On Fire Emblem's Implementation

[RetrogamerMax]

Stop right there. The reason why Zelda gets no new characters is that all new main characters other than Zelda, Link, and Ganon are one shots. Fire Emblem's only main characters are one shots.

Therefore it's harder to justify adding more Zelda main characters when it has a static main cast. Fire Emblem does not have a static main cast.

But Impa isn't a one shot though.

 

[Oracle Link]

I can make a LoZ thread later so we can keep this related to FE's representation, but I'll give my take on LoZ newcomers here.

I feel like it would be nice to see a new LoZ character since there hasn't been a new one since Brawl, but it's not a major concern, and I mostly understand why we haven't received a newcomer since then (the only weird thing I can think of is Impa missing For's base roster).

If I got to add LoZ newcomers, Impa would be my first choice since she is a recurring character, and she also is relevant with her appearances in BotW, Candence of Hyrule, and AoC. I find it a little weird that she missed Smash For's base roster since SS was relevant at the time and she has appeared in multiple games, but I liked the choices for base games' newcomers, and they all made sense in the end. For Ultimate, the focus was on fan requests and newer characters, so she unfortunately didn't have a shot. For SSB7/FP2, I think she would be a great choice.

I think Skull Kid would be my second choice since he was a major antagonist of one game, appeared in OoT, Tp, and Candence of Hyrule, and is the most requested one. After that, I'd say Tingle since he has a spin-off series despite his hatred from the West.

For "one-offs" like Midna and Ghirahim (they're technically not one-offs since I'm counting Hyrule Warriors), I assume from a marketing perspective that it would just be more reasonable to just update the playable protagonist since the one-offs added who weren't the main protagonist were tied to other characters' move sets (Sheik as a part of Zelda's move set and Ganon(during OoT)/Lucina as Falcon/Marth clones). If that was the case, a Wolf Link/Midna tag team might have made sense in Brawl if it didn't have the same technical issues as the Diddy/Dixie one, but it still would give us another Link. If one of these characters ends up having Ridley, K. Rool, Banjo, and currently Waluigi and Geno (before the Mii costume returned) levels of demand, these characters could have a shot.

Related to FE representation, I'm not concerned if FE has more reps since SSB's roster is not primarily about giving each series proportional representation and showcasing just characters who have large legacies, otherwise we wouldn't have Ice Climbers, Lucas, a Metroid rep or two (while I'm fine with what I'll soon mention, Metroid does have more reps than DK, Kirby, and AC), possibly Ness, Banjo, and Jigglypuff, Falco or Wolf, Palutena, and most of the FE cast (it'd most likely just be Marth, Chrom, and mayyybe Ike).

Ok fine

 

[Pupp135]

I made a Thread if people want to discuss more about LoZ representation, so we keep this about FE.

 

[Genoxys]

Pokemon.

Donkey Kong.

Pokemon is not Nintendo's bestselling franchise. Mario has sold way more games, even if you just count the "Super Mario Bros" series.
Mario Kart is by far Nintendo's current biggest seller, even bigger than Smash. Mario wins on a game-for-game basis and in absolute sales.

Donkey Kong hardly created Mario. He wasn't even "Mario" yet, he was "Jumpman." And DK was just another villain. Mario Bros in 83 got much closer, and it wasn't until Super Mario Bros that he really became what he is now.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Pokemon is not Nintendo's bestselling franchise. Mario has sold way more games, even if you just count the "Super Mario Bros" series.
Mario Kart is by far Nintendo's current biggest seller, even bigger than Smash. Mario wins on a game-for-game basis and in absolute sales.

Donkey Kong hardly created Mario. He wasn't even "Mario" yet, he was "Jumpman." And DK was just another villain. Mario Bros in 83 got much closer, and it wasn't until Super Mario Bros that he really became what he is now.

I think they were referring to in general sales, not just games. In which case Pokemon is actually the best selling media franchise ever.

I do agree with Mario though, he was basically just a sprite at that point. At least his name was on the cover in Mario Bros 83.

