the game economically, every match is the accumulation of an overwhelming amount of small-individual victories. Every hit is +1/-1 for either player. This is the order of priority: avoid -1 hits, keep to a 0 situation, and always take +1 hits.

Other thoughts:

Peach Bomber is always going to be terrible, but it deserves credit for being incredibly ranged. Used sparsely, no one expects Peach to attack from that distance. I think it has enough freak-out value to be a consistent source of 20% at least once a match.

If you're holding a turnip and the opponent is within jab range, you should have thrown it much sooner.

ftiltttttttttttttttttttt

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

This is awesome Meno! Peach really does have a bubble around her.

 

[Eddie G]

Well done Meno. This is a good way for people to brush up on their spacing and to get reacquainted with their quickest options. I also agree with Peach Bomber being a consistent source of at least 20% of damage per match; freak-out value is certainly a factor worth considering, given that there are humans behind the sticks. The fruition of mixups mainly stem from said human imperfection, so a healthy mix of safe poke-and-punish play combined with a once in a while mixups is very beneficial imo.

I've been watching a lot of Soul Calibur competitive play lately...and that series is definitely a prime example of just how important smart poking and knowledge of frames/safe options with the occasional gun-for-heavy-damage variances can be. That and Smash are relatable in a lot of ways, quite honestly.

 

[z00ted]

Amazing thread, I think like this all the time. It's nice to know to you are too, Meno.

Love the picture.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I can't view the image. Something about amazon having an xml error.

 

[Nordal]

We're not tech support.

 

[Eddie G]

Nor are we friendly I see.

 

[Meru.]

I'm surprised you didn't mention the word safety at all, since not only is that an important asset to have, it is also wherein Peach outclasses the majority of her cast. I guess that's what you called 'prepayment for lag' since most of the stuff Peach does is safe and thus 'free'.

The best thing is she doesn't even pay much, she is not a high risk high reward character... More like low risk high reward when the opponent is on lower %s and low risk decent reward on higher %s. The worst thing is it doesn't take many hits to beat her. She's on the lighter side and she has a difficuly recovery. I still refuse to call her recovery 'bad' when falling from above but you surely have to be very careful.

With that I disagree with Eddie's Peach Bomber example. Sure, it's a mix-up and thus unexpected but that's not always good. Peach Bomber has so much lag, if you miss you may just as well kill yourself. She has more than enough other options that aren't high risk lowish reward. Now if Peach Bomber would consistently bounce of shields... that would have been another story, but I guess that's too good to be true.

Soul Calibur and Smash are relatable in a lot of ways, quite honestly.

Both communities use too many acronyms in their notations.

 

[Eddie G]

That's totally fine Yaaay. I'm not saying Peach Bomber (or any unsafe move for that matter) is something I would advise players to rely upon if they want to win, it's more of a use on balls-to-the-wall guessing game kind of basis. I was simply acknowledging its possible use as a mixup, and the incorporation of mixups in general, move validity aside.

Players knowing the risk/reward factor of what they do is absolutely essential, I agree with you there. Mixups are simply what keeps the human mind on its toes and have the potential to create opportunities that wouldn't initially be there while both players are playing it safe. With that said, Peach Bomber overall...is indeed pretty terrible lol.

I do try to avoid discarding moves from my arsenal based strictly on their safety though. Top players tend to have a knack for opening up textbook or framecount/safety based styles very, very quickly if the skill gap is great enough, based on what I've witnessed in most games. I'm not saying it's wrong to play that way, it just also has its downsides like anything else.

 

[KassandraNova]

Wow this is super useful. 0.0
I'll be subscribing to this thread...<_<

 

[Dark.Pch]

I like this thread. Nice job dude.

 

[deepseadiva]

With that I disagree with Eddie's Peach Bomber example. Sure, it's a mix-up and thus unexpected but that's not always good. Peach Bomber has so much lag, if you miss you may just as well kill yourself. She has more than enough other options that aren't high risk lowish reward. Now if Peach Bomber would consistently bounce of shields... that would have been another story, but I guess that's too good to be true.

Let me put it this way.

You're missing out on a very rewarding option if Peach Bomber isn't something you're working with. Even as a once-a-match gimmick. It's a good one. I consider it Peach's Shield Breaker. Obviously less rewarding, but it has the same "Oh-****-what-the-hell-is-that" effect when she pulls back to hup-cha. Plus the range. It's slow, but it's super huge, lol.

 

[Eddie G]

Indeed, and let me tell ya...I love the "Wtf" effect that shield breaker has on people.

 

[Zwarm]

I won a doubles set once because my teammate broke both shields of the other team with one shield breaker.

Also fun fact, Peach Bomber sends people straight up if you hit them with it while they're stunned by ZSS. At least, it happened to me once in doubles, and I don't remember any other attacks hitting them other than another ZSS dsmash.