To move the topic back to FEs inclusion. I am actually incredibly happy with FEs stages. Castle Siege has a unique layout first form, and actually feels like a castle is being somewhat under siege. The two arena stages are actually different from one another despite the similar concept. And Garreg Mach Monestery is another cool moving stage. My biggest problem with FEs stages is that there aren’t more of them.

 

[Genoxys]

To move the topic back to FEs inclusion. I am actually incredibly happy with FEs stages. Castle Siege has a unique layout first form, and actually feels like a castle is being somewhat under siege. The two arena stages are actually different from one another despite the similar concept. And Garreg Mach Monestery is another cool moving stage. My biggest problem with FEs stages is that there aren’t more of them.

I'm not exactly on the same page. I like Garreg Mach and Arena Ferox, but the stages kind of have the same problems as the characters (other than those two stages.) The problem being: Generic stage that could work for any series, not actually a fire emblem location, but fun to use regardless. That's the characters too: Generic movesets that ignore characters' stats and abilities from Fire Emblem, but fun to use regardless. In other words: The stages are cool, but do they actually represent Fire Emblem well?

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I'm not exactly on the same page. I like Garreg Mach and Arena Ferox, but the stages kind of have the same problems as the characters (other than those two stages.) The problem being: Generic stage that could work for any series, not actually a fire emblem location, but fun to use regardless. That's the characters too: Generic movesets that ignore characters' stats and abilities from Fire Emblem, but fun to use regardless. In other words: The stages are cool, but do they actually represent Fire Emblem well?

This is probably once again my lack of FE experience lol, I can’t really comment on FEs representation since I don’t know how FE should be represented.
All I know is I enjoy playing them.

 

[crazybenjamin]

To me, it'd be with massive rewords of Lucina and Chrom. Give them their own moveset. As mentioned before, Lucina's masked more-rogue-oriented would really make her shine. Chrom needs something entirely different as well, although for him I'm not quite sure what to suggest. He's the third from Awakening, it's too much, even if he's popular. But with those two reworked, I think everybody would see how different all the characters play, and then it'd be easier to introduce new characters from the series.

The fact that so many people are demanding their removal because "Robin should be the only Awakening rep" proves that decloning Lucina/Chrom wouldn't appease the haters

(in general I find it hypocritical that certain people treat fan demand as the be all and end all, yet if Smash 6 cut Chrom or reduced him to a Marth alt they would be the first people to defend that decision)

 

[Ridley64]

I hop they don't cut Corrin. What they should do is hold a poll on the least popular Marth and Roy alts, then replace the least popular alts with Lucina and Chrom. This could free up spots. Corrin is a unique Fire Emblem character.

 

[Phoenixio]

The fact that so many people are demanding their removal because "Robin should be the only Awakening rep" proves that decloning Lucina/Chrom wouldn't appease the haters

I think it's both that made the fires. The fact that there's many FE reps, but also that there's 4 that ended up clones. Otherwise you get series like Pokemon that have tons of representatives, but they're all mostly unique, so whoever complains is not taken that seriously... So I think we could reach this same stage with FE, where people could argue there are more representatives than warranted, but at least they'd be unique and fun to play.

Right now you can always argue that they play differently in competitive, but in reality, 90% of the player base is casual and only sees characters that play mostly the same. That's what hurts the series the most, when even the masses get judgy.

 

[Lenidem]

I think it's both that made the fires. The fact that there's many FE reps, but also that there's 4 that ended up clones. Otherwise you get series like Pokemon that have tons of representatives, but they're all mostly unique, so whoever complains is not taken that seriously... So I think we could reach this same stage with FE, where people could argue there are more representatives than warranted, but at least they'd be unique and fun to play.

Right now you can always argue that they play differently in competitive, but in reality, 90% of the player base is casual and only sees characters that play mostly the same. That's what hurts the series the most, when even the masses get judgy.

I wonder why I seem to be the only one who complains more about Pokémon's than Fire Emblem's representation, precisely for that reason: echoes and clones don't take much development time, but full characters do. So Pokémon seems even more favorised than Fire Emblem : we could have full characters from another series (and echoes/clones from another series too, sure, but it's not as sexy).

 

[Quillion]

I wonder why I seem to be the only one who complains more about Pokémon's than Fire Emblem's representation, precisely for that reason: echoes and clones don't take much development time, but full characters do. So Pokémon seems even more favorised than Fire Emblem : we could have full characters from another series (and echoes/clones from another series too, sure, but it's not as sexy).

I personally complain about both actually. Both Pokémon and Fire Emblem need to stop trying to market their most recent new faces and go for the ones fans are established to like.

 

[crazybenjamin]

I think it's both that made the fires. The fact that there's many FE reps, but also that there's 4 that ended up clones.

Seems a bit contradictory though, if the clones were instead unique reps, that would just give even more ammo to the "FE takes up more dev time than it deserves" crowd. Conversely, if we actually had "8 Marths" like some people claim that we have, then the "FE takes up too much dev time" argument would be completely null and void

Right now you can always argue that they play differently in competitive, but in reality, 90% of the player base is casual and only sees characters that play mostly the same.

I'd argue it's the competitive crowd that gets all hung up over the existence of clones/echoes

 

[Phoenixio]

But where is that "dev time" argument even from anyways? You have to animate just as much stuff for a new character than for an echo. The numbers after that are probably just a spreadsheet to fill, and they're just as different for echoes as they are for new unique characters. So where is the difference in development time then? I argue it's probably not a huge difference between echoes and unique characters, overall. And we know most new characters usually start as clones of already completed ones... Sure Min-Min and Steve might have required new gimmicks to be worked on, but most characters before DLC didn't have gimmicks like that.

 

[Lenidem]

But where is that "dev time" argument even from anyways? You have to animate just as much stuff for a new character than for an echo. The numbers after that are probably just a spreadsheet to fill, and they're just as different for echoes as they are for new unique characters. So where is the difference in development time then? I argue it's probably not a huge difference between echoes and unique characters, overall. And we know most new characters usually start as clones of already completed ones... Sure Min-Min and Steve might have required new gimmicks to be worked on, but most characters before DLC didn't have gimmicks like that.

Sakurai himself said it. The so-called "clones" are done way quicker than full characters, hence their very existence. Even if he hadn't done any of Melee's clones, he wouldn't have had enough time to make a fully original fighter instead. Same with Lucina, Dark Pit and Dr Mario in Smash 4.

 

[Idon]

But where is that "dev time" argument even from anyways? You have to animate just as much stuff for a new character than for an echo. The numbers after that are probably just a spreadsheet to fill, and they're just as different for echoes as they are for new unique characters. So where is the difference in development time then? I argue it's probably not a huge difference between echoes and unique characters, overall. And we know most new characters usually start as clones of already completed ones... Sure Min-Min and Steve might have required new gimmicks to be worked on, but most characters before DLC didn't have gimmicks like that.

No, skeletons are made that do animations. Then a model is placed over the skeleton. Echoes, besides Ken, use the same skeleton and animations, just different models. That does take a lot of "dev time" out. They're essentially alt costumes with added bells and whistles.

 

[Genoxys]

I personally complain about both actually. Both Pokémon and Fire Emblem need to stop trying to market their most recent new faces and go for the ones fans are established to like.

I totally agree. I was so disappointed by incineroar's inclusion when there are so many extremely unique and cool Pokemon out there. They choose new characters over popular ones for both series'.

 

[Genoxys]

I hop they don't cut Corrin. What they should do is hold a poll on the least popular Marth and Roy alts, then replace the least popular alts with Lucina and Chrom. This could free up spots. Corrin is a unique Fire Emblem character.

It's just a shame because very few people like Corrin...at all. In fact, most of the FE fandom seems to agree that Corrin makes Fates a worse game rather than a better one. Corrin is cool in smash though. That's what makes it hard.

 

[Mamboo07]

I totally agree. I was so disappointed by incineroar's inclusion when there are so many extremely unique and cool Pokemon out there. They choose new characters over popular ones for both series'.

You mean the main characters with swords and Starter Pokemon?

 

[Quillion]

I totally agree. I was so disappointed by incineroar's inclusion when there are so many extremely unique and cool Pokemon out there. They choose new characters over popular ones for both series'.

The issue is that none of the other side units in Fire Emblem or "side Pokémon" get a ton of spotlight. The Lords and starter Pokémon get a lot of spotlight, but they are much less interesting than the alternatives.

 

[Mamboo07]

The issue is that none of the other side units in Fire Emblem or "side Pokémon" get a ton of spotlight. The Lords and starter Pokémon get a lot of spotlight, but they are much less interesting than the alternatives.

Remember that the final evolution of Fire Starters are bipedal and look like furries?

 

[Quillion]

Remember that the final evolution of Fire Starters are bipedal and look like furries?
View attachment 298145

Gonna be honest, I think this is the most "looking for something to complain about" complaint about Pokémon right now. There are a lot of things to complain about, sure, but THIS?

 

[Genoxys]

Gonna be honest, I think this is the most "looking for something to complain about" complaint about Pokémon right now. There are a lot of things to complain about, sure, but THIS?

Well, I was extremely disappointed when incineroar's final evolution design came out. I thought he'd be a cat but instead he became a human with cat features. I was excited for incineroar when I saw litten, basically, but ended up not wanting to go near the final evolution. A lot of people were praying incineroar would be four legged because it's way cooler.

 

[Genoxys]

The issue is that none of the other side units in Fire Emblem or "side Pokémon" get a ton of spotlight. The Lords and starter Pokémon get a lot of spotlight, but they are much less interesting than the alternatives.

It comes down to whether Nintendo wants to choose characters who are story important vs moveset potential vs popularity. They think story importance is the only thing that matters in FE.

 

[Quillion]

Well, I was extremely disappointed when incineroar's final evolution design came out. I thought he'd be a cat but instead he became a human with cat features. I was excited for incineroar when I saw litten, basically, but ended up not wanting to go near the final evolution. A lot of people were praying incineroar would be four legged because it's way cooler.

Still think it's dumb to judge a Pokémon by how many legs it stands on. Fire/Fighting being overdone I can understand, but now these plebeians feel they need to complain about something else.

 

[crazybenjamin]

Still think it's dumb to judge a Pokémon by how many legs it stands on. Fire/Fighting being overdone I can understand, but now these plebeians feel they need to complain about something else.

It comes across as goalpost moving

 

[Genoxys]

Still think it's dumb to judge a Pokémon by how many legs it stands on. Fire/Fighting being overdone I can understand, but now these plebeians feel they need to complain about something else.

I was never a huge part of the Pokemon fandom but was independently excited for sun and moon for a while. I saw Litten, got excited, and then was disappointed by his weird humanoid final evolution.

I have a personal preference for more animal-like Pokemon, as opposed to human-like ones. But there are definitely people who just want to be pissed at Pokemon and complain about it constantly. Some people need something to punch.

 

[SWSU]

Late to the party, but I think the simplest way to keep things in balance. For Ultimate, Nothings being done. It's set in stone.

Now for the next game, I'd keep it to two solid points.

1.) Assuming there are cuts, Adjust Fire Emblem Characters Proportionally. For Example, If we get 20 cuts for instance, 3 of them should be from Fire Emblem. Since there is going to be fat to cut in the Smash Roster overall for downsizing, they need to trim the fat in the Fire Emblem Roster first to get it down to a reasonable number.

2.) Sit the next game out. I know it sounds weird, but the big thing I hear from everyone in my circle is. Everyone trying to get into Smash is fighting to find a parking space in a crowded parking lot, tons of characters fighting over 4-5 parking spaces. While the new Fire Emblem Character has a spot reserved for them.

So I just think it'd go a long way towards people with a chip on their shoulder against Fire Emblem if nobody new was added for the next game, and the "Reserved for Fire Emblem" Parking Space was freed up. Then when Smash 7 comes around, and a new FE Rep is added. I dont think you'd have as many complaints.